Won A Brownlow Medal but not club B & F in the same year

[wagstaff]

If you look at AFL tables some of the games Ablett and Carey didn't poll in make for interesting reading. For example Ablett kicked 10.6 against the crows in 1993 (in a losing side as well!) and didn't poll a vote.

There lots of those for full forwards back in the day.

One of Tony Lockett's most famous performances was when he single-handedly helped the Saints beat Carlton by kicking 10.7 (out of 13 goals) and only got 2 Brownlow votes.

The crazy thing was the person who got 3 votes was Brett Bowey who had 10 disposals for the day and kicked 1 goal!

 

[schmuttt]

I've never felt comfortable with the prestige attached to the Brownlow. It has its place, it's an umpires' award. That's fine. But why it carries the prestige of being the single most important individual award in football is a mystery to me.

If I were an AFL footballer, the greatest individual honour they could bestow upon me would be Best & Fairest for my club in a premiership season. I'd treasure that far more than a Brownlow.

Agree. Hell, even the media awards are a better representation of the best player.

 

[Power Raid]

it just highlights, it's a midfielders award judged by umpires

it is a farce that entire team has to sit through hours of nonsense, that is totally irrelevant to most of the league.

it's probably all to hard to change now

 

[Altum Volantes]

What odds was Woewodin in 2000 ?

He was around $15 I’m pretty sure, so not a rank outsider but not expected to win.

Melbourne also had a good season in 2000, so Woewodin was on the radar.

Biggest shock for me is still Matt Priddis, $40+ and playing for a team that finished a game out of the 8 in 9th. Not as long odds as Libba but that came out of nowhere.

Paul Kelly too was a big surprise - retrospectively it doesn’t seem out of the ordinary but he wasn’t expected to win that one.

 

[deanc]

Which pretty much explains why I hold little stock in Brownlows. Ayres was magnificent in 1986 and topped his season off with a B.O.G. performance in the Grand Final.

Agree, the Brownlow medal is a little quirky but for context, specifically in the days of just one field umpire, the umpires often awarded votes to players they thought had the biggest 'influence in the match outcome' and, yes, they had their favourites or at least certain players they expected would perform well. Some former umpires have also admitted 'being regularly abused' by certain players often influenced their voting.
Related folklore stories abound such as; Ian Stewart receiving 2 votes in a match he spent the 2nd half watching with a corked thigh on the bench - or Graham Teasdale getting 3 votes despite the Swans losing that match by 45 points - or Greg Williams, once awarded 2 votes in a match where he was reported twice....

While some B&F results vs Brownlow outcomes remain a mystery also note that similar to today 'the media' have always had their favourites and would look to promote/sensationalize any controversy if their specific favourite didn't win.
When Keith Grieg won back-to-back medals in 1974, beating red hot favourite Kevin Bartlett (who had won nearly all of the related awards that year) there was nearly a full on brawl at the Southern Cross hotel that night between Roos and Tigers officials..! KB actually finished 3rd in the count that night.

Dipper recalls the year he shared the medal with Diesel Williams, he was shocked to even receive an invitation to the function and apparently called a few teammates shortly after asking them sarcastically what they were doing next Monday night..? Thinking he'd only been invited as a reward for passing 150 games that year he turns up to the event half cut and recalls he was annoyed when a club official kept swapping his beer for water during the night...

In a similar story, Brad Hardie initially declined the invitation as he was already committed to another engagement on the same night. It was only after the V/AFL appealed to the Dogs insisting that he be there that Hardie attended.
Related, Hardie's 'shock Brownlow medal win' in his first V/AFL season was also, most say, the trigger for his infamous fall out with coach Mick Malthouse which, despite him winning the clubs B&F the following season, saw him leave the club (to the Brisbane Bears) vowing to 'never play in team again under Malthouse'...!

Most fortunate recipients - of arguably many.
My late father couldn't believe when Barry Round won in 1981. He simply laughed and to quote; 'How can a bloke who rarely kicks the ball because he's a shocking kick of the footy, win a bloody Brownlow medal...?!!?'
My pick is Shane Woewodin in 2000. He has one solitary year of great footy in a good team (Dees lost to Bombers in a GF), he wins the Dees B&F and the Brownlow medal - but really what else, actually it's hard to believe he got to play 200 games...?

 

[PetterdHoisted]

Agree, the Brownlow medal is a little quirky but for context, specifically in the days of just one field umpire, the umpires often awarded votes to players they thought had the biggest 'influence in the match outcome' and, yes, they had their favourites or at least certain players they expected would perform well. Some former umpires have also admitted 'being regularly abused' by certain players often influenced their voting.
Related folklore stories abound such as; Ian Stewart receiving 2 votes in a match he spent the 2nd half watching with a corked thigh on the bench - or Graham Teasdale getting 3 votes despite the Swans losing that match by 45 points - or Greg Williams, once awarded 2 votes in a match where he was reported twice....

