- May 3, 2007
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So Ross lyon has never given youth a go?
Review Winners and losers of the draft (2018 edition)
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In both St Kilda and Freo he inherited very good lists and persisted with those lists with minimum youth introduction. This resulted in a determination in performance due to the lack of development. As I said, the last few years he has been forced to play kids.
Topkent
Confirmed ITK Drafting King
He also made GFs with both ******* lists. Jeez there is some absoloute horse s**t written about Ross Lyon
Blackas87
Brownlow Medallist
Yes he inherited good lists, so why would he change them? He took both those lists to Grand finals, So there was no reason for him to rebuild those lists until now when Freo have dropped off.
It's not about changing them it's about giving kids exposure and recognising when some players are losing form or simply getting past it. He's not alone and it is hard dropping players for games after good service but unless you do it in one form or another, then your list will stagnate and a whole bunch of experienced players will leave at the one time and the kids will be then thrown in the deep end without good guidance on field.
- Oct 5, 2004
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- Richmond
1. Walsh
2. Rozee
3. Clark
4. Blakey
5. Butters
6. Duursma
7. Jones
That’s with only 4 of the top 10 showing much so far.
Can’t wait to see the rest of this class.
Gonna be a good draft.
2. Rozee
3. Clark
4. Blakey
5. Butters
6. Duursma
7. Jones
That’s with only 4 of the top 10 showing much so far.
Can’t wait to see the rest of this class.
Gonna be a good draft.
Peel67skin
Norm Smith Medallist
- May 21, 2017
- 8,387
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- Banned
- #457
SPP steal , Sydney Stack .
gcsunsfc
Cancelled
- Oct 24, 2012
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Rankine showed enough in jlt to give you an idea of how good he’ll be.
Didn’t get much of it and only played low game time but amazing boundary line goal followed by a set shot with man on the mark at 53m.
On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app
Wait...
I legit thought you guys had gone mad, then wrote a post, then double checked before I clicked post and found out freo did indeed make a grand final
I reckon I’m not the only one that wouldn’t remember.
Extremely happy. It’s early but wow.
Also going under the radar we also picked up Grundy woodcock pudney cox and Frederick
Those are all long term prospects some won’t make it but Pudney is averaging 27d 2 games into his senior career in the sanfl which is absurd.
- Jul 6, 2017
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Rozee is your next Robbie Gray but dare I say it, he might be even quicker than Gray. If he keeps up that sort of form he will absolutely walk the rising star in.
He is special. I won’t hold my breathe for performances like that every week though just yet but his ceiling is very high.
Everyone says Robbie gray but I’ve said elsewhere I don’t see the comparison at all.
He is more explosive athlete than smart body work in the marking contest and other differences as well.
I’m guessing when he goes into the middle he might play like a more explosive Scott Pendlebury.
I would still have money (and do) on Walsh to win the rising star but Rozee and butters will be right up there.
- Jul 6, 2017
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I think the robbie gray comparison is because he damages you with every possession, moves similarly in terms of being evasive and has a real eye for goal...but hey, splitting hairs - you guys have a super kid. I just Hope Chayce Jones can evolve into the next Rory Sloane for us!!
Dare you say it? Robbie gray isn’t quick at all! Definitely has him in the speed department
- May 5, 2006
- 62,726
- 70,017
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This.
St Kilda battled it out with Geelong and Collingwood in 2009/10. They went 11-13-20-15-12 under Lyon and then he bailed. Following his departure they've gone 12-5-4-6-12-11-4.
Freo battled it out with Hawthorn/Geelong/Sydney in 2013/14/15. They have gone 14-16-16-17-4-8-8 since Lyon took over.
Geelong after 2011 have a worst season result of 11-1-9. Hawthorn since their last flag have gone 17-10-15. Sydney since their last GF have gone 16-17-14-14. It's only really Collingwood who gradually fell away after 2011 and even their worst result is a 9 win season and they seem to have turned it around. Even West Coast who were a rival to Freo in just 2015 have won 16-12-16 games the last 3 seasons.
