Would footy be better without national expansion?

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Roylion

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Why didnt the Fitzroy merger with the Coburg VFA/VFL club work?
What merger? Fitzroy was the naming rights sponsor of the Coburg Football Club. "Fitzroy" was added to the name of Coburg and their 1996 pre-season jumper became Coburg's away jumper in 1999-2000. When Richmond aligned with Coburg inthe VFA, the Fitzroy part was discontinued and Coburg became the Coburg Tigers.
 
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If you say Fitzroy three times Roylion will appear behind you, armed with the sword of vengeance and the shield of pedantry.

Can you answer the question? When was Subiaco was ejected from the WAFL competition?
Subiaco was ejected from the highest level (his actual words) when the West Coast Eagles joined the VFL.
 

HPKS

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Subiaco was ejected from the highest level (his actual words) when the West Coast Eagles joined the VFL.
It’s rediculous what they’re arguing about. They both lost out. One got kicked out of its league n the other, if the AFL ever gets started, will play in a third tier league.

It’s like saying in the after life I died more because I got burnt to death n you only got shot to death.

Both your clubs got screwed over by the advent of the afl.
 

Roylion

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If you say Fitzroy three times Roylion will appear behind you, armed with the sword of vengeance and the shield of pedantry.
You seem to talk about about Essendon a fair bit.

Subiaco was ejected from the highest level (his actual words) when the West Coast Eagles joined the VFL.
And once again.

There's a significant difference between Subiaco's and Fitzroy's experience
is what I am saying. Subiaco continues in the same competition against the same traditional rivals. All Subiaco's WAFL club records, such as their thirteen premierships continue. When Subiaco next wins a premiership as part of the same competition they've been in since 1901, that will be their fourteenth WAFL premiership. Fitzroy will never play their traditional rivals Collingwood or Carlton again and their hundred year old VFL/AFL records are finished. They will never have a Brownlow Medallist, never play on the MCG again, never be able to add to their eight VFL-AFL premierships.
 

HPKS

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You seem to talk about about Essendon a fair bit.



And once again.

There's a significant difference between Subiaco's and Fitzroy's experience
is what I am saying. Subiaco continues in the same competition against the same traditional rivals. All Subiaco's WAFL club records, such as their thirteen premierships continue. When Subiaco next wins a premiership as part of the same competition they've been in since 1901, that will be their fourteenth WAFL premiership. Fitzroy will never play their traditional rivals Collingwood or Carlton again and their hundred year old VFL/AFL records are finished. They will never have a Brownlow Medallist, never play on the MCG again, never be able to add to their eight VFL-AFL premierships.
It’s rediculous what they’re arguing about. They both lost out. One got kicked out of its league n the other, if the AFL reserves ever gets started, will play in a third tier league.

It’s like saying in the after life I died more because I got burnt to death n you only got shot to death.

Both your clubs got screwed over by the advent of the afl.
 

Kwality

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Can you answer the question? When was Subiaco was ejected from the WAFL competition?
Given my comment had a context, i.e competing at the top level, but you are unable/unwilling to grasp this basic fact, you aren't fair dinkum.

WA & SA fans made a significant commitment to the national comp, more than their Victorian counterparts as was foreseen in the 80s, the VFL could not be trusted, it was & the game nationally is the worse for it.

Reference this from an alter ego of The Wookie:
  • 1986 – August 5. The VFL decides not to adopt rationalistion and announces it will take 12 teams into its proposed national competition in 1987.
  • 1986 – August 7. SA and WA say they will reconsider joining the national competition after the VFL voted to retain all 12 clubs in the league. WA and SA had been working under the belief that there were be some rationalisation and the league would be composed of 12 clubs and not 14.
  • 1986 – August 8. the Victorian commissioner for corporate affairs, Gordon Lewis, reads the riot act: the 11 Victoria-based VFL clubs had the same responsibility as any other trading entity—they had to be solvent. (The Phoenix Rises pg 64)
  • 1986 – August 11. SANFL Directors unanimously vote against joining the VFL in 1987, citing a need for rationalisation of the Victorian clubs, and saying that the financial equation didnt work after being required to pay a 4 million license fee by the VFL.
 

