Woomera

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Jan 11, 2002
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I thought that Pauline Hanson had quit politics,but it seems that she is alive and well hiding behind a pair of specs,a false smile and a balding head......Mr.Howard I presume.
Who said racism is dead


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Catch you all later

Rocky
PIES for Premiers 2002



It's interesting that we spend so much trying to keep out a few thousand boat people that try and get to this country each year yet basically nothing is done to the illegal's that overstay their visa's. I heard the figure is around the 80,000 mark but then the majority of these are from the US or Britain so not considered a problem by our govt given their background.

Considering the US, Britain and a lot of Western European countries have more than between 100,000 and 500,000 illegal refugees arrive on their shores every year it makes ours a small drop in the ocean really.

Given our Naval boats cost about $100,000 per day to operate and the millions of dollars we are giving to other countries to process them off shore (as well as pay the wages to their staff). On top of that the huge costs to run the camps in our country for those that actually make it to Australia.

We must be spending well over $100,000 per refugee that attempts to get to our country with our current policies - surely we have more important things to spend this money on.
 
Originally posted by wagstaff
It should be noted the irony in the fact that the Herald Sun has been carrying stories about how awful these "illegal" refugees are for not waiting their turn when the owner of that paper managed to buy his American citizenship in 1985, and can buy his way into any country he liked.

Even more ironic is the fact that the father of the man seen as one of the icons of the Liberal party (Menzies) entered this country by jumping ship. I guess you only have to wait in line if you aren't waspish. From what I've been told Malcolm Frasers father also enered australia this way. Perhaps that explains his rather more tolerant attitude.
 
Originally posted by Briedis
A couple of questions though.

1) Why is the government taking so long in processing these people? We have had refugees here before and there has not been this kind of problem.

Because Howard wants word to get back that if you come to this country in a boat you'll get sent out to the desert and spend 2 years in detention. He thinks it'll deter people. He'd be better off proceesing them quickly, and if they don't meet the refugee criteria sending them home quickly.

2) How can refugees afford to pay over $10,000 to people smugglers?

Many of the refugees coming here are the middle class in their countries and they spend their life savings to get here. Being poor is not a pre-requisite for being a refugee. A refugee is someone who flees their country because they can no longer live there safely.

In my opinion, genuine refugees should be assisted by this country, but people who are not refugees and are just trying to emmigrate to Australia without going through the proper procedures by paying "people smugglers" large sums of money should not be allowed in.

Last year we took in two refugees from Pakistan. Two. The government also moved the regugee office from Pakistan to Thailand. How else do you expect someone from that country to get here now?
 

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wagstaff

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Originally posted by Bomber Spirit

No argument there. The problem is what happens while we're working out which ones are genuine and which are not. And unfortunately there's no viable alternative to detention.

Does anyone actually know what is (or used to be) defined as a refugee? It used to the Geneva Convention, but which seems to be under increasing attack. THe relevant information can be found at this site with the link at the bottom called 'The 1951 Geneva Refugee Convention' being the most valid one.

http://www.unhcr.ch/cgi-bin/texis/vtx/home
 

Bloodstained Angel

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a few people in this thread have said that 'there is no viable alternative to detention"

Ummmm - hello ?????

Out of over 200 individual sovereigin states on the face of Planet Earth, we are the only ones who lock up refugees

Thats right people - we are the only ones. Absolutely unique in our cold hearted, harsh and mean spirited approach to refugees.

North Korea, Zimbabwe, Russia and China all treat refugees with more humanity than we do.

We are the only ones that lock these people up.

Anmd its not even like we have a problem.

Last year less than 5000 people made it here by boat - LESS THAN 5000 - think about it folks - thats not even enough to fill one single seationg bay in the Great Southern Stand.

Its a pathetic, miniscule amount. Yet we can't even bring ourselves to treat these people with ordinary, decent humanity.

One would think we are being invaded, the way some people here have crapped on about these people.

Lets just repeat that figure - LESS THAN 5000 people made it here.

Other countries in the world have that many arrivals in a week, let alone a year - yet these countries don't throw them into hell-holes in the middle of the desert, other countries do not treat refugees like they are criminals (in fact common criminals are treated better in this country than refugees, who have committed no crime)

IF EVERY SINGLE OTHER COUNTRY ON PLANET EARTH CAN ACCEPT REFUGEES WITHOUT LOCKING THEM UP, WHY CAN"T WE ?

