Won A Brownlow Medal but not club B & F in the same year

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BigRex

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Won A Brownlow Medal but not club B & F in the same year
Brownlow WinnerClub winner2nd3rd4th5th6th7th8th9th10th
1925​
WatsonGambettaWatson
1930​
HopkinsMcAlphineHopkins
1946​
CordnerMuellerCordner
1950​
RuthvenStephenRuthven
1956​
BoxRossBoxJ.Collins
1965​
StewartBaldockStewart
1973​
GreigDavisRantallFelthamGoodinghamGreig
1974​
GreigRantall 197Greig 177Schimma 176Davis 159Montgomery 154
1981​
QuinlanAlexander 140Quinlan 131G.Wilson 90
1982​
B.WilsonIcke 388Flower 324B.Wilson 271
1984​
MooreGerard Healy 362Moore 306Jarrott 292
1985​
HardieHawkins 233Wallis 207Royal 199Hardie 168Beasley
1986​
DipperAyres 42Buckenara 41Platten 35Langford 32Loveridge 26Dunstall 25Wallace 25Tuck 23Dipper 23Dear 22
1986​
WilliamsGerard HealyWilliams
1990​
LibbaFoster 132McGuinness 127Wallace 126Atkins 119Liberatore 115Eppelstun 115
1993​
WanganeenO'DonnellHarveyWanganeen
1995​
KellyLockettKelly
2001​
AkermanisBlack 65Voss 65Lappin 61Akermanis 57Ashcroft 55
2007​
BartelAblett 691Bartel 513Ling 502
2008​
CooneyCross 191Cooney 167Boyd 163
2011​
SwanPendlebury 65Swan 54T.Cloke 53
2014​
PriddisMacKenzie 201Priddis 190Shuey 148
2015​
FyfeSandilands 282Mundy 277S.Hill 261Fyfe 260Walters 244
2005​
BrownlowCousins 20Kerr 19
2005​
WCE B & FCousins 1stKerr 8th
 

BigRex

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Sep 29, 2010
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From my research, the worst club B & F placings for a Brownlow Medalist from that year were:

8th (equal) - Dipper 1986
5th (equal) - Libba 1990
4th - Greig 1973
4th - Hardie 1985
4th - Akermanis 2001
4th - Fyfe 2015
3rd - B.Wilson 1982
3rd - Wanganeen 1993

Daniel Kerr finished 2nd in the 2005 Brownlow Medal with 19 votes.

Cousins won the 2005 Brownlow with 20 votes.

Kerr finished 8th in the WCE 2005 B & F.

He was 201-1 to win the Brownlow and would of been the winner with the longest odds if he had of won it.

Priddis was 41-1 but Dipper, Libba, Brian Wilson and Keith Greig would of had longer odds.
 

BigRex

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Dipper wins the 1986 Brownlow but finishes 8th in the 1986 Hawks B & F, the lowest in history of any Brownlow winner.

Ayres didn't poll a Brownlow vote in 1986

1986 Hawthorn B & F votes:

42 - Ayres
41 - Buckenara
35 - Platten
32 - Langford
26 - Loveridge
25 - Dunstall
25 - Wallace
23 - Tuck
23 - DiPierdomenico (1986 Brownlow Medalist)
22 - G.Dear

Footscray Best and Fairest's and votes:

1985 B & F:

233 - Doug Hawkins
207 - Stephen Wallis
199 - Brian Royal
168 - Brad Hardie (1985 Brownlow Medalist)

1990 B & F:

132 - Peter Foster
127 - Tony McGuinness
126 - Terry Wallace
119 - Simon Atkins
115 - Greg Eppelstun
115 - Tony Liberatore (1990 Brownlow Medalist)
 

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BigRex

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Tony Liberatore

1983 - 4th in Morrish Medal (VFL Under 19's B & F) as a 17 year old for Nth Melb Under 19's - 14 votes

1984 - Wins Morrish Medal (VFL Under 19's B & F) playing for Nth Melb Under 19's- 22 votes. 1984 Under 19's Premiership player for Nth Melb alongside Peter German, Darren Crocker, Mick Gayfer & Lazor Vidovic.

