Socceroos World Cup Qualifiers Third Round - Australia V Vietnam/Oman

[jhong]

no one is flying in to save us , they won't sack Arnold , that
would admit they screwed up in the first place.
tell me who in the Oman team is playing in a high league ? Any one ??
We have a team that thinks being the first to score , or the first to equalize , is doing their job enough.

 

[Leon]

Colombia, Uruguay, Peru or Chile? Zero chance, besides Arnold we just don’t have the talent.

I say we get the 2005 side that beat Uruguay if we’re up against them again.


Even all in their mid 40’s/early 50’s I’d give them a better chance of beating them than our current group.

 

[GOALden Hawk]

Ange is a terrific manager but we didn't have the cattle for his style of play. It's not surprising he was successful in Japan and is doing a great job at Celtic. He has ambition which Arnold doesn't have. Not only are the players not good enough, we're just awful to watch.

This is a great point. There has been a bit revisionist history with Ange’s reign at the Socceroos since his recent successes.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m an Ange disciple and love his philosophy on coaching, his leadership and what he is doing for Australian football. Winning the Asian Cup in 2015 was underestimated a bit at the time, major trophies don’t grow on trees.

Having said that, his style of play was starting to struggle with our national team by 2017. We simply didn’t have the cattle to execute his game plan. I remember the frustration on Matty Ryan constantly going short from goal kicks only for us to turn it over in our defensive third. Ange didn’t want to change it as he has a firm belief in how football should be played. But you can’t just transfer in players capable of it at international level.

What we needed to do is implement Ange’s philosophies at junior levels and then hope it bore fruit.

Instead he got hounded out of the job, and we brought in a cheap option who has since taken us out of the Asian Cup at the QFs (against UAE), out of the Olympics at the group stage and likely out of the World Cup for the first time since 2002. And offers nothing in terms of the vision and inspiration Ange had, or the motivation or tactical nous of Guus. And he worked with both of them!

It’s a long way back before we have the Socceroos play like Celtic did this morning. Our best bet in the short term is a manager with outstanding tactical nous who were willing to invest in for a four year cycle.

 

[GOALden Hawk]

USA / Canada would be the closest comparison. And we compare pretty favourably.

And Canada are basically through to the World Cup, undefeated in qualifying. That’s the model we should be studying.

 

[CakeEater]

This is a great point. There has been a bit revisionist history with Ange’s reign at the Socceroos since his recent successes.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m an Ange disciple and love his philosophy on coaching, his leadership and what he is doing for Australian football. Winning the Asian Cup in 2015 was underestimated a bit at the time, major trophies don’t grow on trees.

Having said that, his style of play was starting to struggle with our national team by 2017. We simply didn’t have the cattle to execute his game plan. I remember the frustration on Matty Ryan constantly going short from goal kicks only for us to turn it over in our defensive third. Ange didn’t want to change it as he has a firm belief in how football should be played. But you can’t just transfer in players capable of it at international level.

What we needed to do is implement Ange’s philosophies at junior levels and then hope it bore fruit.

Instead he got hounded out of the job, and we brought in a cheap option who has since taken us out of the Asian Cup at the QFs (against UAE), out of the Olympics at the group stage and likely out of the World Cup for the first time since 2002. And offers nothing in terms of the vision and inspiration Ange had, or the motivation or tactical nous of Guus. And he worked with both of them!

It’s a long way back before we have the Socceroos play like Celtic did this morning. Our best bet in the short term is a manager with outstanding tactical nous who were willing to invest in for a four year cycle.

Always worth a rewatch

 

[TheGreatBarryB]

Always worth a rewatch

Just first couple of minutes is good. Foster brings up losing to Laos. Ange counters with it was a draw and a few of their players were found to be over age

 

[CakeEater]

Just first couple of minutes is good. Foster brings up losing to Laos. Ange counters with it was a draw and a few of their players were found to be over age

Some of the 13 mins is a cat fight

 

[Nuke Fremantle]

The moment the A(rse) League was founded it was inevitable standards would drop off. Giving a comfortable wage to mediocre journeymen footballers with no incentive to push themselves was a recipe for failure.

 

[TheGreatBarryB]

The moment the A(rse) League was founded it was inevitable standards would drop off. Giving a comfortable wage to mediocre journeymen footballers with no incentive to push themselves was a recipe for failure.

