Media Wonders robbed in match against Roys FFC

[Ned_Flanders]

It won't bring it back though

Actually there is reversal surgery now, but I'd rather just punch the penis chopping *er

 

[Mobbs]

If it helps ease the Wonders' pain at all, don't forget that minor premiers hardly ever win the flag. Ljp86 can probably throw up some stats to back this up. In fact, if I were a Dragon, I'd be hoping like hell that the Wonders get these 4 points!

 

[haydo]

As the person who started this thread here is my updated 2 cents.

The Wonders and myself will not be appealing the decision to re-sim the game. Yes we believe the result is wrong and the Wonders should have won that game yesterday however we deem the result to not be overly important in regards to finals position. We still finish 2nd on the ladder and have a home final and that's what we've wanted to achieve all season.

I want to apologize to Cloud_ for this unwanted attention to end the season. I never wanted to call him out and put the pressure on him, I did so however not knowing what the rules were behind this type of scenario. A goal had been kicked on the siren but the scoreline never updated to the right score therefor I was ALWAYS going to ask the question. To say this happens a lot in the sim just shows you that something (within the sim) needs to be change. I can understand that we can necessarily make rules mid-way through the season and having a good chat with the committee now knowing that a rule would be hard to adjudicate.

My point in this whole argument was what if this happened in a Grand Final? I'd feel completely hard done by if there was a goal kicked on the siren to win the game, no result counted on the scoreline and the admin says "tough t***ies" this happens all the time and brushes it off to the side.

Best thing for the league to do is to talk to Mobbs and see if there is a way to re-code the sim to erase or fix the errors that it makes. 10 years without an update to a sim is pretty poor. Imagine the amount of changes we could make with commentary and bugs if we have the ability to fix the sim.

The Wonders accept the loss yesterday against the Roys by 2 points. We're not happy about it however we'll move on and make it apart of our redemption against them this week.

It was a great opportunity to get some banter flowing however I never expected comments like those that we have seen from a few certain posters questioning Cloud_ input as admin. He is doing a great job, we should be thankful for the man doing a thankless job at the end of the day.

 

[TheCoach16]

Yes I acknowledge Mobbs created the game and knows more about the Qooty sim than me. However, if you're argument is because the creator has a differing opinion to me hence I am not allowed to make my own it's not a particularly strong argument. Everyone has independent thought processes. I've yet to find any official decision made in the past regarding editing the score and the stats manually in similar cases, and that's what I prefer to make decisions along with discussion within the committee. In fact there's one similar case in Season 17 Round 16 where a Sydney Bloods goal was denied



I couldn't quite find the official treatment of this but the score wasn't changed in Ljp86's ladder thread nor in Mobbs' results hub thread in the archives. A brief mention of the incident was made here: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/index-to-controversial-matches.727660/page-3 and I believe they moved on from the matter soon. Now Mobbs' may have a different position now and that's fine, but I have reasons to make this call.

First of all, this is a rather common occurrence not a rarity nor abnormality with the sim program. There are other games which have denied goals in similar circumstances, Round 3 Roys vs Demons this season for instance Allikat was denied a goal that the commentary stated she kicked. To edit the score now and not then would be exceptionalism. To edit both would mean we have to put finals on hold and review every game of the season to check if any goals kicked on the final siren had been denied, and edit stats, scores accordingly which could have ramifications on the ladder, awards, stats etc. and cause inconvenience for many parties. I guarantee the majority of the league would not be too pleased about it.

But notwithstanding the impracticality of shifting stances on the fly. I've found no instance before of manually changing scores and stats, and I see no benefit in starting different precedent. The sim program operated completely normally, it wasn't 'broken' or 'corrupted' nor was it a 'glitch'. It's a quirk of the sim. Everyone knows that the sim is a simple text based simulator that's been a decade since it's last update, it has limitations and can't simulate games that are exactly consistent with real footy games. It is widely accepted that sometimes parts of the sim make no sense, for instance;

- there are instances where a player takes possession of the ball (not takes a shot, takes possession) *siren sounds* next quarter begins with the same player in possession of the ball, illegally kicking it after the siren and yet it is counted to the score. We don't say that this would make no sense in real footy and remove that play then change all the subsequent scores. We accept that's a quirk of the sim and a part of the game.

