News Workhorse (Priddis) Improves Efficiency

[Rids]

Rids is the stats man for West Coast. I remember that!

Nah, I don't work for West Coast - for the AFL via CD (just Subi Oval games)

 

[The Dodger]

Correct (well for short kicks, i.e. <40 metres) - I guess the point of this is that you don't score any points for short kicks to a contest.


Possibly yes - although I would note it doesn't matter how much space you're in if the player you are kicking to is not in space. Again in the example you use no points are awarded so although it is not a negative score it is certainly not helping towards a high ranking.

But IMO it is a negative in the view of "impacting the game in a positive way", if your teammates afford you space or find you in space and you take 0 advantage of your privileged position that should be seen as a negative. I'm interested to know in that scenario I gave before of the helicopter kicked by Priddis say forces Kennedy to get a contested possession after the ball was spoiled, from on the ground and he gets awarded points for a contested possession does Priddis get positive points because Kennedy worked his butt off to make the play successful? Because to me it would seem that if you have to award someone down the line extra points for contested possy that should result in 0 (or negative if you were open and couldn't deliver the ball to him). His contested possy came about because of your lack of skill.

Yep. More relevant in Priddis' case is that it also awards points for how you get hold of the ball - i.e. handball receives or uncontested marks are worth very little where as hard ball gets or contested marks are worth good points. Priddis leads the league in contested possessions and this is where he picks up a lot of his points. He also tends to be involved in a lot of scoring plays either directly (i.e. direct score assist, i.e. last possession before a score is scored) or indirectly (i.e. involved in a chain of uninterrupted play that leads to a score) which are higher weighted possessions.

Yeah the contested side of his game would get him a lot of points. Which is why I am suprised at where Kennedy is in the rankings. 2nd in the league in contested marks, he fights like all hell on the deck when things are spilled near him, he is 3rd(?) in goal kicking in the league and he is involved in a lot of goal assists.

No, this isn't quite right - if his team-mate runs onto it, this is an effective disposal.

Is the risk/reward taken into account? Handball for space more likely to be picked up by the opposition which = -points/or swooped on by team mate for breaking away F50 entry? As opposed to handball to guy standing next to you who gets tackled immediately.

There are a couple of issues with doing this:
1) There are a huge amount of different stat types that are taken into account and listing them all is unrealistic, i.e. for a kick you can have short kick, long kick, ground kick, ineffective kick, clanger kick plus inside 50, rebound 50 or any scoring results for any of the above options. There are a lot of smaller stats that are recorded as well - i.e. knock-ons, spoils, blocks etc.
2) The rankings are normalised - this happens both within a game and between games. For instance within a game, if the match is blown out of the water early then first quarter statistics will be weighted higher (as that was when the game was close). Conversely if the game goes down to the wire last quarter statistics are weighted higher. Between games every match is normalised such that they all finish with about 3,300 ranking points awarded. This is designed on the basis that every game is worth the same 4 points ... although it does mean that a good performer in an otherwise ordinary game can get a more highly rated performance than a good performer in a cracking game where there are plenty of other good performers.
So although there is a nominal points per stat it does change based on the normalisation described above.

Understood about the amount of calculations. That evening out does seem a bit wrong. I understand the need to normalise weighting but if the stats were true a game played at a higher skill level with multiple people putting in good performances needs to far outweigh a thumping dominated by 1 or 2 players, how do you see it?

I have a bit of inside knowledge ...

Ahh I see, do you do just footy or is CD used for Cricket and other sports? what other fields are you involved with?

One last question, you picked up a loose ball at the top of the goal square you turn and under no pressure hit the post, are you docked points? or do you get a point or 2 for possession and a point or 2 for the behind? As that is another situation where IMO you impact negatively but may still be rewarded points.

 

[Rids]

But IMO it is a negative in the view of "impacting the game in a positive way", if your teammates afford you space or find you in space and you take 0 advantage of your privileged position that should be seen as a negative.