'no alternative to detention' ? - yeah right pull the other one - its got bells on.

cheers
 

evade28

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what about quarantine etc? how do we know these people aren't bringing things with them or possibly carrying diseases? i dont want them let out into society to maybe infect people here who dont have that disease. this country is very much free of disease, whereas countries they come from aren't, therefore theyre going to have to be locked up for a while anyway.
 

Fat Red

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Originally posted by evade28
what about quarantine etc? how do we know these people aren't bringing things with them or possibly carrying diseases? i dont want them let out into society to maybe infect people here who dont have that disease. this country is very much free of disease, whereas countries they come from aren't, therefore theyre going to have to be locked up for a while anyway.

That is the stupidest thing I have read on bigfooty.

The last country almost all of these people come from is Indonesia. If we did that, we'd have to lock up everyone who comes back from Bali.
 

evade28

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what im saying is these people dont go through a quarantine system like people at airports do. they just turn up.
oh yeah, and people from bali go through security, with sniffer dogs, xray machines etc. they also have passports, whereas the people coming from those derelictic boats have no ID whatsoever.
 

Fat Red

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Originally posted by evade28
what im saying is these people dont go through a quarantine system like people at airports do. they just turn up.
oh yeah, and people from bali go through security, with sniffer dogs, xray machines etc. they also have passports, whereas the people coming from those derelictic boats have no ID whatsoever.

that's true, but all that means is that when they give themselves up (which they virtually always do), they need to be searched. I have no problem with that, but it doesn't mean they have to be locked up.
 

Tim_in_Philly

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Originally posted by Bloodstained Angel
a few people in this thread have said that 'there is no viable alternative to detention"

Ummmm - hello ?????

Out of over 200 individual sovereigin states on the face of Planet Earth, we are the only ones who lock up refugees

Thats right people - we are the only ones. Absolutely unique in our cold hearted, harsh and mean spirited approach to refugees.

North Korea, Zimbabwe, Russia and China all treat refugees with more humanity than we do.

We are the only ones that lock these people up.

Anmd its not even like we have a problem.

Last year less than 5000 people made it here by boat - LESS THAN 5000 - think about it folks - thats not even enough to fill one single seationg bay in the Great Southern Stand.

Its a pathetic, miniscule amount. Yet we can't even bring ourselves to treat these people with ordinary, decent humanity.

One would think we are being invaded, the way some people here have crapped on about these people.

Lets just repeat that figure - LESS THAN 5000 people made it here.

Other countries in the world have that many arrivals in a week, let alone a year - yet these countries don't throw them into hell-holes in the middle of the desert, other countries do not treat refugees like they are criminals (in fact common criminals are treated better in this country than refugees, who have committed no crime)

IF EVERY SINGLE OTHER COUNTRY ON PLANET EARTH CAN ACCEPT REFUGEES WITHOUT LOCKING THEM UP, WHY CAN"T WE ?

'no alternative to detention' ? - yeah right pull the other one - its got bells on.

cheers

I appreciate your sentiments BSA but unfortunately it isn't true. Almost all countries treat "undocumented entrants" by either detention or immediate return to the country of departure. Some countries such as Canada and Norway have time limits on the length of detention with assessment resulting in people joining the normal refugee application queue or being sent home. In the case of the normal refugee queue for people arriving with documentation (ie passport, tourist visa - in other words people arriving at an airport), these people are allowed entry into Australia while their application is processed.

One of the most irritating things about this whole issue has been the media slanging match which has avoided any reference to factual information. Commentators from both sides of politics are simply point-scoring with no real interest in the actual issue.

A good web-site for info is www.refugees.org where it is possible to compare Australia's record - both good and bad - against other countries.

There is a good article about "Regional Co-operation" which tells what was wrong with the Tampa process but also what the Australian government does to help in Indonesia (eg their refugee processing is paid for by us).

Check out the web-site - it is a good source of FACTS.
 

Frodo

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Well here's another stupid one for you 1AD :rolleyes:

What do you call people who go on hunger strikes, sew up lips etc?

Radicals, extremists?

Maybe just the sort that will be suicide bombers of the future..........living here in australia and causing mayhem without a question being asked if half of the bigfooty posters had their way.
 

Frodo

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Originally posted by Fat Red


The last country almost all of these people come from is Indonesia. If we did that, we'd have to lock up everyone who comes back from Bali.

