Win at all costs - $35 Million

[blackcat]

"Jim, welcome to the club"

"Don't touch the golden locks....and thanks"

"Lets discuss budget for the next few years"

"I'll need a cool mill for me, coupla hunje for Bomber, and saaaaaaay $30m plus for the lads conditioning, they'll be in a good spot with that investment"

"Anything you say Messiah"

does he have his locks insured? with chubb? just his loins? not his lochs?

 

[blackcat]

As the matter draws to a close my overall feeling is this.

Hird and co rightly or wrongly believed every club was on the gear, and they were at a disadvantage.

right.
salient difference, no one else brings it in house, and it is the players as individuals, and groups, that take the initiative. fair difference that. differs even to tony doherty as your cough cough trainer

They decided to close this gap by bringing in the staff who specialise in this kind of activity. Dank may have sold himself by suggesting others were on the gear, again rightly or wrongly.

yeah, pretty stupid innit, smartest guys in the room stuff out at kew cottages and yarra boulevard

The operation was undertaken under a veil of secrecy. What was actually happening at the direction of a select few and what was actually communicated to the rest of the club were two slightly different things. "Pushing it right to the edge" but really over the cliff.

err no, this was not even muslin veil, this was a logical fallacy veil, ~40 listed players plus a mid age crisis coaching group doing the anti aging gear. u cant keep these secrets

It was sold to the players this way but also under the pretense it was top secret revolutionary program. Some probably guessed it was outside the rules, others probably just followed orders without giving much thought.

well, you cant legislate against stupidity and sublimating autonomy to be a part of the group. But they still had to exercise agency when they did sublimate to the group and king albert and his locks

The most disgusting thing to me was the attempted cover up once the poo hit the fan. I think Evans was on a course to throw the club to the mercy of the AFL and get it over quickly with minimal cost as possible.

not disgusting to me, things got interesting just as they slapped the injunctions on baker and mckenzie

Where this went awry is the egos of Hird and Dank, and their band of followers blindly following them. They thought they could outsmart ASADA with the AFL holding their hand as they weren't interested in upholding integrity just cutting the loss.

it went awry from the start, putting in orders to dope 40 athletes is gunna signal authorities. Getting lots of off-label PEDs, you are gunna involve organised crime and bikies. egos or hubris? whats the difference anyhow.

Thankfully McDevitt arrived on the scene and upheld the sports integrity with his tenacity to see it out.

integrity? dont make me laff. this is sport, and its entertainment, nothing less, nothing more

I have sympathy for the Essendon fans who understood what was happening. They didn't deserve this. But ultimately I feel the AFL punishment was light as was WADAs.

i have a troll concern. but i dont feel sympathy for idjits. they would be ferked if they were born 150 years back, i actually feel they were blessed to be born late last century

When you deny til you die, you should receive the standard 2 year punishment when found guilty. Backdated bans are rubbish.

if you dont exercise agency you are an automaton

The AFL punished Essendon for governance but are still yet to punish and amend records (including Brownlow) for the systematic drug regime they are now guilty of. I had high hopes for Gil but he is a just another Demetriou with a fresh face.

nah, Gillon is Hamish's brother, its in dem genes. dont feel sorry for him neither, dont legislate and enable stupidity

 

[Percel]

does he have his locks insured? with chubb? just his loins? not his lochs?

ness, ness and ness

 

[The 747]

That whole presser was a disaster.

Unfortunately for Hird, the worst efforts were his first and last words on the subject - which is what is so damaging. "I take full responsibility" which he admitted was a lie. "We'll be in a good place" which also had to be a lie given what he knew then and finally "pep types" at the end.

 

[jenny61_99]

Anything Beverly Knight says has to be taken with a grain of salt.

I will gladly say why.

This particular person has pretty much been outed as Caroline Wilson's chief "source" and her backgrounding to Caro about the goings-on at Essendon dates back as far as the move to oust Kevin Sheedy in 1998.

Very bitter woman.

Doesn't mean what she has to say is incorrect though.

 

[Lance Uppercut]

Unfortunately for Hird, the worst efforts were his first and last words on the subject - which is what is so damaging. "I take full responsibility" which he admitted was a lie. "We'll be in a good place" which also had to be a lie given what he knew then and finally "pep types" at the end.

yeah he had a shocker but I put it to you he should never have been there in the first place.