Fair point - in extreme circumstances, i.e. simple pass on offer and no pressure on ball carrier we may call clanger but to be honest that is the (very rare) exception rather than the rule and the opposition would certainly have to come away with the ball from the spoil for this to be called clanger. The punishment is zero points being awarded rather than positive points.

I'm interested to know in that scenario I gave before of the helicopter kicked by Priddis say forces Kennedy to get a contested possession after the ball was spoiled, from on the ground and he gets awarded points for a contested possession does Priddis get positive points because Kennedy worked his butt off to make the play successful? Because to me it would seem that if you have to award someone down the line extra points for contested possy that should result in 0 (or negative if you were open and couldn't deliver the ball to him). His contested possy came about because of your lack of skill.

No, in this scenario Priddis gets no points for his disposal because it was ineffective. The fact that Kennedy ultimately won possession means extra points for him (contested rather than uncontested) but does not impact the fact that the disposal in your example was ineffective.

Yeah the contested side of his game would get him a lot of points. Which is why I am suprised at where Kennedy is in the rankings. 2nd in the league in contested marks, he fights like all hell on the deck when things are spilled near him, he is 3rd(?) in goal kicking in the league and he is involved in a lot of goal assists.

Kennedy goes pretty well. He is the 10th ranked forward in the competition and if you look at those above him (Pav, O'Keefe, Fyfe, Buddy, Harvey, Roughead, Sylvia, Stevie J and Goodes) I would argue only Buddy plays as a genuine key forward and the rest spend far more time up ground and a better comparison would be against the midfielders (ruck in Roughead's case). There is a pretty large list of key forwards ranked below Kennedy in 2011.

Is the risk/reward taken into account? Handball for space more likely to be picked up by the opposition which = -points/or swooped on by team mate for breaking away F50 entry? As opposed to handball to guy standing next to you who gets tackled immediately.

No ... well not directly anyway. I guess you could argue that the handball into space is more likely to lead to a goal which means more points.

It should be noted that the example of a handball to a team-mate who gets tackled immediately is an ineffective disposal so no points awarded.

Understood about the amount of calculations. That evening out does seem a bit wrong. I understand the need to normalise weighting but if the stats were true a game played at a higher skill level with multiple people putting in good performances needs to far outweigh a thumping dominated by 1 or 2 players, how do you see it?

Similar to you I suspect - I understand why they do the normalisation procedure but it does seem wrong that a game between Port and Gold Coast gets the same amount of points awarded as one between the Pies and the Cats. Not sure how to overcome that (should be noted that I just call the games, I have nothing to do with coming up the scoring system)

Ahh I see, do you do just footy or is CD used for Cricket and other sports? what other fields are you involved with?

I am pretty sure CD does other sports but for me it is very much a casual thing - it is not my main occupation. I just call Subi Oval games because I love the footy, have a stats background in addition to a footy background and have pretty handy player id skills. Plus it gives me the excuse to Mrs Rids that I should watch plenty of games over the weekend ... you know on research grounds

One last question, you picked up a loose ball at the top of the goal square you turn and under no pressure hit the post, are you docked points? or do you get a point or 2 for possession and a point or 2 for the behind? As that is another situation where IMO you impact negatively but may still be rewarded points.

Nope - fair point probably should deduct points but if you make too many 'exceptions' where, say, a clanger can be called instead then caller discretion can start to play too big a part in the stats process which is a bit dangerous when trying to maintain consistency across all games.

Should be noted you wouldn't get any points for the behind though - this is still an ineffective possession so no points awarded for the disposal.

 

[Monkey Worshipper]

I got a funny feeling this thread will be resurrected tonight. Terrible player defenselvely.

 

[sTeeL]

Wot? The only midfielder who did anything just about tonight.

 

[September_Glory]

Matt Priddis needs to realize he is Matt Priddis and not Shannon Hurn. He can't be trying to pinpoint difficult passes through the corridor. It's sooooo costly.

sTeeL, you have got to be kidding? Priddis has had a terrible game but, like you said, he's not alone.