On the contrary, I think not expanding the comp years earlier and having a place for younger players to compete has cost us

 

[corbies]

This is a great point. There has been a bit revisionist history with Ange’s reign at the Socceroos since his recent successes.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m an Ange disciple and love his philosophy on coaching, his leadership and what he is doing for Australian football. Winning the Asian Cup in 2015 was underestimated a bit at the time, major trophies don’t grow on trees.

Having said that, his style of play was starting to struggle with our national team by 2017. We simply didn’t have the cattle to execute his game plan. I remember the frustration on Matty Ryan constantly going short from goal kicks only for us to turn it over in our defensive third. Ange didn’t want to change it as he has a firm belief in how football should be played. But you can’t just transfer in players capable of it at international level.

What we needed to do is implement Ange’s philosophies at junior levels and then hope it bore fruit.

Instead he got hounded out of the job, and we brought in a cheap option who has since taken us out of the Asian Cup at the QFs (against UAE), out of the Olympics at the group stage and likely out of the World Cup for the first time since 2002. And offers nothing in terms of the vision and inspiration Ange had, or the motivation or tactical nous of Guus. And he worked with both of them!

It’s a long way back before we have the Socceroos play like Celtic did this morning. Our best bet in the short term is a manager with outstanding tactical nous who were willing to invest in for a four year cycle.

I'm still a bit confused as to who hounded Ange out? Was it people within Football Australia because I can only really remember some of the Fox boys going hard and really only Robbie Slater doing so in a way that was ott? The rest were making pretty fair points I thought. Ange had talked about Australia needing to debate where we want to go as a footballing nation but from my perspective that debate was happening around his decision to go 3 at the back. But he was refusing to be part of that debate as every time he was asked about it he'd give a vague response about needing to adapt.

I was a questioner of those tactics but I never wanted him to be sacked or resign. I was extremely disappointed when he quit.

 

[And_ROOS]

Rafa Benitez says hi.

Can we have 04/05 Rafa the Gaffa?

 

[ioppolo]

100% he is, has had success in multiple leagues across the world.

Unfortunately though, he didn't have the talent to execute his football consistently, so should he have changed his style for our team or should we have produced better players?

For me the biggest issue we have even before management, is our players suck.

Low technical ability, non existent flair, a fear of looking silly or like a hog at junior level so a lot of creativity is coached out of players, and so many poor decisions for league choices by the squad, players either on the bench or playing in sub standard leagues.

We didn't have the talent to execute. Plain and simple. It's a bit on him but he can only polish a turd so much.

 

[hey shorty]

We didn't have the talent to execute. Plain and simple. It's a bit on him but he can only polish a turd so much.

And theres the difference between a good club manager and a good international manager. Ange did a good, even great job in the early days of his Socceroos tenure, but as the talent waned, he needed to find another way to get the best out of the squad.

Arnold has a similar issue but magnified several times

 

[Angry Red Bull]

And theres the difference between a good club manager and a good international manager. Ange did a good, even great job in the early days of his Socceroos tenure, but as the talent waned, he needed to find another way to get the best out of the squad.

Arnold has a similar issue but magnified several times

We've outplayed virtually every opposition with the exception of Japan who we were pretty much level with. More goals and greater goal difference than anyone. We simply lost points we shouldn't in the China, Oman games especially but also the SA and Japan games. Pressure on and fingers crossed. We can't keep expecting to win via play offs though.

Soccer is the third sport in a country of 26M. Don't think we will ever reach elite level as some soccer mad nations with greater population and development of youth. Still we don't do too badly imo. Youth and skills development for kids is where we fall down.

 

[Tony Lynn 15]

We've outplayed virtually every opposition with the exception of Japan who we were pretty much level with. More goals and greater goal difference than anyone. We simply lost points we shouldn't in the China, Oman games especially but also the SA and Japan games. Pressure on and fingers crossed. We can't keep expecting to win via play offs though.

Soccer is the third sport in a country of 26M. Don't think we will ever reach elite level as some soccer mad nations with greater population and development of youth. Still we don't do too badly imo. Youth and skills development for kids is where we fall down.

Agree with this.

If the elite talent that currently goes to the AFL and NRL was playing soccer from a young age instead in Australia it would be a different story.