While some B&F results vs Brownlow outcomes remain a mystery also note that similar to today 'the media' have always had their favourites and would look to promote/sensationalize any controversy if their specific favourite didn't win.
When Keith Grieg won back-to-back medals in 1974, beating red hot favourite Kevin Bartlett (who had won nearly all of the related awards that year) there was nearly a full on brawl at the Southern Cross hotel that night between Roos and Tigers officials..! KB actually finished 3rd in the count that night.

Dipper recalls the year he shared the medal with Diesel Williams, he was shocked to even receive an invitation to the function and apparently called a few teammates shortly after asking them sarcastically what they were doing next Monday night..? Thinking he'd only been invited as a reward for passing 150 games that year he turns up to the event half cut and recalls he was annoyed when a club official kept swapping his beer for water during the night...

In a similar story, Brad Hardie initially declined the invitation as he was already committed to another engagement on the same night. It was only after the V/AFL appealed to the Dogs insisting that he be there that Hardie attended.
Related, Hardie's 'shock Brownlow medal win' in his first V/AFL season was also, most say, the trigger for his infamous fall out with coach Mick Malthouse which, despite him winning the clubs B&F the following season, saw him leave the club (to the Brisbane Bears) vowing to 'never play in team again under Malthouse'...!'

Most fortunate recipients - of arguably many.
My late father couldn't believe when Barry Round won in 1981. He simply laughed and to quote; 'How can a bloke who rarely kicks the ball because he's a shocking kick of the footy, win a bloody Brownlow medal...?!!?'
My pick is Shane Woewodin in 2000. He has one solitary year of great footy in a good team (Dees lost to Bombers in a GF), he wins the Dees B&F and the Brownlow medal - but really what else, actually it's hard to believe he got to play 200 games...?

maybe we are being unfair, but I agree, the Woewodin win is an outlier, good-ordinary player at best.

 

[BigRex]

What odds was Woewodin in 2000 ?

13-1 - Shane Woewodin (2000)

Sorry, I didn't add it before but I've since edited that post.

What odds was Woewodin in 2000 ?

 

[HairyO]

I've never felt comfortable with the prestige attached to the Brownlow. It has its place, it's an umpires' award. That's fine. But why it carries the prestige of being the single most important individual award in football is a mystery to me.

If I were an AFL footballer, the greatest individual honour they could bestow upon me would be Best & Fairest for my club in a premiership season. I'd treasure that far more than a Brownlow.

Especially if you were a defender or a forward or a ruckman. Because at least in the club B&F you get the votes you deserve.

 

[Pedantic]

	Won A Brownlow Medal but not club B & F in the same year
	Brownlow Winner	Club winner	2nd	3rd	4th	5th	6th	7th	8th	9th	10th
1925​	Watson	Gambetta	Watson
1930​	Hopkins	McAlphine	Hopkins
1946​	Cordner	Mueller	Cordner
1950​	Ruthven	Stephen	Ruthven
1956​	Box	Ross	Box	J.Collins
1965​	Stewart	Baldock	Stewart
1973​	Greig	Davis	Rantall	Feltham	Goodingham	Greig
1974​	Greig	Rantall 197	Greig 177	Schimma 176	Davis 159	Montgomery 154
1981​	Quinlan	Alexander 140	Quinlan 131	G.Wilson 90
1982​	B.Wilson	Icke 388	Flower 324	B.Wilson 271
1984​	Moore	Gerard Healy 362	Moore 306	Jarrott 292
1985​	Hardie	Hawkins 233	Wallis 207	Royal 199	Hardie 168	Beasley
1986​	Dipper	Ayres 42	Buckenara 41	Platten 35	Langford 32	Loveridge 26	Dunstall 25	Wallace 25	Tuck 23	Dipper 23	Dear 22
1986​	Williams	Gerard Healy	Williams
1990​	Libba	Foster 132	McGuinness 127	Wallace 126	Atkins 119	Liberatore 115	Eppelstun 115
1993​	Wanganeen	O'Donnell	Harvey	Wanganeen
1995​	Kelly	Lockett	Kelly
2001​	Akermanis	Black 65	Voss 65	Lappin 61	Akermanis 57	Ashcroft 55
2007​	Bartel	Ablett 691	Bartel 513	Ling 502
2008​	Cooney	Cross 191	Cooney 167	Boyd 163
2011​	Swan	Pendlebury 65	Swan 54	T.Cloke 53
2014​	Priddis	MacKenzie 201	Priddis 190	Shuey 148
2015​	Fyfe	Sandilands 282	Mundy 277	S.Hill 261	Fyfe 260	Walters 244
2005​	Brownlow	Cousins 20	Kerr 19
2005​	WCE B & F	Cousins 1st	Kerr 8th