 

[Kernel Sanders]

Wot? The only midfielder who did anything just about tonight.

He wasn't a Pat Malone,

But he was shocking. Got the ball but turned it over time and time again. And when the Saints had their run on, he's a liability, they carved through him like butter.

 

[September_Glory]

Also, Shuey was our best mid tonight by a mile

 

[Rids]

I got a funny feeling this thread will be resurrected tonight. Terrible player defenselvely.

Well you did resurrect it?

Jones - 15 possessions, 9 effective - no goals, no goal assists - yeah he was awful defensively

 

[Rids]

Got the ball but turned it over time and time again. And when the Saints had their run on, he's a liability, they carved through him like butter.

Well turned it over 3 times ... from 27 possessions ... and 2 of those were a rushed handball forward from a pack (the other was sadly a shocker in the last term). Went at 70% disposal efficiency and after getting beaten by Jones better was instrumental in our 3rd term comeback. I really don't understand why the one guy who always contributes gets bagged by some on this site, of all the stupid scapegoats that people try to blame, this is the stupidest.

 

[Eagle87]

Well you did resurrect it?

Jones - 15 possessions, 9 effective - no goals, no goal assists - yeah he was awful defensively

Are you related? Serious question ...

He was awful tonight. I don't give a shit whether that was defensively or not, he was just poor. When the heat was on early he just gave a series of "here, you sort it out, ****ed if I can" handballs ... he showed nothing.

It took Ebert (whose disposal is career threatening) and Gaff to start to turn the tide...

We missed Kerr terribly tonight and ultimately we were comprehensively beaten through the middle for most of the night...

Once our 2 or 3 damaging mids slowed we had nothing... Priddis is what exactly? He was killed inside much of the night and got many many of his possessions in space and created nothing bar one decent forward 50 kick, that I could have made given the lack of pressure...

I now await some stats from your employer that will tell of us who actually understand the game how he got an awesome CD score or similar.

He was shit today, admit that and move on .....

 

[Eagle87]

Well turned it over 3 times ... from 27 possessions ... and 2 of those were a rushed handball forward from a pack (the other was sadly a shocker in the last term). Went at 70% disposal efficiency and after getting beaten by Jones better was instrumental in our 3rd term comeback. I really don't understand why the one guy who always contributes gets bagged by some on this site, of all the stupid scapegoats that people try to blame, this is the stupidest.

There we go, those lovely stats again.

Do you actually grasp the game of footy at all?

Mate, he gave 3 or 4 handballs to blokes in completely shit positions, those blokes then sidestepped 2 or 3 Saints and got a possession away. And your shithouse stats count that as an effective disposal for Priddis. 1m handballs to blokes who give 1m handballs to blokes who get tackled are ****ing pointless ... but they do result in high DE...

I ask again, do you understand footy at all?

We are trying to turn blokes like Swift into outside receivers to continue to accomodate 80+ minutes a game out of Matty as an "inside" mid and he does zero damage, creates little and plays like a genuine B grader ....

He plays the role and the time in that role normally reserved for a teams number 1 mid. Thats why he cops shit when he plays like a B grade rotation mid. If he was in a role as a rotation mid playing limited minutes and playing a mere role then fine but he gets 27 disposals because of his massive time around contests .... and they don't hurt anywhere near as much as 27 possessions from most top line mids ....

 

[Monkey Worshipper]

I suppose carrying serial butchers of the ball, will this / won't us hold us back in finals, in years to come?


Naming names:


Priddis, A.Selwood, Waters, McKenzie, Ebert, McGinity.


Have high hopes for McKenzie and Ebert, on the fence with Waters.

McGinity does add something to our team. We've seen the best of Priddis and A.Selwod unfortunately.


Having one or 2 of these in the team isn't the problem. It's the collective weight of what they do that is concerning.

 

[September_Glory]

I now await some stats from your employer that will tell of us who actually understand the game how he got an awesome CD score or similar.