Essendon have not covered themselves in glory with any aspect of the whole saga. But the initial handling (and subsequently the rest of the handling) of the news becoming public and the resultant investigation was nothing short of catastrophic.

As I mentioned above, David Evans (if you'll excuse the comically mixed metaphors) simply shat the bed and dropped his dacks for Demetriou. That press conference was a disaster. Sitting in the glare of the media lights looking like death warmed up, as guilty as sin, was mind-blowingly stupid.

I've said it a number of times on our board, say what you like about someone like Eddie McGuire but he would never have allowed that ridiculous charade to go on if it was his club. He would have circled the wagons immediately and simply said "Nope. We are innocent, we've done nothing wrong. If you want to investigate go right ahead but bring a warrant and make sure you have good legal representation".

I know he's an AFL old boy as well, but his instinctive reaction would have been to fight and defend his club to the death. If EFC had have done that the end result might not have been any different, but Hird wouldn't have had to "take responsibility" and the public relations war that would wage for 3 years would have evolved from a very different initial setting, and the court of public opinion would not have been so overwhelmingly set on the end result, for a while at least.

 

[The 747]

yeah he had a shocker but I put it to you he should never have been there in the first place.

Essendon have not covered themselves in glory with any aspect of the whole saga. But the initial handling (and subsequently the rest of the handling) of the news becoming public and the resultant investigation was nothing short of catastrophic.

As I mentioned above, David Evans (if you'll excuse the comically mixed metaphors) simply shat the bed and dropped his dacks for Demetriou. That press conference was a disaster. Sitting in the glare of the media lights looking like death warmed up, as guilty as sin, was mind-blowingly stupid.

I've said it a number of times on our board, say what you like about someone like Eddie McGuire but he would never have allowed that ridiculous charade to go on if it was his club. He would have circled the wagons immediately and simply said "Nope. We are innocent, we've done nothing wrong. If you want to investigate go right ahead but bring a warrant and make sure you have good legal representation".

I know he's an AFL old boy as well, but his instinctive reaction would have been to fight and defend his club to the death. If EFC had have done that the end result might not have been any different, but Hird wouldn't have had to "take responsibility" and the public relations war that would wage for 3 years would have evolved from a very different initial setting, and the court of public opinion would not have been so overwhelmingly set on the end result, for a while at least.

Don't disagree - but one contextual element for mine is the differing groups that have power at your club. Eddie would do as you say, but he has the power to do it.

Evans tried to cut a deal, got undercut and gone - then Little came in with a "fight!" mandate and you were kinda stuck having cooperated then trying to fight against it and wound up nowhere good in the end.

 

[Lance Uppercut]

Don't disagree - but one contextual element for mine is the differing groups that have power at your club. Eddie would do as you say, but he has the power to do it.

Evans tried to cut a deal, got undercut and gone - then Little came in with a "fight!" mandate and you were kinda stuck having cooperated then trying to fight against it and wound up nowhere good in the end.

yep. I still think if Evans had the will he could have driven that response. But he had no stomach for it. He was the classic kid who got caught with his hand in the cookie jar and he just wanted to make it all go away and preserve his and his fathers legacy. Little wonder Hird was so angry and disgusted that Evans was happy to throw him under the bus when Evans himself was just as culpable but was conspiring with head office to burn Hird at the stake.

It was complicated by the fact that undoubtedly a central motivation of the Evans response was actually the right motivation: to save the players, at all costs if necessary. There were two problems with that though. The smaller one being that he offered Hird up instead of himself, for the reasons outlined above. But the biggest problem by far was that he and his AFL cronies were living in wonderland from day 1, somehow not understanding that the moment they called in the independent anti-doping body was the moment they lost any genuine capacity to manage the situation in the classic AFL way. Oh they tried, and they almost damn succeeded, until the NRL caught wind of the smoky back room deals; and then finally when asada were eventually forced to dump their impotent puppet leadership and hire someone with more tenacity, political independence and defiance, and dare I say it competence (at least in the political battles if not actual anti-doping). But ultimately Demetriou, Evans and Lukin were playing a game they couldn't win, and the end result is the gigantic mess we saw for 3 years - and that is on Evans no matter what. He should carry that for the rest of his days imo

 

[The 747]

yep. I still think if Evans had the will he could have driven that response. But he had no stomach for it. He was the classic kid who got caught with his hand in the cookie jar and he just wanted to make it all go away and preserve his and his fathers legacy. Little wonder Hird was so angry and disgusted that Evans was happy to throw him under the bus when Evans himself was just as culpable but was conspiring with head office to burn Hird at the stake.