In the end every team is subject to these equally and no one is unfairly disadvantaged.

I'd agree that we could improve the game in this area but making new rules to compensate for program limitations is the wrong approach. The sim throws up unusual events every season and we'd end up with a lot of new rules if we had to make one every time a quirk looks to have affected the result.

The answer is to improve the program itself and if I can find a person with appropriate expertise I'll look to work with Mobbs to hopefully make some inroads on this. Until then unless someone can offer an extraordinarily strong argument to myself and the committee I will not be wavering.

You and most others are talking about “changing the score”. I don’t see it like that. If I may make the following point...

The goal in question was scored, called in the commentary, acknowledged, and confirmed, within the official allotted time for this game. The goal was scored, called, acknowledged, and confirmed, SOMEWHERE between the first bounce and the final siren. Not before. Not after. SOMEWHERE within the official duration of this game.
As were the other 33 goals scored. As was EVERY goal kicked by every team, in every game, across the round.
They were all scored, called in the commentary, acknowledged, and confirmed DURING the game...

So my question is, what property do we assign to this particular goal that makes it any less relevant than ALL the others? What attribute attaches itself to this particular goal, that differentiates it from ALL the other goals?

Because for the life of me, I can’t work that out.


You don’t need to “change the score”. You need to ensure the score is accurate in accordance with the game itself. And at the moment, the score is one goal short.

 

[Kennedy Parker]

As the person who started this thread here is my updated 2 cents.

The Wonders and myself will not be appealing the decision to re-sim the game. Yes we believe the result is wrong and the Wonders should have won that game yesterday however we deem the result to not be overly important in regards to finals position. We still finish 2nd on the ladder and have a home final and that's what we've wanted to achieve all season.

I want to apologize to Cloud_ for this unwanted attention to end the season. I never wanted to call him out and put the pressure on him, I did so however not knowing what the rules were behind this type of scenario. A goal had been kicked on the siren but the scoreline never updated to the right score therefor I was ALWAYS going to ask the question. To say this happens a lot in the sim just shows you that something (within the sim) needs to be change. I can understand that we can necessarily make rules mid-way through the season and having a good chat with the committee now knowing that a rule would be hard to adjudicate.

My point in this whole argument was what if this happened in a Grand Final? I'd feel completely hard done by if there was a goal kicked on the siren to win the game, no result counted on the scoreline and the admin says "tough t***ies" this happens all the time and brushes it off to the side.

Best thing for the league to do is to talk to Mobbs and see if there is a way to re-code the sim to erase or fix the errors that it makes. 10 years without an update to a sim is pretty poor. Imagine the amount of changes we could make with commentary and bugs if we have the ability to fix the sim.

The Wonders accept the loss yesterday against the Roys by 2 points. We're not happy about it however we'll move on and make it apart of our redemption against them this week.

It was a great opportunity to get some banter flowing however I never expected comments like those that we have seen from a few certain posters questioning Cloud_ input as admin. He is doing a great job, we should be thankful for the man doing a thankless job at the end of the day.

There’s absolutely no need to apologise for raising a point of discussion Haydo.

Admittedly my reaction if it occurred in a grand final probably wouldn’t be to say ‘tough t***ies’, that remark was made when I thought you were just stirring the pot in the media. But the conclusion would’ve been the same perhaps with committeee discussion.

I think there are certain quirks in the sim program that do appear illogical and for as long as I can remember we’ve accepted the sim’s flaws and the output for what it is.

I believe that going down the path of adding in new rules for every case where the result may be affected by one of these quirks is the wrong approach. Because if we make the rule for one quirk we’ll need to make rules for all the quirks that we discover.

The correct way to go about fixing this and prevent future scenarios is to do an update of the program. My understanding is that Mobbs currently does not have the resources available nor the coding expertise to implement such a change himself but we’ll be on the lookout for someone who can and hopefully work towards a new sim.

 

[Kennedy Parker]

You and most others are talking about “changing the score”. I don’t see it like that. If I may make the following point...