In 1946 Melbourne played three finals and Mueller was probably best on in two second best on in the other. Meanwhile Don Cordner was not in the best in any of the three. So Cordner could conceivably have been ahead of Mueller in the B&F after the H&A season. Cordner was named "Most Brilliant" by the club that season for whatever that's worth: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/204953809

 

[Partridge]

That gulf between Bartel and Ablett in 2007 really shows how much of a shock the Bartel win was. Most dominant midfielder in a dominant side losing to someone from their own team must be rare.

For whatever reason the umpires liked Bartel's influence more, and gave him a lot of 3s. Ablett on the other hand got a lot of 1s. There was never any doubt who was the better player or had the better year - Ablett won both the Players' and Coaches' MVP, and outperformed Bartel in the finals as well. Just the way the umpires saw it that year.

 

[Partridge]

I've never felt comfortable with the prestige attached to the Brownlow. It has its place, it's an umpires' award. That's fine. But why it carries the prestige of being the single most important individual award in football is a mystery to me.

If I were an AFL footballer, the greatest individual honour they could bestow upon me would be Best & Fairest for my club in a premiership season. I'd treasure that far more than a Brownlow.

Completely agree. I reckon either of the MVP awards would hold much greater weight for a player too.

I'll never forget when the FoxFooty guys were discussing the Brownlow results in 2009. Brad Scott was on the panel, and when it was mentioned Corey Enright polled 0 votes he said "that tells me all I need to know about that award". Enright ended up tieing for our Best and Fairest with Ablett too.

It's gotten worse as well. The infatuation the commentators have with superstar midfielders (seriously, just watch literally any game now) has crept into how the umpires vote. For both the Brownlow and Norm Smith. Supporters may bitch about Martin getting the Norm Smith, but if we win a Grand Final and Dangerfield was upright and breathing he'd be a near certainty. Same with Fyfe. Definitely the same with Cripps, probably Bontompelli and so on. I wish they'd understand other positions matter too.

 

[Power Raid]

That gulf between Bartel and Ablett in 2007 really shows how much of a shock the Bartel win was. Most dominant midfielder in a dominant side losing to someone from their own team must be rare.

I love Bartel but Ablett was robbed

was there any politics behind this?

 

[Partridge]

I love Bartel but Ablett was robbed

was there any politics behind this?

Nah, they just gave him 3 votes where Ablett picked up a lot of 1s. He had his best year for sure, but Ablett was still better.

 

[Belnakor]

Good thread.

The fact that Leigh Matthews, Wayne Carey and Ablett Snr never got close to winning one, tells you that the Brownlow is all very nice, but has never served its purpose.

Matthews' best finish was 3rd in 1973.
Carey managed 5th in 1993.
Ablett was the 'worst' poller of votes amongst this grouping, with an equal 4th in 1985 his best.

it didn't help Carey was always abusing the umpires and had a bad relationship with them.

 

[Belnakor]

4th - Fyfe 2015

Freo's B&F system is garbage as it basically gives players a score for each game. If you miss a couple of games its almost impossible to win. Pavlich won so many times because he was so durable, played well in most games but most importantly played 20+ games pretty much every season.

 

[Belnakor]

it just highlights, it's a midfielders award judged by umpires

it is a farce that entire team has to sit through hours of nonsense, that is totally irrelevant to most of the league.

it's probably all to hard to change now

You say that but in the past 20 years there has probably only been 2-3 times when the Brownlow went to the "wrong" person.

People who want it to be awarded based on the media, well look at the Norm Smith - generally awarded to the player with the best "story" for people to talk about. If you want it to be based on coaches, then look at the coaches award which has had coaches picking their favourites throughout the award.

 

[Belnakor]

Biggest shock for me is still Matt Priddis, $40+ and playing for a team that finished a game out of the 8 in 9th. Not as long odds as Libba but that came out of nowhere.

tbh the last game votes he got were pretty suspicious in getting him past the ineligible fyfe

 

[Duskfire]

it just highlights, it's a midfielders award judged by umpires

it is a farce that entire team has to sit through hours of nonsense, that is totally irrelevant to most of the league.

it's probably all to hard to change now

While you are right to some degree, it is worth noting that in the majority of the other awards, midfielders typically also win. Players association, Sydney Herald Sun, Coaches awards, etc etc 90% of the time will also give it to a midfielder (the only exceptions I can think of are the ruck.) The midfield typically has the greater influence on the ground, so it makes sense to some degree. So while I agree that the Brownlow is maybe a bit overrated, most awards give it to midfielders.