It was complicated by the fact that undoubtedly a central motivation of the Evans response was actually the right motivation: to save the players, at all costs if necessary. There were two problems with that though. The smaller one being that he offered Hird up instead of himself, for the reasons outlined above. But the biggest problem by far was that he and his AFL cronies were living in wonderland from day 1, somehow not understanding that the moment they called in the independent anti-doping body was the moment they lost any genuine capacity to manage the situation in the classic AFL way. Oh they tried, and they almost damn succeeded, until the NRL caught wind of the smoky back room deals; and then finally when asada were eventually forced to dump their impotent puppet leadership and hire someone with more tenacity, political independence and defiance, and dare I say it competence (at least in the political battles if not actual anti-doping). But ultimately Demetriou, Evans and Lukin were playing a game they couldn't win, and the end result is the gigantic mess we saw for 3 years - and that is on Evans no matter what. He should carry that for the rest of his days imo

I don't think Evans' scalp would have cut it. Maybe Bomber, Weap, Dank and Reid (or some combination) could have worked, but as you said he couldn't (wouldn't) drive that sort of thing through.

I do find the Hird narrative that you (and other reasonable Bomber posters) run with almost compelling but I can't reconcile it with the public statements and behaviour from Hird over the saga. "Pep types".

On a side note, over the years I have heard things here and there about Hird (nothing satanic) but to the effect that the public persona (prior to saga) was very different to the reality. So perhaps I see what I expect to see. But still, "pep types", the research and the meet up with Charters.

 

[Lance Uppercut]

I don't think Evans' scalp would have cut it. Maybe Bomber, Weap, Dank and Reid (or some combination) could have worked, but as you said he couldn't (wouldn't) drive that sort of thing through.

I do find the Hird narrative that you (and other reasonable Bomber posters) run with almost compelling but I can't reconcile it with the public statements and behaviour from Hird over the saga. "Pep types".

On a side note, over the years I have heard things here and there about Hird (nothing satanic) but to the effect that the public persona (prior to saga) was very different to the reality. So perhaps I see what I expect to see. But still, "pep types", the research and the meet up with Charters.

really? I think that's incredibly easy to reconcile.

You can do it with just two words:

Plausible. Deniability.

 

[FFC_RoyBoys]

yeah he had a shocker but I put it to you he should never have been there in the first place.

Essendon have not covered themselves in glory with any aspect of the whole saga. But the initial handling (and subsequently the rest of the handling) of the news becoming public and the resultant investigation was nothing short of catastrophic.

As I mentioned above, David Evans (if you'll excuse the comically mixed metaphors) simply shat the bed and dropped his dacks for Demetriou. That press conference was a disaster. Sitting in the glare of the media lights looking like death warmed up, as guilty as sin, was mind-blowingly stupid.

I've said it a number of times on our board, say what you like about someone like Eddie McGuire but he would never have allowed that ridiculous charade to go on if it was his club. He would have circled the wagons immediately and simply said "Nope. We are innocent, we've done nothing wrong. If you want to investigate go right ahead but bring a warrant and make sure you have good legal representation".

I know he's an AFL old boy as well, but his instinctive reaction would have been to fight and defend his club to the death. If EFC had have done that the end result might not have been any different, but Hird wouldn't have had to "take responsibility" and the public relations war that would wage for 3 years would have evolved from a very different initial setting, and the court of public opinion would not have been so overwhelmingly set on the end result, for a while at least.

I think you are probably right in terms of Evans doing a deal with the AFL, possibly for the players benefit or equally possibly for his own benefit.

However, I cannot see that having Eddie as Prez would have made one jot of difference.

The whole self reporting jive was simply window dressing.

As far as I am aware, ASADA and the AFL have a very strong legally binding agreement which the AFL are powerless to do anything but abide by. Equally the AFL has a very strong and binding agreement with both the players and with EFC. As soon as this was an action by ASADA, short of outright corruption, the control was out of the AFL's and thus Essendon's entirely.