 

[BuddyHawk]

We've outplayed virtually every opposition with the exception of Japan who we were pretty much level with. More goals and greater goal difference than anyone. We simply lost points we shouldn't in the China, Oman games especially but also the SA and Japan games. Pressure on and fingers crossed. We can't keep expecting to win via play offs though.

Soccer is the third sport in a country of 26M. Don't think we will ever reach elite level as some soccer mad nations with greater population and development of youth. Still we don't do too badly imo. Youth and skills development for kids is where we fall down.

You make a good point, as some fans have unrealistic expectations given a) our population, b) the multiple football codes that are played in Aus, thus cannibalising the available talent, and c) perhaps most significantly, the depth of quality in international football, which far outstrips every other team sport.

That being said, I think we should be producing more high-quality male players than what we currently are (I think we're doing okay on the women's soccer front, even if the Matildas are less than the sum of their parts).

Basketball is probably the best comparison we have, as it's also a genuinely global sport with a large participation base in Australia, but without the saturation media coverage that AFL, NRL and cricket receive. We've produced bucketloads of NBA talent in recent years, with our national men's team stronger than it's ever been; by contrast, we don't have a single player getting minutes in the EPL at the moment.

I'd hope that Football Australia is looking at what Basketball Australia is doing with talent identification and development, because whatever it is, it's working a hell of a lot better than it is in soccer.

 

[BuddyHawk]

On the contrary, I think not expanding the comp years earlier and having a place for younger players to compete has cost us

I also think waiting several years to establish an A-League youth competition was a poor decision.

That generation of players who were in their teens in the mid-late 2000s - so are in their late 20s/early 30s now - produced very few top players, and the lack of a national youth league for 3/4 years can't have helped with their development.

 

[jhong]

Still won't admit the pathway that was through the "Ethnic" clubs has not been replaced . The "Golden generation" came through this pathway . We should of had a generation of brilliant players by now . Why haven't we ? The Dutch model has not worked . Having a generation of what ever we were trying to produce has not worked . We have no strikers. Why not ? Why is the A league more like a superannuation league than a production line.
The Footscray JUST team of the 1970's would play the Socceroos' off the park. I hate to say it but missing this world cup wouldn't be the worst thing to happen. Might get the coach sacked . That's would be a start.

 

[gaskin]

It has nothing to do with pathways through the ethnic clubs. The problem is shutting down the Center of Excellence or whatever it was called.

 

[Angry Red Bull]

You make a good point, as some fans have unrealistic expectations given a) our population, b) the multiple football codes that are played in Aus, thus cannibalising the available talent, and c) perhaps most significantly, the depth of quality in international football, which far outstrips every other team sport.

That being said, I think we should be producing more high-quality male players than what we currently are (I think we're doing okay on the women's soccer front, even if the Matildas are less than the sum of their parts).

Basketball is probably the best comparison we have, as it's also a genuinely global sport with a large participation base in Australia, but without the saturation media coverage that AFL, NRL and cricket receive. We've produced bucketloads of NBA talent in recent years, with our national men's team stronger than it's ever been; by contrast, we don't have a single player getting minutes in the EPL at the moment.

I'd hope that Football Australia is looking at what Basketball Australia is doing with talent identification and development, because whatever it is, it's working a hell of a lot better than it is in soccer.

Still won't admit the pathway that was through the "Ethnic" clubs has not been replaced . The "Golden generation" came through this pathway . We should of had a generation of brilliant players by now . Why haven't we ? The Dutch model has not worked . Having a generation of what ever we were trying to produce has not worked . We have no strikers. Why not ? Why is the A league more like a superannuation league than a production line.
The Footscray JUST team of the 1970's would play the Socceroos' off the park. I hate to say it but missing this world cup wouldn't be the worst thing to happen. Might get the coach sacked . That's would be a start.

Skills development is a simple product of skills repetition. The mindset of coaches in kids soccer simply doesn't recognise that nor tries to implement it. In contrast many overseas countries do recognise that. The depth of divisions and the media saturation there means that most kids soccer has coaches that played a reasonable standard and they coach skills repetition. Ergo the depth of player talent is deeper.

My son played under a coach who although terrific in looking after kids didn't develop them. He didn't even know the higher level repetition skills to develop them. I took to doing it with my son on our time.