1985 - Plays for Nth Melb in U19's Grand Final loss to Richmond. Plays under Denis Pagan (Nth Melb Under 19's coach) for 1983-85.

1986 - Crosses to Footscray. Plays 4 senior games and win the Gardiner Medal (VFL Reserves B & F) with 22 votes.

1987 - Plays 12 senior games, the rest in the Footscray reserves.

1988 - Plays 1 senior game. Wins the Gardiner Medal (VFL Reserves B & F) with 19 votes. 1988 Reserves Premiership player for Footscray alongside Scott Wynd, Simon Atkins, Stephen Macpherson, Ron James, Stuart Wigney, Brian Cordy, Phil Cronan & Mark Athorn.

1989 - Plays 1 senior game. Footscray reserves captain. 3rd in the Gardiner Medal with 15 votes. Plays 18 senior games for Footscray over 4 years under coach Mick Malthouse. Malthouse is replaced by Wheeler in the 1989/1990 off season.

1990 - Left out of Footscray pre season night series squad. New coach Terry Wheeler plays him in Round 1. Libba wins Brownlow Medal 6 months later although he misses the last 3 games of the home and away season. Finishes equal 5th in the 1990 Footscray B & F.

Two flags, three Grand Finals, three comp B & Fs and five top 4 finishes for 2 clubs over 7 seasons before he wins his Brownlow! Remarkable.
 
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Adelaide Hawk

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I've never felt comfortable with the prestige attached to the Brownlow. It has its place, it's an umpires' award. That's fine. But why it carries the prestige of being the single most important individual award in football is a mystery to me.

If I were an AFL footballer, the greatest individual honour they could bestow upon me would be Best & Fairest for my club in a premiership season. I'd treasure that far more than a Brownlow.
 
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Wallaby

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Which pretty much explains why I hold little stock in Brownlows. Ayres was magnificent in 1986 and topped his season off with a B.O.G. performance in the Grand Final.
Geoff Raines pretty similar - Won B&F - Brownlow favourite - polled zero - pretty damn close to BOG in GF (there were probably 3 in the running - Bartlett, Lee, and Raines. I thought Raines was best, but they were always going to give it to Bartlett - the script had almost been written before).
 

BigRex

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Having sorted through the available statistics for all 22 games in 1980, it is fair to say that Raines’ favouritism for the Brownlow may have been wishful thinking.

Should Raines have won the 1980 Brownlow?

No, he shouldn’t have, and looking at the performances of his teammates on the days Raines did excel, it’s easy to see why.

Should he have polled votes? Yes, he should’ve, but not a copious amount.

Somewhere in the vicinity of 6-8 votes may have been a fair return for Raines, but there are some games that just had too many Richmond stars performing at their peak.

 

Chaisa

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Geoff Raines pretty similar - Won B&F - Brownlow favourite - polled zero - pretty damn close to BOG in GF (there were probably 3 in the running - Bartlett, Lee, and Raines. I thought Raines was best, but they were always going to give it to Bartlett - the script had almost been written before).
IIRC a similar thing happened to Brett Ratten in 95.
 

BigRex

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Geoff Raines pretty similar - Won B&F - Brownlow favourite - polled zero - pretty damn close to BOG in GF (there were probably 3 in the running - Bartlett, Lee, and Raines. I thought Raines was best, but they were always going to give it to Bartlett - the script had almost been written before).
In 1980 and years before and after saw many ruckman, key forwards, key backs and backman poll well in the Brownlow Medal.

9 of the top 14 in the 1980 Brownlow placings weren't on ballers: Kelvin Templeton, Merv Neagle, Rod Blake, Peter Moore, Chris Smith, Mark Lee, Gary Dempsey, Ross Glendinning and Val Perovic.

Remember Richmond finished 3rd in the 1980 home and away season.

Richmond votes in the 1980 Brownlow Medal:

16 - Mark Lee
10 - David Cloke
9 - Kevin Bartlett
8 - Francis Bourke
8 - Jim Jess
8 - Michael Roach
5 - Dennis Collins
4 - Barry Rowlings
4 - Dale Weightman
2 - Robert Wiley
2 - Bruce Monteath
1 - Stephen Mount

Top 6 votes were ruckman, key forwards, forward pockets, key backs and backman. Not 1 on baller.