So they maybe are a threat to Indonesia also.

And as for Bali, it is a filthy disease ridden hole with thousands coming back every year and going straight to the doctor.

Concerns about health and bringing disease into Australia are scofed at dangerously.
 

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Bomber Spirit

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Most alternatives mentioned are perfectly workable if you're prepared to define a refugee simply as someone who claims to be a refugee. If you accept that definition, then there's no need to worry about processing, you can close detention centres and save a lot of money.
But not even the UNHCR accepts that definition. So therefore, whenever someone arrives in Australia and claims to be a refugee, their claims have to be processed and assessed.
Unfortunately, in the same way that even though accused criminals are innocent until proven guilty they are often remanded in custody until their cases are heard, unless bail is granted, the same has to happen with assylum seekers. Shinboners' idea of a bond/bail isn't a bad one in some cases, but may not always be appropriate.
But, that being the case, it's important for applications to be decided quickly. Justice delayed is justice denied.
 

Dippers Donuts

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Originally posted by evade28
what im saying is these people dont go through a quarantine system like people at airports do. they just turn up.
oh yeah, and people from bali go through security, with sniffer dogs, xray machines etc. they also have passports, whereas the people coming from those derelictic boats have no ID whatsoever.

and what do you think we do with them at the detention centres, play twister with them all day long?

They are given thorough medical examinations and treatment for diseases at these facilities (not that I am in any way endorsing these hell holes...)
 

Dippers Donuts

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Originally posted by Frodo
Well here's another stupid one for you 1AD :rolleyes:

What do you call people who go on hunger strikes, sew up lips etc?

Radicals, extremists?

Maybe just the sort that will be suicide bombers of the future..........living here in australia and causing mayhem without a question being asked if half of the bigfooty posters had their way.

I would call these poor souls desperate...driven to despair by the one of the most callous governments in the world.

More than likely (like the overwhelming majority of previous asylum seekers granted refugee status) they will be law abiding, constructive contributors to Australian society.
 

London Dave

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This is one of the best articles I have read on this particular issue. A few have you have probably read it, its from the age (and SMH too I'd say). Some may dismiss it as leftist drivel, or right wing crap, but its just your mindset at work. food for thought for all of us!

http://www.theage.com.au/news/state/2002/02/02/FFXFCKXU4XC.html

Stand by for some fancy moral footwork on detainees

By HUGH MACKAY
Saturday 2 February 2002

Mindset is everything. Once we've made up our minds about something, it's the devil's own job to get us to change - partly because a change feels like a backdown, but mainly because we become adept at interpreting everything we see and hear in ways that reinforce our existing point of view.

Do you believe the Woomera detainees are a mob of reckless troublemakers, queue-jumpers, potential terrorists, or, at best, "illegals"? If so, you probably interpret their hunger strike as a welcome confirmation of your beliefs. Sewing up their lips? Threatening suicide in response to the harshness of their treatment? There you go ... told you they were hopeless - we don't want people like that in Australia.

You probably wanted to believe that refugees were the kind of people who would throw their children overboard from a sinking boat. Even when it turned out there wasn't a thread of evidence to support that mischievous claim, you clung to the idea - rather like a refugee clinging to a sinking boat - because it kept your prejudice afloat.

If, on the other hand, you believe the detainees are in a desperate situation and, based on recent trends, most of them will turn out to be genuine refugees with a strong claim for asylum, then you'll see recent events at Woomera as a national disgrace. You'll regard the hunger strikers as expressing justified outrage at being treated more brutally than we treat our criminals, and the Federal Government's response to the crisis as both hard-hearted and morally indefensible.

Mindsets are such powerful protectors of our beliefs and prejudices that even a frontal attack can be rebuffed with ease. Indeed, the most blatant attacks are the ones most likely to fail. When someone throws a punch, you duck or counter-punch as a reflex reaction, and that's precisely what happens when someone throws a metaphorical punch at your fondly held beliefs.

The very arguments that inspire our supporters to agree with us inspire our opponents to disagree. That is one of the great frustrations of communication: the same piece of information (such as this column) can serve the purposes of people on both sides of the argument.

The greatest irony in all this is that when we attack our opponents' views, they are not simply unmoved by our arguments - they become even more entrenched in their resistance than they were before we forced them to defend their position.