It's ridiculous that he was rated ahead of Shuey AND Gaff by that statistical model.

This one example seriously hurts the credibility of CD and DC and SC and SDT. (I made one up).

 

[Eagle87]

I suppose carrying serial butchers of the ball, will this / won't us hold us back in finals, in years to come?


Naming names:


Priddis, A.Selwood, Waters, McKenzie, Ebert, McGinity.


Have high hopes for McKenzie and Ebert, on the fence with Waters.

McGinity does add something to our team. We've seen the best of Priddis and A.Selwod unfortunately.


Having one or 2 of these in the team isn't the problem. It's the collective weight of what they do that is concerning.

The worry with Mackenzie is it seems pressure related. Most of the time he is fine but then loses all composure at critical times. Not a great trait but hopefully one that improves with games ...

But I agree with your point, its the collective weight of dud guys particularly those that are often large possesion players. Too many times we see a kick or handball to a guy in space, running forward and we (as supporters) go, "oh shit, not him.... hoping, hoping, hoping ..."

 

[Rids]

Are you related? Serious question ...

No

He was awful tonight. I don't give a shit whether that was defensively or not, he was just poor. When the heat was on early he just gave a series of "here, you sort it out, ****ed if I can" handballs ... he showed nothing.

Yep struggled (both ways) for the first quarter and a half, after that was good.

It took Ebert (whose disposal is career threatening) and Gaff to start to turn the tide...

Yep Ebert was okay and Gaff was brilliant (I would have said Naitanui and Gaff).

We missed Kerr terribly tonight and ultimately we were comprehensively beaten through the middle for most of the night...

We were smashed in quarter one on the back of a Montagna and Dal Santo masterclass after which point I thought we comfortably won the midfield battle. Agree would have been nice to have Kerr though.

Once our 2 or 3 damaging mids slowed we had nothing... Priddis is what exactly? He was killed inside much of the night and got many many of his possessions in space and created nothing bar one decent forward 50 kick, that I could have made given the lack of pressure...

Got 15 possessions in space and 12 contested, hit a target with 15 of his possessions and found a 50/50 or better with another 4 including many that he won under pressure. I have not seen enough of you play to know whether you would have made the same passes.

I now await some stats from your employer that will tell of us who actually understand the game how he got an awesome CD score or similar.

Probably ... and the newspapers ... and the coaches ... and the majority of the fans ... but no, they're all wrong and you're right

He was shit today, admit that and move on .....

He was shit for a quarter and a half. One of his great assets is that he seemingly never can be shut out of a contest all match and again that was the case today. Jones isn't a bad tagger but the further the game went the more space Priddis got and the more touches he got around the contest.

 

[Monkey Worshipper]

He was shit for a quarter and a half. One of his great assets is that he seemingly never can be shut out of a contest all match and again that was the case today. Jones isn't a bad tagger but the further the game went the more space Priddis got and the more touches he got around the contest.

Two Things

1. Did we get back into the contest because he dragged us back in or did others lift and he just got sucked into that wining vortex?

So, is he a game changing, damaging midfielder?


2. Got more touches around the contest in space as the game went on. That is exactly who you would least want to get posessions in open space bar anyone on our list including Ebert.

Yes, he does the win the ball. Yes, when all things are going our way in the midfield, he is is superb at extracting the ball and feeding those around him. But those around him need to be having belters.

But what you do not want, is Priddis in open space, setting up play / delivery. He is slow, and has extremely, extremely low hurt factor.


When the game is played on Priddis's terms, contested scrum after scrum, he is in his element. As soon as the play is opened up or the opposition has a run on, he is a liability.

He is the best in the league at one thing and one thing only. Getting his hands on the ball and extracting that ball. Then the opportunities he creates from getting that ball are woefully inadequate. Has no creativity in his game and his posessions ultimately result in those around him being under pressure and eventual turnovers.

Not Priddis's fault. It's the coach that keeps selecting him time and time again. In this day and age of players being multi-skilled and able to play multiple positions, Priddis has only one set position, the No 1 Midfielder. It's the only thing he can do, to the detrement to the whole team.