The hallmark of Ross Lyon teams seems to be to get as close as you can with the talent you have, eek it out another season or two and then fall in a hole. The only real difference between St Kilda and Freo is that he didn't jump ship to another club with a ready made list so is doing the hard yards from the bottom up. For whatever reason his teams just don't manage player turnover as well as others. I think we had 10 changes from the 2015 GF to 2018. Geelong have a handful of flag players running around, Hawthorn 7 or 8, Sydney a handful. Why don't these teams collapse in a heap but Ross Lyon coached teams do?
Ian Dunross
Premiership Player
- Mar 18, 2013
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Might have a bit to do with Stephen Wells and Graham Wright.
- May 5, 2006
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And teams other than Geelong and Hawthorn?
Tom Lynch, 1 game in Rd 18 of his second year on the list. Been great for Adelaide.
Jack Steven, 1 game in Rd 18 of his second year on the list, 8 in his third. Barely missed a game since 2011 and won a stack of B&Fs.
Jamie Cripps, 4 games under Lyon then 12 under Watters in his two years on the list. Been great for us.
Meanwhile Rosco was busy getting games into 24 year old Ryan Gamble, 25 year old Dean Polo, 28 year old Brett Peake, persisting with Andrew McQualter, Farren Ray, Clint Jones etc. Guys like Armitage take 5 years to get to 50 games.
Same thing happened at Freo. Minimal change to the 22 for a few years, then the cliff came in 2016 and they had no one to step up. Brad Hill is 26 this year and has played 130 games. Nathan Wilson the same age and 101. Freo have Crozier (69) and Sheridan (81) gone, and Neale gone on 135. Hughes a year younger and 35 games, Grey 24 and gone, Sutcliffe a year older and gone, Langdon 49 games in 5 years, Blakely 46 in 4. Cupboard pretty bare from 2011-2014, but if you debuted pre-Lyon or form 2016 onward you're good.
We all love awards and love for our players to be winning them, but in a team game you just want all the cogs working in unison.
The three players Port picked up last year, already seem to be the right types to warrant games on a needs basis and then by value to the team.
Great recruiting by Port.
TheFVK
Norm Smith Medallist
- Mar 21, 2008
- 7,504
- 27,014
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- Port Adelaide
Exactly this. Stars are great for the highlight reel and pulling people through the gate, but if they're not pulling their weight going the other way and doing the team thing they're not much chop. Port above all learnt this the last couple years.
I think people are getting confused with the Robbie Gray comparison, with the quick hands through traffic it's Butters that most Port supporters would liken to Robbie Gray.
Personally can't pick a decent comparison for Rozee just yet.
Ian Dunross
Premiership Player
- Mar 18, 2013
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Tom Lynch played the same position as Nick Riewoldt... And offered zero defensive pressure. It took him 3 seasons to establish himself in a middling Adelaide team, yet you expect him to break into a top 4 team in his first 2 seasons.
Jack Steven was an underager when drafted and wasn't fit for regular senior footy in 2009 or 2010.
Why would a first year player play more than 4 games, especially when it took him years to establish himself as a good senior player.
Lyon blooded Neale, made Fyfe his star player, blooded Blakely, Taberner, Walters, Pearce...
Yeah, he really stifled youth at Fremantle.
- May 5, 2006
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Tom Lynch has managed to forge a career alongside Tex Walker and Josh Jenkins, and previously Kurt Tippett. I don't expect any player to break in to a good side straight away, but as above St Kilda persisted with plenty of mid 20s potatoes which contributed to their undoing.
Fyfe and Walters were playing before Lyon arrived. I don't think recognising Fyfe as a gun after his first two years was that difficult. Neale was a bit part player for his first two years behind Lyon's foot soldiers.