The B & F just takes more into account, as in various roles players play and things of that nature, that aren't always applicable. For instance, Blicavs won it for Geelong in 2018. But was he better then Dangerfield that year? Most people would suggest not. But for Geelong he was extremely important. So they can't be compared, really.

 

[Wallaby]

Freo's B&F system is garbage as it basically gives players a score for each game. If you miss a couple of games its almost impossible to win. Pavlich won so many times because he was so durable, played well in most games but most importantly played 20+ games pretty much every season.

I don't actually mind that system - you could argue that a player that plays two good-to-ok games is more valuable than someone who plays one excellent game and then misses a game through injury.

Where the problem with the 'score every player' system is that they tend to give votes out of 10, and anything less then 5 is seen as disastrous. An 'average' game seems to land in the 6-8 range, when it should be 4-6.

But the real killer is stats. Commentators, fans (and probably umps) read the stats and get excited about big numbers. There are plenty of stats available in a game - each team gets about 300 possesions (these days - in full length games it's 350-400), each team gains about - I don't know actually - about 4000 metres? Players are going to get those - and some days it happens to fall into one player's hands more than his teammates and everyone gets excited.

The game is about scoring - specifically scoring goals. I look for the players that can create the play that leads to scoring - the key kicks, or tackles, or marks that break the opposition defence (and vice-versa, the great defensive plays as well). Yes, you need competent kicks off the half-back line, but that's system as much as great pllay that creates the goal-scoring chain.
That's why I always rate Key Forwards as the most important players - also the half-forward creators. And to a lesser extent, the defenders that stop them. But a key forward can have 5 crucial touches (and maybe not even personally kick a goal from any of them), and be just as good as the mid who gets 25 possessions, doesn't miss a target, but doesn't actually make anything happen (apart from moving the ball in the general direction of the goal. Metres Gained!!!).

 

[Adelaide Hawk]

Michael Tuck was runner-up in Hawthorn's B&F on 7 occasions, and in three of those seasons received no votes in the Brownlow, and only 4 votes on a fourth occasion.

None of that worries me, I respect the Brownlow for what it is, an umpires' award. It's their award, they can vote for whoever they want. I just question the importance we attach to it.

 

[Coaster2012]

The question I've always had is, do the umpires go look at the stats of the game after they have umpired to make a decision? Or is that not allowed?

 

[Dirty Bird]

I dont take much out of B&Fs

Each coach gives out points based on contribution to the game. This does give a true reflection on a game by game basis.

However, it puts too much emphasis on being on the park.
While the Brownlow medal favours being the best on the field.

Ultimately, it makes it feel like the B&F becomes a participation trophy.

Heres a few examples

2019 GWS
Coniglio 17 votes from 15 games. Does not make top 10

2018 Melbourne
Brayshaw 21 votes from 19 games. Finishes 6th. 4 of the 5 ahead of him played all 22 games

2017 Sydney
Josh Kennedy 23 votes from 19 games. Finishes 4th. 2 of the 3 played all 22 games, the other played 21

2016 BUlldogs
Jason Johannisen finishes 3rd on Brownlow voting from 13 games (+ a few finals). Barely scrapes into the top 10

I would actually be willing to bet that Matt Crouch will finish top 3 in the B+F this year for Adelaide despite him being dropped for form for 1 game, and having fans calling for his head for half the season.

 

[Dirty Bird]

The question I've always had is, do the umpires go look at the stats of the game after they have umpired to make a decision? Or is that not allowed?

Not allowed, they have to do the paperwork in the changeroom after the match, but the AFL force all umpires to leave their phones at the door. Basically, besides their headsets used to communicate with each other and the coach in the box, their watches (field and boundary will all have gps tracking on their watches) and maybe afl endorsed gps trackers similar to the players (though, I dont think they do) they have no technology out there.

Theyll arrive at the ground, hand over their phone, and get it back when leaving.

This is to stop them having any outside influence when doing votes.

 

[Goggin Our Best]

I think it is overrated

Carey ( who i think has been the best player in the last 40-50 years ) someone posted his best finish is only 5th - staggering

Biggest joke has to be 1955 - Fred Goldsmith a full back for Sth Melb won it

Ive heard Hugh Mitchell of Essendon tell this story - round 8 1955 - Ess v Sth Melb at Windy Hill - Mitchell played full forward opposed to Goldsmith at FB

Ess won the game 13 goals to 7 goals . Mitchell playing FF - kicked 9 of the Dons 13 goals - yet Freddie Goldsmith got the 3 Brownlow votes - hah

 

[Mesc]

1985's winner has always irked me. Horrible bloke..