Roylion

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Given my comment had a context, i.e competing at the top level, but you are unable/unwilling to grasp this basic fact, you aren't fair dinkum.
And all I am saying is there is a significant difference between Subiaco's and Fitzroy's experience.

WA & SA fans made a significant commitment to the national comp,
I'm well aware of how the national competition was put together and what contribution WA and SA fans made. The WAFL was a state competition before the advent of the national competition and it remains a state competition with the addition of one club since that occurrence.
 
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You seem to talk about about Essendon a fair bit.



And once again.

There's a significant difference between Subiaco's and Fitzroy's experience
is what I am saying. Subiaco continues in the same competition against the same traditional rivals. All Subiaco's WAFL club records, such as their thirteen premierships continue. When Subiaco next wins a premiership as part of the same competition they've been in since 1901, that will be their fourteenth WAFL premiership. Fitzroy will never play their traditional rivals Collingwood or Carlton again and their hundred year old VFL/AFL records are finished. They will never have a Brownlow Medallist, never play on the MCG again, never be able to add to their eight VFL-AFL premierships.
You seem to take it as an insult whenever anyone dare suggest that Fitzroy may not have been the only team to have in some way suffered greviously at the hands of administrators. HPKS's analogy is accurate.
 

madmug

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You seem to take it as an insult whenever anyone dare suggest that Fitzroy may not have been the only team to have in some way suffered greviously at the hands of administrators. HPKS's analogy is accurate.
Its because of the view that many have on BF. The view from the front row at the 'G'. They grew up with it & are blinded from football reality outside their immediate environment, because of it.

AR outside the of the geographic area of Port Philip Bay, except for recruiting purposes, mean't nothing to such folk. Certainly prior to the AFL taking centre stage in 'our' game.

AR ignorance is a sad affliction, but all too prominent on BF.
 

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Roylion

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You seem to take it as an insult whenever anyone dare suggest that Fitzroy may not have been the only team to have in some way suffered greviously at the hands of administrators.
Which is something I've never said.

What I have said is that there's a significant difference between Subiaco's and Fitzroy's experience.
 

Freomaniac

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Seriously everytime I see Gold Coast or gws play they inflate the crowd numbers

It’s been a disaster exsoansion ...besides ex pats from footy playing states there zero interest in the game

Empty orange seats don’t tell lies ....maybe you need to do a Gabba ....have multi coloured seats to make it look like there’s a a crowd ...lbetter still ...sell blow up doles that you can sit next to in the crowd

Expansion into gws and Gold Coast was a joke ...poorly planned ....

No one cares about footy there
Short term the expansion was a disaster, long term it will eventually come good. Oh and Tradition hs to Start somewhere doesn't it? 50 years from now, your argument is irrelevant.
Gws and Gold Coast are mistakes

In five years no one will want to play in front of 5,000 people

I believe they inflate crowd numbers too ....I saw one figure if 15,000 at a giants game and thought YEAH NAH ....THERE WAS empty seats everywhere

We didn’t need 18 teams .....Gold Coast will be a basket case in three years when everyone has left

The issue I see is the two teams have no footy culture ...you can’t develope that.
Again, Tradition has to start somewhere. Freo wee struggling to get crowds of over 15,000 back in the 1990s, they made finals in 2003 and have averaged more than 30,000 ever since.
Lucky neither ckub actually plays in front of 5k then.
If you choose to believe your fantasy with no data, over published data, you can. Just dont expect to be taken seriously.
Your team GWS and Gold coast are long term projects.

both teams are 20-30 year projects.

I remember when Brisbane and Sydney struggled to get crowds of 10,000 back in 1992-3. In 1996, both teams were in the top 4 and were getting 20,000 people at home on average.
 