Case in point: as the situation in the detention centres appears to move beyond the inhumane to the outrageous - with welfare agencies offering hospitality to refugees and international criticism of Australia becoming more vociferous - the Federal Government remains intransigent.

The Prime Minister and Immigration Minister seem almost to thrive on the attacks on their policy, just as religious minorities thrive on persecution. Even as the talk now turns to repatriation, the policy of mandatory detention is being reasserted with full prime ministerial vigour, and there is no hint that conditions at Woomera might be eased.

Still, we must presume the government is not evil, so it will eventually dawn on the minister that no amount of "illegality" in the means of refugees' arrival can justify the harshness of our treatment of them in detention centres. (Already there is talk of restarting the processing of visa applications, but why did that process ever stop?)

Ministers, like all of us, know that two wrongs don't make a right and that the inhumane treatment of anyone in our midst, however they come to be here, diminishes us as a society. The acid test of the decency of any society is the way it deals with the disadvantaged, the drop-outs, the criminals and, yes, the "aliens". A growing number of Australians - though still apparently a minority - think we are failing that test.

There are legitimate issues, still to be properly debated, about border protection, about repatriation of refugees no longer seeking asylum, and about aid to Afghanistan. But all that is separate from the question of how we should treat fellow human beings who, for whatever reason, have fetched up on Australia's shores as refugees.

So, what now? Will the government respond to the moral imperative, or will the weight of community opinion embolden the government to rank populism above moral precept, at least in its rhetoric? Or will the government, knowing it has erred, finally modify its approach to the treatment of detainees, especially children, while continuing to suggest that nothing has changed?

That would be a fancy piece of moral footwork: "I want to do the right thing, but I don't want you to know I'm doing it." Still, when mindsets are powerful enough, we can convince ourselves that we haven't changed our minds even while our actions suggest otherwise.

Hugh Mackay is an author and social researcher.
 

Rocky

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I say $3,000:00 to send them back,via Qantas and at our expense.Not even Mr.Ruddock knows what is going on and Little Johhny says that he is honest.Why should we pay to send them back.They came to this country illegially,so send them back illegally,vie the first boat out even if it is a warship.
We dont need or want them here.
20-30 years ago people cam here via ship or boat,but them came in the front door.If these idiots can afford $10,000:00 to come in the back door well why not spend it the LEGAL way.
I hate this subject....I am sorry I started it...CHRIST give me strength
 

evade28

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jail? yeah right, more like a bloody machine gun or something. if i turned up at their country dressed like i am i would be stoned 2 death the second they saw me. they expect us to abide by their laws but when they get here its a different kettle of fish isnt it now, burning down the place, sewing their lips and just generally carrying on like fools. if they did that in their own country they would be killed.
 

BrisGirl

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I am not sure the waiting period is for immigrants, at a guess, 3 years. Immigrants do it the correct way, put their names down to come to Australia and do all of the correct procedures to make it happen.

Let say we have boat people - refugees. Who do not have the civilisation to have the opportunity to put their name down and wait the required time frame to get the permission. They hop on a boat and they land on Australia without passports and can not speak a word of english.

I believe that refugees could be detained for the same time period as the Immigrants have to wait and in that period, they learn to speak English and have all of the required needles and health checks. So when they are placed in the community, they are well and healthy and can speak English.

I am not sure how I would react if I had no idea how long I would be locked up for. Humans have a great capacity for tolerance and patience, but it helps if they also know when there will be a light at the end of the tunnel. If there is no light, no end...what is left?
 
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Interesting comments by the Human Rights Commission after their visit to Woomera:-

6 February 2002

Media Statement by President Professor Alice Tay AM and
Dr Sev Ozdowski, Human Rights Commissioner OAM

Woomera Immigration Detention Centre Report of visit by HREOC officers

HREOC officers recently completed a fact finding mission to Woomera IRPC, as part of the National Inquiry into Children in Immigration Detention currently being undertaken by the Commission.

The five day assessment was extremely thorough and included interviews with children, children with their family, parents, single men and women; in all, eleven families were interviewed and approximately twenty children.

The officers also spoke with the DIMIA Business Manager, the ACM Centre Manager, as well as the following ACM staff: Director of Programs, Medical Services Co-ordinator, Medical Officer, ACM officers (including an ACM officer responsible for unaccompanied minors) Activities Officer and Psychologist

All members of the Commission met on Friday 1 February to consider the report of the visit. Based on the evidence provided to it, the Commission concluded that there are clear breaches of the Convention on the Rights of the Child, to which Australia is a signatory.