Wingman Bryan Wood played 23 games in 1980, had the 5th most amount of touches for the Tigers and didn't poll a Brownlow vote.

Raines did poll well in 1978 (equal 7th) and in 1979 with approx the same amount of touches as he got in the 22 home and away games for 1980.

Perhaps a maximum of 10 votes for Raines would of been forthcoming in 1980. Perhaps he back chatted a few umps, was a bit dirty on the field in 1980?

Ump Peter Cameron didn't like him and possibly told other umps to not award him votes.
 

BigRex

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IIRC a similar thing happened to Brett Ratten in 95.
The 1995 pre-count Brownlow Medal favourites

3-1 - Wayne Carey
4-1 - Wayne Campbell
10-1 - Peter Matera
12-1 - James Hird
12-1 - Craig Bradley
15-1 - Garry Hocking
17-1 - Darren Jarman
21-1 - Michael Long
23-1 - Wayne Schwass
25-1 - Paul Kelly

Ratten didn't poll a single vote in 1995 but wasn't in the top 10 fancies. Ratten only polled 1 Brownlow vote in his first 6 seasons (97 games) at Carlton.


1995 Carlton Best and Fairest Votes

1 - Brett Ratten - 174 Votes
2 - Craig Bradley - 128 Votes
3 - Stephen Silvagni - 118 Votes
4 - Earl Spalding - 117 Votes
5 - Fraser Brown - 105 Votes
6 - Anthony Koutoufides - 101 Votes
6 - Justin Madden - 101 Votes
8 - Matt Clape - 84 Votes
9 - Stephen Kernahan - 74 Votes
10 - Ang Christou - 73 Votes
10 - Andrew McKay - 73 Votes
 

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Breretonisahood

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In 1980 and years before and after saw many ruckman, key forwards, key backs and backman poll well in the Brownlow Medal.

9 of the top 14 in the 1980 Brownlow placings weren't on ballers: Kelvin Templeton, Merv Neagle, Rod Blake, Peter Moore, Chris Smith, Mark Lee, Gary Dempsey, Ross Glendinning and Val Perovic.

Remember Richmond finished 3rd in the 1980 home and away season.

Richmond votes in the 1980 Brownlow Medal:

16 - Mark Lee
10 - David Cloke
9 - Kevin Bartlett
8 - Francis Bourke
8 - Jim Jess
8 - Michael Roach
5 - Dennis Collins
4 - Barry Rowlings
4 - Dale Weightman
2 - Robert Wiley
2 - Bruce Monteath
1 - Stephen Mount

Top 6 votes were ruckman, key forwards, forward pockets, key backs and backman. Not 1 on baller.

Wingman Bryan Wood played 23 games in 1980, had the 5th most amount of touches for the Tigers and didn't poll a Brownlow vote.

Raines did poll well in 1978 (equal 7th) and in 1979 with approx the same amount of touches as he got in the 22 home and away games for 1980.

Perhaps a maximum of 10 votes for Raines would of been forthcoming in 1980. Perhaps he back chatted a few umps, was a bit dirty on the field in 1980?

Ump Peter Cameron didn't like him and possibly told other umps to not award him votes.
There have always been players the umpires either dislike or favour when it comes to Brownlow votes. In 1977 Lethal stated that he didn’t particularly care about the Brownlow. The umpires cracked the sh*ts with him in 1978 and he only polled 3 votes. That year he kicked 71 goals, 26 disposals per game and equal B & F with Knights.
 

BigRex

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The 1995 pre-count Brownlow Medal favourites

3-1 - Wayne Carey
4-1 - Wayne Campbell
10-1 - Peter Matera
12-1 - James Hird
12-1 - Craig Bradley
15-1 - Garry Hocking
17-1 - Darren Jarman
21-1 - Michael Long
23-1 - Wayne Schwass
25-1 - Paul Kelly

Ratten didn't poll a single vote in 1995 but wasn't in the top 10 fancies. Ratten only polled 1 Brownlow vote in his first 6 seasons (97 games) at Carlton.