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I remember when Brisbane and Sydney struggled to get crowds of 10,000 back in 1992-3. In 1996, both teams were in the top 4 and were getting 20,000 people at home on average.
The issue is Sydney have been there for 35 years or so and how important have they really become in Sydney? The SCG constantly has green empty seats everywhere and even against good sides it will never sell out. And don't say the GWS Giants cannibalised their support because it's not like it's even really gone down. There is no issue in having a couple of teams in non-footy states but 16 was a perfect number, and token presence in Brisbane and Sydney was all you needed.

There is also the idea that sport will become less important with crowds stagnating/going down even as populations boom. Melbourne and Sydney have gone crazy in the last 15 years and have those leagues and clubs really benefited? TV money has kept it going but there's no way in 30 years we'll be seeing GWS ring in 20,000 every week or the Suns selling out a home game.

The game just isn't ingrained there and the timing was wrong.

Soccer is massive in the UK and yet it's a secondary, maybe even third sport in Ireland while there's pockets of England and Wales that are absolutely rugby dominated.

Like life, you can mostly succeed when you be yourself.
 

General Giant

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The issue is Sydney have been there for 35 years or so and how important have they really become in Sydney? The SCG constantly has green empty seats everywhere and even against good sides it will never sell out. And don't say the GWS Giants cannibalised their support because it's not like it's even really gone down. There is no issue in having a couple of teams in non-footy states but 16 was a perfect number, and token presence in Brisbane and Sydney was all you needed.
You really dont know much other than what you get on the tv angles do you?

There is also the idea that sport will become less important with crowds stagnating/going down even as populations boom. Melbourne and Sydney have gone crazy in the last 15 years and have those leagues and clubs really benefited? TV money has kept it going but there's no way in 30 years we'll be seeing GWS ring in 20,000 every week or the Suns selling out a home game.
You know this how?

The game just isn't ingrained there and the timing was wrong.
Garbage

Soccer is massive in the UK and yet it's a secondary, maybe even third sport in Ireland while there's pockets of England and Wales that are absolutely rugby dominated.
Totally different situations.

Like life, you can mostly succeed when you be yourself.
Random and a useless statement.

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Freomaniac

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The issue is Sydney have been there for 35 years or so and how important have they really become in Sydney? The SCG constantly has green empty seats everywhere and even against good sides it will never sell out. And don't say the GWS Giants cannibalised their support because it's not like it's even really gone down. There is no issue in having a couple of teams in non-footy states but 16 was a perfect number, and token presence in Brisbane and Sydney was all you needed.

There is also the idea that sport will become less important with crowds stagnating/going down even as populations boom. Melbourne and Sydney have gone crazy in the last 15 years and have those leagues and clubs really benefited? TV money has kept it going but there's no way in 30 years we'll be seeing GWS ring in 20,000 every week or the Suns selling out a home game.

The game just isn't ingrained there and the timing was wrong.

Soccer is massive in the UK and yet it's a secondary, maybe even third sport in Ireland while there's pockets of England and Wales that are absolutely rugby dominated.

Like life, you can mostly succeed when you be yourself.
again, you have to start tradition some where. people say that we should have a Tasmanian side in he afl. there was ne other state that was Neglected in the early 1990s and that state is a rugby league and rugby union area. That is ACT.
 

Isaac Cumming No 1

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Short term the expansion was a disaster, long term it will eventually come good. Oh and Tradition hs to Start somewhere doesn't it? 50 years from now, your argument is irrelevant.
Again, Tradition has to start somewhere. Freo wee struggling to get crowds of over 15,000 back in the 1990s, they made finals in 2003 and have averaged more than 30,000 ever since.
Your team GWS and Gold coast are long term projects.

both teams are 20-30 year projects.