Summary of Officers' Observations

Self-harming behaviour

The official statistics provided to HREOC officers by ACM indicated the following incidents of self-harm occurred over a two week period:

Lip sewing: 5 children (one 14 year old sewed his lips twice)
Slashing: 3 children (the above child also slashed "freedom" into his forearm)
Ingestion of shampoo: 2 children
Attempted hanging: 1 child
Threats of self hurt: 13 children

This is a significant proportion of the total child population of 236 at the Centre. It would indicate that, not unsurprisingly, children are responding to the atmosphere of despair in which they live. It is self-evident that manifestations such as these are likely to permanently mark the psychological outlook of these children. HREOC officers in discussion with ACM found no evidence of parents encouraging children to engage in acts of self harm.

Interviews by HREOC officers with children produced many responses that indicated a propensity for self harm and suicidal thoughts.

Examples from three interviews:

Interview 1 (12 year old girl)
"I am getting crazy, I cut my hand. I can't talk to my mother. I can't talk to anyone and I am very tired. There is no solution for me - I just have to commit suicide - there is no choice."

Interview 2 (16 year old boy)
"Some of us, we not have anyone in here. What can we do except kill ourselves? If no-one help us, I kill myself. If I kill myself, at least I do something for the people."

Interview 3 (13 year old boy - quote from family member)
"We notice that while he sleeps he talks and screams: "fire, fire, fire", and jumps up from sleep in nightmares... We ask him to go and bring a book and he forgets about that and when he is walking he walks disordered and is not concentrating."

That children are suffering psychological trauma from these experiences would seem beyond doubt.

Schooling

HREOC officers also observed that despite ACM's efforts to provide schooling opportunities for the children, this is confined to those aged twelve and under, and is not comparable in any way to the education received by Australian twelve year olds. There are a number of children over 12 years of age who virtually receive no schooling at all. All children are taught in the one classroom. Education is provided for a total of only two hours a day, four days a week.

This is contrary to Australia's obligations under Article 28 of the Convention on the Rights of the Child to provide educational opportunities to all children within its jurisdiction

Conclusion

Breaches of the Convention on the Rights of the Child

Based on evidence such as that referred to above, the Commission is of the view that Woomera IRPC places the Commonwealth in breach of its obligations under the Convention on the Rights of the Child, particularly (but not restricted to) Article 19(1) "State parties shall take all appropriate legislative, administrative, social and educational measures to protect the children from all forms of physical or mental violence, injury or abuse, neglect or negligent treatment, maltreatment or exploitation, whilst in the care of legal guardian(s) or any other person who has the care of the child."

The Government also needs to reassess its position concerning Articles 6(2) (child's right to survival and development); 22(1) (ensure the protection of rights of child refugees or asylum seekers); 24 (child's right to highest attainable standard of health); 27 (child's right to adequate standard of living); 31 (child's right to play and recreational activities); 37(c) (the right of the child deprived of liberty to be treated with humanity and respect); 39 (promotion of physical and psychological recovery of child victim of neglect, abuse etc) and most particularly 37(b) of the Convention which states: "…… Detention shall be used only as a measure of last resort and for the shortest appropriate period of time." with particular emphasis to Woomera.

HREOC officers reported that Woomera IRPC is now enveloped in a self- reinforcing miasma of despair and desperation, and there was a wide spread sense of despair due to the length of time in detention and the concomitant uncertainty over status. It is this uncertainty that asylum seekers have indicated is at the root cause of fire and property destruction in November and hunger strikes and incidents of self-harm in late January. This is not an appropriate environment for children.

The Commission has written to Immigration Minister Mr Philip Ruddock bringing these breaches to his attention. The Commission now awaits the Minister's response as to how these breaches will be immediately rectified.

Media contact: Janine MacDonald: 0408 469 347


you can also find some of the pictures they took at the following site http://www.humanrights.gov.au/media_releases/2002/06_02.html


at least we are now finally seeing some actual facts come out about Woomera
 
B

Briedis

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This country seems to be running on fear from these people. I think that it's very sad that we can't help these people and so many Australians have such a hostile attitude towards them.

Detension, whilst we work out their status, OK I guess there is no alternative, but that is not really the issue for me. I can't believe how many people want them to be shipped back home. What are you afraid of? We have all come here looking for a better life, why deny it of these people?
 

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