At the same club was a coach who was skilled at drills and skills training, trained the kids 3 times a week and developed a team where half went to rep football. Time with the ball ....time doing skills. BUT it requires as a start that the parent or coach has exposure to reasonable standard football and has knowledge to know the process. That's where we fail and it happens because we haven't got depth in coach ranks nor understanding of process because the number of players at higher standard is thin.

 

[jhong]

It has nothing to do with pathways through the ethnic clubs. The problem is shutting down the Center of Excellence or whatever it was called.

I did say “was” . That ship sailed decades ago . Shutting down the AIS was also a stupid decision.

 

[Angry Red Bull]

Still won't admit the pathway that was through the "Ethnic" clubs has not been replaced . The "Golden generation" came through this pathway . We should of had a generation of brilliant players by now . Why haven't we ? The Dutch model has not worked . Having a generation of what ever we were trying to produce has not worked . We have no strikers. Why not ? Why is the A league more like a superannuation league than a production line.
The Footscray JUST team of the 1970's would play the Socceroos' off the park. I hate to say it but missing this world cup wouldn't be the worst thing to happen. Might get the coach sacked . That's would be a start.

It's irresistible to get nostalgic about past generations and lose some perspective. To say that a state league club team like Footscray JUST would play the current national team off the park though is plain wrong. That team had 4 representatives in the 74 world cup squad so didn't even dominate the national team. There were some excellent players in that 74 cup notably Atilla Abonyi (as standout who would have represented any country) but even that team lost 2 of its three games and drew the other failing to score a goal and with a negative goal difference of -5. In other words they were outclassed. Back then of course you had no foreign players on the roster........that started much much later with the national competition A league. Yes the majority of these are past their use buy date but it's the exposure of younger players to that experience that's still useful. Ninkovic for example is one of the classiest if not the classiest player to ever play the A league. Any exposure of young talent to him is an invaluable part of their education.

The A league are professional. Any further down they aren't whereas in Europe the professional ranks are 5 deep. Major disadvantage.. What has progressively changed is the tutelage of young players including transfers to foreign clubs. That is a wonderful pathway that didn't exist in the seventies. Clubs even strike up overseas sister club affiliations. These foreign clubs now provide the polish. Sad but is the innevitable reality given that's where the dollars are and the fact talent scouts scour international youth competitions

The problem isn't in youth development once talent is shown. Rather it's in failure of coaching and skills at junior level to bolster the number at higher standard. Ultimately the success of those that step up is directly proportional to the sheer numbers that show the talent to begin to then get the polish and experience.

As regards the argument regarding dearth of strikers I don't think we are too bad to be honest. We have the highest goals for in the current campaign....15. I think some of the younger inductees show good promise too. it's just another position. I don't think there is anything within our approaches that especially disadvantages one position to another including strikers. it's a hard position to play at international level based on current formations.

 

[Freomaniac]

We really do need a clear development path in Australia. Standards have increased so much from 20-30 years ago that we have been somewhat left behind. We certainly have an excellent sporting culture & ethic. I would say one of the best in the world. That's why we are still one of the top nations in Asia despite a relatively small population. But right down to the grassroots & schools things need a reboot.

Ideally we want our elite youth playing first team football here from 16-17 years old and once they dominate the A League head over to Europe. We also need to stop the player drain to the Middle East & Asia. There's really nothing those leagues offer apart from more money (with perhaps the exception of J League 1).

In an ideal world our best young players start their careers here, move to Europe and spend the best part of 8-10 years in high quality European leagues then return home towards the end of their carer. And we should be in a position where we can lose very few players to Asian leagues.


This though is a pipedream atm and will take many long hard years of work. For a start we need to bring back national acadamies like the AIS. They work great for world's number one developer of youth footballers - France.

I agree. The AIS was a good system of developing Socceroos

 

[Freomaniac]

Also, whilst I’m not a fan of Arnold and wouldnt be unhappy to see him gone, the squad plainly isn’t good enough.

We have been declining steadily ever since the 2006 World Cup.

Actually we have been declining since the 2010 world cup.

That 2010 world cup side was among the 1st teams to qualify

 

[AJ_2000]

Actually we have been declining since the 2010 world cup.

That 2010 world cup side was among the 1st teams to qualify

Good qualification, terrible first game against Germany pretty much finished us off.

2015 Asian Cup was peak performance.