I remember when Brisbane and Sydney struggled to get crowds of 10,000 back in 1992-3. In 1996, both teams were in the top 4 and were getting 20,000 people at home on average.
I get all that. I also get that a crowd of 14.5k as Spotless for the SF was very disappointing. It was actually less than our H/A game against the Eagles. Says something about the impact of promo tkts probably. Premium seating at Spotless for H/A is $65 and the SF $90 it's not a huge difference.

There is definitely work to be done. But bullshit about how a mate's dog groomer went there and there was 50 people at the ground are really not helping.
 

Freomaniac

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You really dont know much other than what you get on the tv angles do you?
You know this how?

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Ignore that poster, He is even disliked by fellow freo supporters. Don't waste your time using Tough Man Tony Abbott tactics on that poster.:thumbsu:

I have seen your teams crowds grown. From averaging 5-6,000 in 2012 to around 10,000 in 2018.

The crowds have grown slowly partly due to some Band wagoners joining with your finals success in 2016 and 2017 and some Natural organic growth. Even if your crowds grow by 500 every year, its still growth.
 

General Giant

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Ignore that poster, He is even disliked by fellow freo supporters. Don't waste your time using Tough Man Tony Abbott tactics on that poster.:thumbsu:

I have seen your teams crowds grown. From averaging 5-6,000 in 2012 to around 10,000 in 2018.

The crowds have grown slowly partly due to some Band wagoners joining with your finals success in 2016 and 2017 and some Natural organic growth. Even if your crowds grow by 500 every year, its still growth.
Not just the raw numbers mate.

In the beginning we were severely outnumbered at every home game.

Much more orange make up the crowds these days.

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Freomaniac

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I get all that. I also get that a crowd of 14.5k as Spotless for the SF was very disappointing. It was actually less than our H/A game against the Eagles. Says something about the impact of promo tkts probably. Premium seating at Spotless for H/A is $65 and the SF $90 it's not a huge difference.

There is definitely work to be done. But bullshit about how a mate's dog groomer went there and there was 50 people at the ground are really not helping.
Its still a dog act that finals tickets get more expensive but that's the AFL.

That Prelim you had vs the dogs in 2016 was one of the rare times where GWS had a near sold out crowd. A good site to see.
 

JoondalupJ

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You don't play the village idiot role very well, alternatively ....
The sensible way to have set up a National competition should have been with a WA, SA , Vic , NT , QLD , NSW, Tas, ACT perhaps.

That would be only 8 teams the feeders would be from the VFL the SANFL, the WAFL , Tamanian clubs, NT , the locals well, we know what they can do.

QLD and NSW and any clubs in non Australian rules states would have to be given some access to the football states to recruit Australian Rules players to makeup for the numbers.

It would be an elite of the elite comps.

Where as now we have a diluted pool at the AFL top level, and there are low low sides, who may never be competitive or take 20 years to even get a shot at a flag,. Then we have 6 to 8 topline clubs who are always in the mix.

But I think we have gone too far down the path of the 18 and we will have to keep at it now , but we have diluted the competition.

I suppose that running the state sides might be different, but what we got , is what we got, some one needs to get our game back to normal without free kicks getting half the scores, and frees no one can follow , congestion and every one on the ball.

And another point with every one on the ball these days, it seems to me the spearheads the big time fullforwards the sharp shooters have gone and goals that aren't from free kicks are bloody well opportunist snaps , from side way or hook kicks, the real straight genuine goal kicker is disappearing.

My so and I were discussing this ion the phone the other day, and he said if you have opportunist goal snapping then you may as well forget fullforwards which would be horrible, and why?????????

Well all you have then is stikers, like in soccer, no real goal kickers, how is that Aussie football? May as well watch soccer if that's going to be the case!

And I am not a fan of that game , I watch the highlights of soccer because the goals when they happen are amazing , but the rest is backwards forwards sideways down, and boring as batshit.
 
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Ignore that poster, He is even disliked by fellow freo supporters. Don't waste your time using Tough Man Tony Abbott tactics on that poster.:thumbsu:

I have seen your teams crowds grown. From averaging 5-6,000 in 2012 to around 10,000 in 2018.