1995 Carlton Best and Fairest Votes

1 - Brett Ratten - 174 Votes
2 - Craig Bradley - 128 Votes
3 - Stephen Silvagni - 118 Votes
4 - Earl Spalding - 117 Votes
5 - Fraser Brown - 105 Votes
6 - Anthony Koutoufides - 101 Votes
6 - Justin Madden - 101 Votes
8 - Matt Clape - 84 Votes
9 - Stephen Kernahan - 74 Votes
10 - Ang Christou - 73 Votes
10 - Andrew McKay - 73 Votes

Brownlow Medal long-shots:

61-1 - Tony Liberatore (1990)
41-1 - Matt Priddis (2014)
41-1 - Brad Hardie (1985)
33-1 - Robert Dipierdomenico (1986)
33-1 - Brian Wilson (1982)
33-1 - Keith Greig (1973)
26-1 - Paul Kelly (1995)
21-1 - Graham Teasdale (1977)
17-1 - Gavin Wanganeen (1993)
15-1 - Kelvin Templeton (1980)
15-1 - Chris Judd (2010)
15-1 - Jason Akermanis (2001)
13-1 - Shane Woewodin (2000)
13-1 - Adam Cooney (2008)
11-1 - Jimmy Bartel (2007)
10-1 - Simon Black (2002
 
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Craze

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Good thread.

The fact that Leigh Matthews, Wayne Carey and Ablett Snr never got close to winning one, tells you that the Brownlow is all very nice, but has never served its purpose.

Matthews' best finish was 3rd in 1973.
Carey managed 5th in 1993.
Ablett was the 'worst' poller of votes amongst this grouping, with an equal 4th in 1985 his best.
 

SSrixon

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Good thread.

The fact that Leigh Matthews, Wayne Carey and Ablett Snr never got close to winning one, tells you that the Brownlow is all very nice, but has never served its purpose.

Matthews' best finish was 3rd in 1973.
Carey managed 5th in 1993.
Ablett was the 'worst' poller of votes amongst this grouping, with an equal 4th in 1985 his best.
If you look at AFL tables some of the games Ablett and Carey didn't poll in make for interesting reading. For example Ablett kicked 10.6 against the crows in 1993 (in a losing side as well!) and didn't poll a vote.
 

Wallaby

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Doin't get me wrong - I like the Brownlow. It's unique - it's probably the only sports award that is voted on by neutral, but still knowledgeable observers - by definition, the umpires are neutral (I know:rolleyes: - cue all the jokes).
It's also voted on by people who have the closest view of the game - whether that is a good view for determining the 'best player' is another argument.
It is also voted on immediately after the games - so no dispute about 'most valuable, because this game was critical to the final ladder positions'. Guess what - all games are critical top the final ladder positions. (In case you can't tell, I hate end-of-season MVP voting).

I also like the 'Fairness' aspect. Ok - 3,2,1 might not be the best way to apportion votes, but - again - that's another argument.

When it comes down to it - it's someone's opinion. No better than yours, or mine, or the cat's.
 

FRUMPY

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B&F's reward consistency as someone from your team is always going to get votes and more than 3 players get votes each game.

Brownlow rewards the best 3 players on the ground, from either team. You can poll best on in 10 games and be worst on ground in the other 12 and win the brownlow. You most likely wouldnt win the B&F if someone else was polling votes in most games.
 

MarcusP2

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That gulf between Bartel and Ablett in 2007 really shows how much of a shock the Bartel win was. Most dominant midfielder in a dominant side losing to someone from their own team must be rare.
 

Back One Out

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Dipper wins the 1986 Brownlow but finishes 8th in the 1986 Hawks B & F, the lowest in history of any Brownlow winner.

