Society/Culture Woke. Can you tell real from parody?

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the_interloper

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That's on you. Either you're not informed, or you don't find racism that objectionable, if it isn't overt.


"The left call everything they don't like, racist". Is a right wing talking point that's lost gleam over the years.
There's all kinds of lunatics on social media. But the line was used to defend many of the main mouthpieces for the right.

That's an interesting take ha ha, but if it makes you happy I'm ok with it.

And this is pretty close to my original point to be honest
 

Seeds

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'Racist' actually has a meaning though, as in you can actually get racist people. What is 'woke'? How many people actually suffer due to someone being 'woke' or due to 'wokeness' in society?
everyone eventually suffers because the left wing woke undo all the left wing liberals good work in trying to create a harmonious intelligent culturally diverse colourblind meritocratic society.
 

CM86

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everyone eventually suffers because the left wing woke undo all the left wing liberals good work in trying to create a harmonious intelligent culturally diverse colourblind meritocratic society.
For example?
 

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Seeds

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Well, where we disagree is what we consider racism or a racist. Maybe we can find some common ground?

Trump. Racist?
Actions and beliefs are racist. Some people just believe and act more racist then others.

what action is racist? And why is racism wrong in such a context? Thats where the discussion should be. Not on, is he racist?

ps. studies show everyone is racist. There are ofcourse different magnitudes and diferent quantities.

you achieve nothign by saying is someone racist or not.
 

CM86

Anindilyakwa
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Actions and beliefs are racist. Some people just believe and act more racist then others.

what action is racist? And why is racism wrong in such a context? Thats where the discussion should be. Not on, is he racist?

ps. studies show everyone is racist. There are ofcourse different magnitudes and diferent quantities.

you achieve nothign by saying is someone racist or not.
Boring old talking point.


What is morality?
Everyone is a rule breaker so why have laws.


That does nothing but enable the growth of racism. You're position is that it shouldn't be called out.
 

Father Jack

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Actions and beliefs are racist. Some people just believe and act more racist then others.

what action is racist? And why is racism wrong in such a context? Thats where the discussion should be. Not on, is he racist?

ps. studies show everyone is racist. There are ofcourse different magnitudes and diferent quantities.

you achieve nothign by saying is someone racist or not.
Yes, racists don't like being called racist for some reason, we know that.
 

Seeds

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For example?
Moving away from meritocracy leads to terrible outcomes for long run prosperity. numerous studies of civlisations will show this.

moving away from sharing cultures leads to terrible outcomes for long run prosperity. numerous studies of civilisation shows this.

claiming sex, gender and race is critical to ones identity makes people group others into sex, gender and race. This creates in and out group mentalities based on what should be superficial differences which leads to unjust discrimination and dehumanisation. There is a reason why the old school racists in the conservatives are emerging again. Because the woke turned race into an important determinant of identity again. Just after liberals spent a century trying to squash such notions.
 

CM86

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Moving away from meritocracy leads to terrible outcomes for long run prosperity. numerous studies of civlisations will show this.

moving away from sharing cultures leads to terrible outcomes for long run prosperity. numerous studies of civilisation shows this.

claiming sex, gender and race is critical to ones identity makes people group others into sex, gender and race. This creates in and out group mentalities based on what should be superficial differences which leads to unjust discrimination and dehumanisation. There is a reason why the old school racists in the conservatives are emerging again. Because the woke turned race into an important determinant of identity again. Just after liberals spent a century trying to squash such notions.
This is what I was talking about, when I was saying your position is based on the belief that we have/had reached equality.


Your position requires us to have equality. But if you're pushed on equality, you'll point out that we're better than other countries, or we're better than we used to be, or it's near enough as makes no difference etc etc.

Your position only holds, if we actually have/had reached equality.
 

Seeds

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Boring old talking point.


What is morality?
Everyone is a rule breaker so why have laws.


That does nothing but enable the growth of racism. You're position is that it shouldn't be called out.
You have completely missed the point.

i believe in moral behaviour. I wasnt pointing to nihilism.

i wasnt saying everyone commits racist actions and therefore everyones the same. In fact i was pointing out the opposite. Not all racist actions are the same. they vary widely in terms of impact or intent. And the quantity of actions also differe greatly. your simplistic question. Is he racist? Gets to the bottom of none of this. For everyone the answer is yes.
 

CM86

Anindilyakwa
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You have completely missed the point.

i believe in moral behaviour. I wasnt pointing to nihilism.

i wasnt saying everyone commits racist actions and therefore everyones the same. In fact i was pointing out the opposite. Not all racist actions are the same. they vary widely in terms of impact or intent. And the quantity of actions also differe greatly. your simplistic question. Is he racist? Gets to the bottom of none of this. For everyone the answer is yes.
Yes.

You're normalising racism.
 