We have People on here banging on about Masten being a dud and why couldn't hack it on a HFF last year. Yet Priddis escapes the same scrutinty / flexiblity that every other player on our list comes under.

Why?

 

[Eagle87]

No

Surprising. Although as said previously stats guys have always had an unnatural affection for the bloke.

Yep struggled (both ways) for the first quarter and a half, after that was good.

He was shit. He needed to stand up as our main inside mid, our senior guy and he showed precisely nothing.

Yep Ebert was okay and Gaff was brilliant (I would have said Naitanui and Gaff).

I was looking specifically at mids. NN was fantastic and is the anti-Priddis. Lowish stats, massive impact.

We were smashed in quarter one on the back of a Montagna and Dal Santo masterclass after which point I thought we comfortably won the midfield battle. Agree would have been nice to have Kerr though.

Yes, it was actually nice seeing mids who actually know how to hurt teams and CREATE stuff when they have the ball, with either good skills, good decisions, vision or line breaking running. All skills Priddis lacks.

Got 15 possessions in space and 12 contested, hit a target with 15 of his possessions and found a 50/50 or better with another 4 including many that he won under pressure. I have not seen enough of you play to know whether you would have made the same passes.

Indeed. Nearly all of those "here, you sort it out" handballs went directly to a team mate. Gaff, with one kick, showed more class than Priddis has in an entire career.

Probably ... and the newspapers ... and the coaches ... and the majority of the fans ... but no, they're all wrong and you're right

None of which has anything to do with tonight. He was shit. Proved again why he needs to be moved aside if we hope to beat real teams in big games.

He was shit for a quarter and a half. One of his great assets is that he seemingly never can be shut out of a contest all match and again that was the case today. Jones isn't a bad tagger but the further the game went the more space Priddis got and the more touches he got around the contest.

I agree he is fit and runs all day. I just prefer when he doesn't get the ball in space, ever, cos he is a very very ordinary conveyance when he does.

 

[bodazoka]

When we loose this thread always gets a run..

Im about as interested in negative Priddis opinions as I am about Tony Abbot explaining the carbon tax.

 

[Eagle87]

When we loose this thread always gets a run..

Im about as interested in negative Priddis opinions as I am about Tony Abbot explaining the carbon tax.

Mate, I've pointed this out roughly 400 times before, including in a PM so as to try and save you the "pain" but its LOSE ... L.O.S.E ....

Loose is what you are with the truth when you rate Matty.

 

[bodazoka]

Mate, I've pointed this out roughly 400 times before, including in a PM so as to try and save you the "pain" but its LOSE ... L.O.S.E ....

Loose is what you are with the truth when you rate Matty.

Dont care TBH.

 

[tesseract]

When we loose this thread always gets a run..

Im about as interested in negative Priddis opinions as I am about Tony Abbot explaining the carbon tax.

Not when the Eagles lose, just when Priddis spuds it up.

 

[Eagle87]

Dont care TBH.

Fair enough too. Literacy is over rated.

I love in when bogans celebrate their, well, bogan-ness

 

[Monkey Worshipper]

I'd just like to know 3 games a year what / how our midfield would funcion with someone else as the No.1 midfielder?

How would Stevens go in the guts as the No.1 midfielder. How do we not know he is a better player than Priddis with better creativity? Don't know and will never know.

What about Masten as the No.1 midfielder?

Ebert?

Swift - what about if he's a future star in there? Never going to know.


Because Priddis isn't good enough to play anywhere else.


Do you think that's fair? "Mate, doesn't matter how bad a game you have, you've got our No 1 midfield role as long as you like".

 

[Avalor]

Gaff, with one kick, showed more class than Priddis has in an entire career.

Unfortunately, amongst all that, this one statement clearly shows your bias / hate for Priddis. That is very, very disrespectful of all Priddis has done for the club. I'm as disappointed as you at the loss, but leave it alone!