Ayres didn't poll a Brownlow vote in 1986

1986 Hawthorn B & F votes:

42 - Ayres
41 - Buckenara
35 - Platten
32 - Langford
26 - Loveridge
25 - Dunstall
25 - Wallace
23 - Tuck
23 - DiPierdomenico (1986 Brownlow Medalist)
22 - G.Dear
There are a number of contributing factors which could've led to this discrepancy in 1986

For starters, Dipper's 17 Brownlow votes was the lowest winning total ever. He polled Brownlow votes in just 7 games. So you probably could expect an anomaly from such a low total. Hawthorn's best and fairest scoring system was a hell of a lot different to the Brownlow which gives 3-2-1 votes to just three of 40 players. Our Brownlow votes mostly went to the midfielders: 17 Dipper, 14 Platten, 11 Loveridge, 7 Wallace, 6 Robertson, 6 Lester-Smith, 5 Tuck, 5 Dunstall. Our B+F ws

I keep telling people every year: stop blaming the umpires, it's the scoring system! Selecting the 3 best players out of 44 and giving them 3-2-1 votes in every match (whether it's 1 v 2 or 17 v 18) is a weird method of determining the comp's best player of the year... but funnily enough, I like it... :) I actually like the way it produce surprise winners like Dipper, Libba, Kelly, Woey, Akermanis and Priddis



Secondly, the Hawks had a dominant season in 1986, finishing on top of the ladder with 18 wins and then going on to win the flag. They had a very even contribution across the board from all their players. Their average winning margin that year was 53.6 points. In many of their victories, you could've given votes to 12 players and BOG to any one of 6 or 7 players. Probably no surprise the umps gave their votes to our midfielders in one sided thrashings where no forward kicked more than 3 or 4 goals.

Dipper was the eye-catching impact player on the wing. Many games where he got 25-30 possessions, bursting through tackles, taking a bounce and kicking goals.


The club adopted a new scoring system for their best and fairest award in 1986 - the match committee allocated 6 votes between the defenders, 6 votes between the midfielders and 6 votes between the forwards. Ayres and Buckenara had huge seasons in defence and attack. Well deserving of 1st and 2nd in the B+F. Langford and Dunstall also enjoyed breakout seasons and scored many B+F votes. The midfielders were a very even bunch in '86 and dominated all year. B+F votes were split pretty evenly between Platten, Loveridge, Wallace, Dipper, Tuck and Dear, all of whom had great seasons.

Greg Dear was the All Australian ruckman in '86 (VFL team of the year) and yet he finished 10th in the best and fairest voting
That, along with Dipper's surprise Brownlow, kind of illustrates how even the team was.



Lastly, Dipper had a very quiet '86 finals series: just 15, 24 and 16 disposals (after averaging 25-30 over the previous 4 months)
This would've cost him a few places in the club best and fairest. He would've been 5th (just behind Langford) after Round 22.
 
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kickazz

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Good thread.

The fact that Leigh Matthews, Wayne Carey and Ablett Snr never got close to winning one, tells you that the Brownlow is all very nice, but has never served its purpose.

Matthews' best finish was 3rd in 1973.
Carey managed 5th in 1993.
Ablett was the 'worst' poller of votes amongst this grouping, with an equal 4th in 1985 his best.
Remember that the Brownlow is for fairest and best, with the word fairest coming first.

Those three weren't necessarily the fairest players going around
 

Back One Out

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Brownlow Medal long-shots:

61-1 - Tony Liberatore (1990)
41-1 - Matt Priddis (2014)
41-1 - Brad Hardie (1985)
33-1 - Robert Dipierdomenico (1986)
33-1 - Brian Wilson (1982)
33-1 - Keith Greig (1973)
26-1 - Paul Kelly (1995)
21-1 - Graham Teasdale (1977)
17-1 - Gavin Wanganeen (1993)
15-1 - Kelvin Templeton (1980)
15-1 - Chris Judd (2010)
15-1 - Jason Akermanis (2001)
13-1 - Adam Cooney (2008)
11-1 - Jimmy Bartel (2007)
10-1 - Simon Black (2002
What odds was Woewodin in 2000 ?
 

Craze

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Remember that the Brownlow is for fairest and best, with the word fairest coming first.

Those three weren't necessarily the fairest players going around
I agree, but Dipper, Greg Williams, Tony Lockett and Tony Liberatore won Brownlows in the same era. Hardly cleanskins.
 

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