The goal in question was scored, called in the commentary, acknowledged, and confirmed, within the official allotted time for this game. The goal was scored, called, acknowledged, and confirmed, SOMEWHERE between the first bounce and the final siren. Not before. Not after. SOMEWHERE within the official duration of this game.
As were the other 33 goals scored. As was EVERY goal kicked by every team, in every game, across the round.
They were all scored, called in the commentary, acknowledged, and confirmed DURING the game...

So my question is, what property do we assign to this particular goal that makes it any less relevant than ALL the others? What attribute attaches itself to this particular goal, that differentiates it from ALL the other goals?

Because for the life of me, I can’t work that out.


You don’t need to “change the score”. You need to ensure the score is accurate in accordance with the game itself. And at the moment, the score is one goal short.

Because the score is not official when the commentary says it to be, it’s official when the sim program registers it. The entire competition is based off what the program gives us. The output produced by the sim carries with it a certain sanctity. Meaning the simmer’s sole role is to input the teams, run the application and make sure it runs according to normal circumstances. We don’t edit the score line based on what we believe makes sense or not in the real world. This has been upheld under the Hate administration, under The Filth wizard’s administration, under the okeydoke7 administration, I’m not sure about boncer34 administration as I didnt play but I’d be surprised if any edits to scorelines were made.

 

[Blaze Storm]

You and most others are talking about “changing the score”. I don’t see it like that. If I may make the following point...

The goal in question was scored, called in the commentary, acknowledged, and confirmed, within the official allotted time for this game. The goal was scored, called, acknowledged, and confirmed, SOMEWHERE between the first bounce and the final siren. Not before. Not after. SOMEWHERE within the official duration of this game.
As were the other 33 goals scored. As was EVERY goal kicked by every team, in every game, across the round.
They were all scored, called in the commentary, acknowledged, and confirmed DURING the game...

So my question is, what property do we assign to this particular goal that makes it any less relevant than ALL the others? What attribute attaches itself to this particular goal, that differentiates it from ALL the other goals?

Because for the life of me, I can’t work that out.


You don’t need to “change the score”. You need to ensure the score is accurate in accordance with the game itself. And at the moment, the score is one goal short.

Your comment is like saying "the commentators said it was touched but the umpires didn't, so it should stand".

Doesn't really make sense. Even in situations where umpires make incorrect calls and goals are later shown to be behinds or kicked after the sirens, the AFL never goes back and changes the scores. It's the rub of the green.

 

[U2tigers]

I am not sure who kicked the goal, but just out of curiosity does his goal get counted amongst his stats. ie - kick and goal?

 

[Mobbs]

I am not sure who kicked the goal, but just out of curiosity does his goal get counted amongst his stats. ie - kick and goal?

It's hard to remember but I am guessing no. It really depends on the order in which the program's spaghetti was arranged.

 

[Mobbs]

I am not sure who kicked the goal, but just out of curiosity does his goal get counted amongst his stats. ie - kick and goal?

It's hard to remember but I am guessing no. It really depends on the order in which the program's spaghetti was arranged.

 

[haydo]

I am not sure who kicked the goal, but just out of curiosity does his goal get counted amongst his stats. ie - kick and goal?

It was OutofTownCrow and nope, I've already gone and checked. He's goal wasn't counted in his stats or the goal by goal comparison at the end of the game

 

[TheCoach16]

Your comment is like saying "the commentators said it was touched but the umpires didn't, so it should stand".

Doesn't really make sense. Even in situations where umpires make incorrect calls and goals are later shown to be behinds or kicked after the sirens, the AFL never goes back and changes the scores. It's the rub of the green.

That’s not what I’m saying AT ALL... I’m not quite sure how you got that from what I said...

What I said was. There’s a criteria for what constitutes a goal in a game of SFA. The goal in question was no different to any other scored during the round. It met all the criteria for being a goal.

So again, I ask. What attribute attaches itself to this goal that makes it different from all the others?