The crowds have grown slowly partly due to some Band wagoners joining with your finals success in 2016 and 2017 and some Natural organic growth. Even if your crowds grow by 500 every year, its still growth.
You're spelling and grammar is up to shit, don't go hanging it on me because I'm disliked by maybe the softest, nuffiest supporter group on this website.
 

Freomaniac

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Not just the raw numbers mate.

In the beginning we were severely outnumbered at every home game.

Much more orange make up the crowds these days.

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I care about the bottom line and what happens 20-30 years down the track. Sydney Swans are a good example of a big difference between what happens when a team is good and when it struggles.

Swans from 1982-5 was getting between 7-15,000 people a game at the SCG. They face a struggler like the saints or Fitzroy, they got 7-8,000. They get a team like the Magpies, Blues or Essendon they get anything between 12-15,000. This was a period where it was a 12 team comp, 6 games were all played at the same time. If Swans had a home game at the SCG, they have a Sunday arvo game while everyone played Saturday.

Then Came that 1986-7 seasons when they made finals, not surprisingly they were getting crowds of 15-20,000.

Then they dropped off after that. Then you had that 1992-4 period where the swans got 3 wins in 1992, 1 in 1993 and 4 wins in 1994. 8 wins in 3 years. Crowds drop to 6-9,000 a game.

Then at the end of 1994, Swans recruited Tony Lockett and Paul Roos and the team improved so did the crowds. Then the swans made the grand final in 1996 and their crowds rose back up to 20-25,000 again. 10 years later, they played in 2 grand finals in which they won the 2005 flag.

Now you see that the swans have changed a bit from 1982-2006. A lot can happen in 25 years.

I am not so sure about the Queensland clubs. but if you look at GWS, They can do similar things in what the swans are doing now.
 

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To me the answer is to shift or get rid of two Melbourne clubs like St Kilda and North Melbourne but the Melbourne centric AFL/VFL will never do that while they have the TV money propping up Victorian clubs.

The other option is to bring a Tassie team and one other (Nth QLD,Canberra?) and have two conferences of 10 teams playing each other twice with a final of 8 or 10 clubs made up of the top 4 or 5 teams from each group.
 

General Giant

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I care about the bottom line and what happens 20-30 years down the track. Sydney Swans are a good example of a big difference between what happens when a team is good and when it struggles.

Swans from 1982-5 was getting between 7-15,000 people a game at the SCG. They face a struggler like the saints or Fitzroy, they got 7-8,000. They get a team like the Magpies, Blues or Essendon they get anything between 12-15,000. This was a period where it was a 12 team comp, 6 games were all played at the same time. If Swans had a home game at the SCG, they have a Sunday arvo game while everyone played Saturday.

Then Came that 1986-7 seasons when they made finals, not surprisingly they were getting crowds of 15-20,000.

Then they dropped off after that. Then you had that 1992-4 period where the swans got 3 wins in 1992, 1 in 1993 and 4 wins in 1994. 8 wins in 3 years. Crowds drop to 6-9,000 a game.

Then at the end of 1994, Swans recruited Tony Lockett and Paul Roos and the team improved so did the crowds. Then the swans made the grand final in 1996 and their crowds rose back up to 20-25,000 again. 10 years later, they played in 2 grand finals in which they won the 2005 flag.

Now you see that the swans have changed a bit from 1982-2006. A lot can happen in 25 years.

I am not so sure about the Queensland clubs. but if you look at GWS, They can do similar things in what the swans are doing now.
Just have to go to any footy park in Western Sydney to see the change.

Kids all in Giants gear while parents in their victorian club allegiance. Which is great.
No pillaging support but growing our own...

AFL always said it was generational and the evidence supports it.

Freo was similar yeah? Very different situations and support by the AFL but it took a while for fans to join in mass like they are now?

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