Little went full on attack dog legal and all that really did was to lengthen the time for the decision. Ultimately this case was always going to be heard at CAS.

Eddie would also be powerless to stop it.

 

[Satan]

Just started a thread on this before read here. Cuz think it's worth its own thread.

Did you get the ok from Lance Upper first?

 

[Privateye]

Interesting article quoting Beverley Knights in the age suggesting Evans and Robson were in it up to their eyeballs, Evans was impatient for a flag and then would take up his pre ordained place on the AFL commission. May be a clue as to why Hirdy had no hesitation in throwing Evans under the bus and why Evans accepted his fate so meekly.

Essendon fans love that surname.

 

[STFU Donnie]

But if another source said the same thing, wouldn't you just say they're a bitter individual who can't be trusted?

I see the pattern:
says something that is good toward Essendon, then the sun shines from their arse, and they shouldn't be fact checked because they're a good guy who would never lie, I mean, whey would they lie???
Says something bad toward Essendon, then a bitter individual, who everyone knows you can't trust. Wow, you must be an idiot if you trust what they say, they blab and white-ant to Caro!

Didn't Essendon actually have a budget item covering the briefings to Robbo? Or am I misremembering something?

 

[Satan]

Didn't Essendon actually have a budget item covering the briefings to Robbo? Or am I misremembering something?

No ,a lawyer admitted talking to Robbo and charged efc increments of 6 mins

 

[STFU Donnie]

No ,a lawyer admitted talking to Robbo and charged efc increments of 6 mins

But they still paid it?

 

[Satan]

But they still paid it?

Efc paid for everything else

 

[Tiger2709]

I've no issue with the AFL delaying this decision. It's best to wait until the appeal process has been exhausted. How awkward would it be to remove the Brownlow only to have to reinstate it following an, unlikely, appeal and re-hearing win...

There is no issue with waiting the appeal decision, what irritates me is Gill saying that it will be such a hard decision, when in reality it cant be more cut and dried, if the appeal is upheld Jobe keeps the Brownlow if it's not, he loses it, surely even the AFL wouldn't allow a convicted drug cheat to keep a fairest and best medal...surely?

 

[gavaniacono]

There is no issue with waiting the appeal decision, what irritates me is Gill saying that it will be such a hard decision, when in reality it cant be more cut and dried, if the appeal is upheld Jobe keeps the Brownlow if it's not, he loses it, surely even the AFL wouldn't allow a convicted drug cheat to keep a fairest and best medal...surely?

Famous last word.

 

[evo]

This is the thing though - it goes to the person's character..

Hird leaked to the press too.

QED

 

[less than zero]

No ,a lawyer admitted talking to Robbo and charged efc increments of 6 mins

it was increments of 6 inches without lube

 

[RegHickeyStand]

Interesting article quoting Beverley Knights in the age suggesting Evans and Robson were in it up to their eyeballs, Evans was impatient for a flag and then would take up his pre ordained place on the AFL commission. May be a clue as to why Hirdy had no hesitation in throwing Evans under the bus and why Evans accepted his fate so meekly.

Other than Knights saying so, what else does she have.

With regard to Evans, I would think he knew about it by sep/oct 2012. And most definitely knew about a supp program prior. But up to his eyeballs in it? Where are the texts, the meetings, the emails, the vanity drug taking? Need roof.

 

[Laphroaig]

As I said from the outset, take Knight's comments with a grain of salt. If the source was far more credible..as in Evans or Robson, then I would actually believe it.

You don't want to think that one through a bit more?

 

[Seadog]

Other than Knights saying so, what else does she have.

With regard to Evans, I would think he knew about it by sep/oct 2012. And most definitely knew about a supp program prior. But up to his eyeballs in it? Where are the texts, the meetings, the emails, the vanity drug taking? Need roof.

Well to be fair, "up to the eyeballs in it" was my phrase not hers. There is a possibility I may have indulged in some embroidery.

 

[Laphroaig]

Other than Knights saying so, what else does she have.

With regard to Evans, I would think he knew about it by sep/oct 2012. And most definitely knew about a supp program prior. But up to his eyeballs in it? Where are the texts, the meetings, the emails, the vanity drug taking? Need roof.

The AOD Project and all associated revenue streams?