 

[baldandbroke]

It was OutofTownCrow and nope, I've already gone and checked. He's goal wasn't counted in his stats or the goal by goal comparison at the end of the game

I checked that too ... only two goals in the stats. Even though I kicked three

 

[Wojcinski]

4 : 24.38 {lBP} - Azarole does some crumbing and is away.
4 : 24.43 {lBP} - Azarole can't pull the wool over the umpire's eyes that was deliberate.
4 : 24.47 {rFP} - OutofTownCrow has it. What can he do with it?.
4 : 24.51 {rFP} - This should be a goal to OutofTownCrow.
4 : 24.55 {rFP} - I think he's snuck it in. Full points.

Not only does the commentary say he scored, but the fact that it was from a free kick, during play and the commentary noted the score before time expired I can't see how it can be argued any other way. This needs to be fixed before next season because if this happened in a match that meant more than whether a team finished 1st or 2nd on the ladder then people WILL crack it and it'll cause a divide in the league. It has to be fixed.

 

[U2tigers]

I checked that too ... only two goals in the stats. Even though I kicked three

Sad, but that sort of makes the decision that was made acceptable. I would hate for you to have a kick and goal in your stats forever, but it not count in the games result.

Time to move on, and figure out how we can turn the table on the campaigners who call themselves the Roys.

 

[Mobbs]

Time to move on, and figure out how we can turn the table on the campaigners who call themselves the Roys.

Yeah! Let's get those bastards!

 

[I Dont Care]

Sad, but that sort of makes the decision that was made acceptable. I would hate for you to have a kick and goal in your stats forever, but it not count in the games result.

Time to move on, and figure out how we can turn the table on the campaigners who call themselves the Roys.

Maybe I'll just do you on a table...then we can really call you 'U2' coz I would have done you too

 

[TheCoach16]

4 : 24.38 {lBP} - Azarole does some crumbing and is away.
4 : 24.43 {lBP} - Azarole can't pull the wool over the umpire's eyes that was deliberate.
4 : 24.47 {rFP} - OutofTownCrow has it. What can he do with it?.
4 : 24.51 {rFP} - This should be a goal to OutofTownCrow.
4 : 24.55 {rFP} - I think he's snuck it in. Full points.

Not only does the commentary say he scored, but the fact that it was from a free kick, during play and the commentary noted the score before time expired I can't see how it can be argued any other way. This needs to be fixed before next season because if this happened in a match that meant more than whether a team finished 1st or 2nd on the ladder then people WILL crack it and it'll cause a divide in the league. It has to be fixed.

Worse still, if it happens to the Bombers, we will * s**t up!...

 

[Elton Johns Wig]

Worse still, if it happens to the Bombers, we will **** s**t up!...

No, you won't.

It's been a great discussion, but whether or not we like it or deem it fair, we know where all teams stand on this now. We know what the outcome is if it happens to ANY team, not just ours.
It sounds like long term it will be addressed. Short term, we just have to suck it up. And get back to calling each other campaigners, you campaigner.

 

[Elton Johns Wig]

And that's not saying that I don't agree with your POV Coach. It's just life n s**t, innit?

 

[Restricted Free Agent]

It's hard to remember but I am guessing no. It really depends on the order in which the program's spaghetti was arranged.

#codinglingo

 

[Restricted Free Agent]

Cloud_ sorry for being whining.
Or as Blaze Storm would put it "Winning"

 

[Agent93]

In fact there's one similar case in Season 17 Round 16 where a Sydney Bloods goal was denied

Happened last week where Biggie lost one.

 

[TheCoach16]

No, you won't.

It's been a great discussion, but whether or not we like it or deem it fair, we know where all teams stand on this now. We know what the outcome is if it happens to ANY team, not just ours.
It sounds like long term it will be addressed. Short term, we just have to suck it up. And get back to calling each other campaigners, you campaigner.

And that's not saying that I don't agree with your POV Coach. It's just life n s**t, innit?

Mate, you’ve seen the shitstorm we cause over the most minor frustrations...
Imagine, if you will, the Bombers losing a game, that we clearly knew we shouldn’t have...

Picture that, campaigner.

 

[I Dont Care]

Mate, you’ve seen the shitstorm we cause over the most minor frustrations...
Imagine, if you will, the Bombers losing a game, that we clearly knew we shouldn’t have...

Picture that, campaigner.

I can picture myself laughing. Would that help?