Father Jack

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Moving away from meritocracy leads to terrible outcomes for long run prosperity. numerous studies of civlisations will show this.

moving away from sharing cultures leads to terrible outcomes for long run prosperity. numerous studies of civilisation shows this.

claiming sex, gender and race is critical to ones identity makes people group others into sex, gender and race. This creates in and out group mentalities based on what should be superficial differences which leads to unjust discrimination and dehumanisation. There is a reason why the old school racists in the conservatives are emerging again. Because the woke turned race into an important determinant of identity again. Just after liberals spent a century trying to squash such notions.
Yes, strawmen are very important when you want to define 'woke', that way you can pretend things are true even when they're patently ridiculous!
 

the_interloper

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Yes, racists don't like being called racist for some reason, we know that.

Ha ha I’ve heard this one before. I think more correctly no one likes being called racist (save for some extreme right wingers I guess), so if you label someone that it doesn’t mean they are racist. In my opinion of course.
 

Father Jack

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Ha ha I’ve heard this one before. I think more correctly no one likes being called racist (save for some extreme right wingers I guess), so if you label someone that it doesn’t mean they are racist. In my opinion of course.
It often gets used to call out dogwhistling, and then the person tries to act outraged about being called out for it. Their language is often not overtly racist, but the meaning is quite clear.
 

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Chief

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Actions and beliefs are racist. Some people just believe and act more racist then others.
So a person who believes racist stuff and acts in a racist manner can be safely called "a racist".

OOO! But to what level? Can ANY OF US say we aren't racist?! OOOooOOOoO!!

Of course we can always examine our own thoughts and actions. Try to improve. Of course we can. That doesn't excuse the obvious racist crap that some people go on with, having no intention of learning or growing out of those shitty beliefs.
 

Chief

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It's more subtle than that.

"International bankers" has a pretty distinct meaning to a distinct group.

"
Every now and again, a politician might, in a moment of candor, fess up. (David Kuo, a White House staffer under George W. Bush, reports — referring to speeches by Bush — that "we threw in a few obscure turns of phrase known clearly to any evangelical, yet unlikely to be noticed by anyone else." Lee Atwater’s infamous remarkson how to imply the n-word without saying it also come to mind: "You say stuff like, uh, forced busing, states’ rights…")

But accusations of dog whistling are generally met with exasperated denials."

"there might be other words and phrases whose semantic prosody varies across varieties of English to which different people are differentially exposed. I think the right’s use of the president’s full name — "Barack Hussein Obama" — falls into this category (to the extent that it isn’t a shamelessly overt attempt to make people think Obama is a Muslim). Among people who consume media that mentions Muslims primarily in contexts that stoke fear and distrust, the name "Hussein" will evoke those attitudes. Among people whose media diets (and personal experiences) contain more positive representations of Muslims, the name "Hussein" might remind them of the late Iraqi ruler, but perhaps won’t carry the same sort of emotional weight."

 
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Seeds

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So a person who believes racist stuff and acts in a racist manner can be safely called "a racist".

OOO! But to what level? Can ANY OF US say we aren't racist?! OOOooOOOoO!!

Of course we can always examine our own thoughts and actions. Try to improve. Of course we can. That doesn't excuse the obvious racist crap that some people go on with, having no intention of learning or growing out of those shitty beliefs.
No it doesnt excuse it. thats my point. By asking if trump is racist then you dont differentiate his beliefs and actions from everyone elses. You have to go deeper then a yes/no question on racism to differentiate those with strong racist beliefs and actions.
 

Seeds

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Was just listening to abc radio national

it had a woke academic guest who said:

conservatives have it more right then liberals because they view people as belonging to groups (i.e. races, sexes etc) whereas liberals are completely wrong cos they view people as individuals.

yep i kid you not.

he also said he doesnt understand liberals who bare no responsibility for the past because they see themselves as individuals. He was clearly distressed by people who see themselves and others as individuals. how do we rationalise with such people he exasperated. We instead, he argued, have to see ourselves as people linked to our ancestors and our future descendents he argued. I.e. the sort of backwards bloodline thinking that justified monarchies and discrimination based on race and sex.

this is what woke people think. The radio national host just nodded along. Never questioning it.

please dont tell me woke people dont exist Chief.
 
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Ghost Patrol

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Was just listening to abc radio national

it had a woke academic guest who said:

conservatives have it more right then liberals because they view people as belonging to groups (i.e. races, sexes etc) whereas liberals are wrong cos they view people as individuals.

yep i kid you not.

he also said he doesnt understand liberals who bare no responsibility for the past because they see themselves as individuals. He was clearly distressed by people who see themselves and others as individuals. how do we rationalise with such people he exaspersted. We instead, he argued, have to see ourselves as people linked by bloodlines to our ancestors and our future descendents he argued. I.e. the sort of backwards thinking that justified monarchies and discrimination based on race and sex.

this is what woke people think. The radio national host just nodded along. Never questioning it.

please dont tell me woke people dont exist Chief. Are not a thing.

Remember when you labelled a certain group as 'private drivers' in that infamous roundabout analogy?
 

Ghost Patrol

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You have to explain that one. I dont remember that?

You wanted to cancel private drivers. I'm surprised you can't remember.

Are roundabouts woke?



 

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