Of the 2013 GF side the following players debuted in 2012 or 2013 under Lyon: Danyle Pearce (26), Zac Dawson (26), Lee Spurr (24), Lachie Neale (18), Cameron Sutcliffe (20). You could say the same about Adam Simpson in 2015 making a GF in his second year, but he didn't then just persist with the same 22 every year. Freo's team to start 2016 was pretty much the same team they had in 2012/13 minus any players that retired.
As I said, since 2016 Lyon has given as much opportunity to young players as anyone. But 2007-2015 isn't erased from history. He ran St Kilda's list into the ground and then he did the same with Freo. The only difference is he has stuck around at Freo for the next wave. There's not much to show for the early 2010s draft periods other than guys like Lobb, Wilson, Hill, Hamling who were traded in from elsewhere. Just like St Kilda had not much to show from the late 2000s. It's the Ross Lyon effect, it's what he does. He focuses on players aged 23/24 to 30s because they are physically ready for AFL football. He builds a structure and game plan around the core of players he has then runs with it for a few years with minimal changes in personnel or strategy. This isn't really news. He'll get you a team that wins more than it loses for 3, 4, 5 years but his focus is in the now.
Ian Dunross
Premiership Player
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There are 3 players from that period who had legitimate claims to be AFL footballers from the Lyon era, Steven, Armitage and Lynch. That is how badly St Kilda drafted during that time. Only Armitage had claims to feel shafted during Lyon's coaching. Steven and Lynch were both too young and unfit and unready to warrant games.
Talk to a Fremantle supporter ask if they are happy with their club's drafting during those years. Ask them about Josh Simpson as a first rounder. The club drafted terribly more often than not.
Walters was sent to train with the WAFL side by Lyon for failing to be in shape. Then he was supported to the hilt by Lyon when he started acting like a pro.
Fyfe was in his 3rd year when Lyon started.
Lyon blooded Weller, Tucker, Ryan, Blakely.
The facts don't support the narrative.
Lyon will play kids if they're good enough. See Neale, Fyfe, Walters, etc.
Only Armitage could complain about not getting some games during his time at St Kilda, and even then, he was known to be a party boy and not a great pro.
Would’ve helped if every single first rounder from 2009 to 2015 wasn’t a bust either.
Morabito was better than Fyfe in their first year. I highly doubt he’d have reached Fyfe’s level but he would have been an absolute gun.
Jayden Pitt was the wrong selection from the start but was a rake when he started and got a heart condition that forced his retirement at 21 before he’d started to be a decent option for selection.
Sheridan played in a final in his second year. He played 40 games in two years from 2015 to 2016. His body was built up to the level and then he was given heaps of chances but didn’t take them. Ross Lyon dropped Paul Duffield who was our best ball user to fit him in in 2015. Crozier wasn’t ready until at least his third year yet debuted in his first. Again was given plenty of opportunities he never took.
Simpson was a joke selection. Even before he was drafted he couldn’t cope with Perth. Talent wise he was a top five selection.
Apeness had had ACL injuries before he’d been drafted and continued to be nothing but knee injury after knee injury in his time with us. Was the wrong selection. I think the club wanted McCarthy tbh and panicked knowing we needed talls desperately - at this time only Taberner of our current KPPs was on our list.
Weller was good for a while with us but pissed off. Was 100% worth a first rounder in 2017 but not Pick 2.
We traded our first back to a very early second in 2015, Tucker was that second and I doubt he’s played less than 15 games in a year tbh.
Maybe if our first rounders weren’t so rubbish...
Also the Blakely and Langdon claims are just false. Firstly they were drafted the same year and the above poster said one had been playing longer. Secondly I doubt either has played WAFL since their second or third year - both are clearly best 22 players and would be for most teams. And Hughes as an example of not playing youth... the guy was plucked from WAFL Reserves as a rookie a couple of years after converting from another sport. It’s almost a pass mark from the club he played a single game of AFL at all!
Drafting of first rounders is the major problem here. Ultimately we used high resources and got nothing from 2009 to 2013. Morabito was the only one that was genuine bad luck - the rest just poor drafting.
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