Would footy be better without national expansion?

madmug

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No big deal at all. In fact theres a thread in the Giants board that answers that particular question.
https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?ur...hare_tid=1165235&share_fid=23893&share_type=t


Mine? Couldnt give a stuff about the game until the Giants came along. Grew up in an area that hated the sport in the 80s.

Wasnt till I started keeping an eye on the Giants that it all changed.

You really have no clue about the sport outside your bubble as your posts suggest.


Do you think all expansion clubs supporters just switched clubs?

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I certainly have my issues with the AFL expansion as its affected footy here in Tassie. However, the game was inevitably going to become professional & develop into a national league. It is what it is. But it could be better.

The one thing we do see is the bubble many Vic supporters seem to live in. A sad level of ignorance & arrogance is all too obvious with some. How quickly they forget the mess the state leagues were in before this more professional era developed. Rattling tins if I remember. They also forget, are too distanced from, or just dont care about the mess regional & rural football is in right now.

One should read Martin Flanagan's article in last weekends age newspaper. A sad read on Vic country & Tas footy.
 

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i agree it was dumb to start a afl comp straight from the vfl and include vfl records into the national league, they should have named the comp as the afl in 1987, and have the vfa change their name to vfl (instead of changing from vfa to vfl in 1995), and then it wouldve looked better, similliar to the N.R.L in a way, and the 100 year anniversary of the afl in 1996 made no sense, it shouldve been victorian football league/association 140th birthday (1858) in which all states wouldve celebrated, and in 2036 wouldve been the true 50 year anniversary of afl, with records and stats from the afl only since 1986 without the vfl records, as in, geelong's high score of 239 is a afl record, and fitzroys 238 was still a vfl record until whoever in the vfl breaks that record in the vfl only
 

madmug

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i agree it was dumb to start a afl comp straight from the vfl and include vfl records into the national league, they should have named the comp as the afl in 1987, and have the vfa change their name to vfl (instead of changing from vfa to vfl in 1995), and then it wouldve looked better, similliar to the N.R.L in a way, and the 100 year anniversary of the afl in 1996 made no sense, it shouldve been victorian football league/association 140th birthday (1858) in which all states wouldve celebrated, and in 2036 wouldve been the true 50 year anniversary of afl, with records and stats from the afl only since 1986 without the vfl records, as in, geelong's high score of 239 is a afl record, and fitzroys 238 was still a vfl record until whoever in the vfl breaks that record in the vfl only
Geez you've started with a bang. :)
 

Kwality

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i agree it was dumb to start a afl comp straight from the vfl and include vfl records into the national league, they should have named the comp as the afl in 1987, and have the vfa change their name to vfl (instead of changing from vfa to vfl in 1995), and then it wouldve looked better, similliar to the N.R.L in a way, and the 100 year anniversary of the afl in 1996 made no sense, it shouldve been victorian football league/association 140th birthday (1858) in which all states wouldve celebrated, and in 2036 wouldve been the true 50 year anniversary of afl, with records and stats from the afl only since 1986 without the vfl records, as in, geelong's high score of 239 is a afl record, and fitzroys 238 was still a vfl record until whoever in the vfl breaks that record in the vfl only
Origin would be king as it was in its firat 10 years, the place where only the best play.
 

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Kwality

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:'(
number of teams not going to go backwards
number of rounds may go backwards, if more teams x less rounds = about the same number of games in total ~200 + finals
Sadly you are spot on. Too many teams, too many plodders, not enough elite footballers now, & we'll get even more plodders.
 

telsor

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number of teams not going to go backwards
number of rounds may go backwards, if more teams x less rounds = about the same number of games in total ~200 + finals
For good or ill, I agree, sooner or later they'll add more teams, so as a end target...

23 teams.
22 matches over 23 rounds, so you play all teams once (11H, 11A, swapping each year), and every week one team has a bye.


Only other realistic option would be to split into divisions/conferences (again, this would probably be after adding more teams, although it would be more flexible as to the final number).
 
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Kwality

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yeah, I agree, the N.R.L looks really good, keeping the state of origin, pretty much A.F.L is all about money and rule changing than caring about history of the league and tradition
Origin is keeping the NRL line ball with AFL in media deals - not sure they've lead the AFL in any other field.
 

NoobPie

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Origin is keeping the NRL line ball with AFL in media deals - not sure they've lead the AFL in any other field.
Origin is keeping the NRL at around 85% of the AFL in terms of media deals

Apart from merchandise (relatively low value and the data is elusive but anecdotally the NRL would be ball park) I would suggest the AFL would get over double in sponsorship / corporate / membership and attendance revenues
 

Kwality

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NoobPie

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NZ?
http://www.sportspromedia.com/news/sky_nz_extends_rugby_league_deals

Forgot? Didnt know? Chose to ignore (Capital cities rating numbers)?
Wow, calm down dude I just did a quick google search!

Throw in NZ and you're perhaps nudging 90%

But are you able to show me a link to what telstra pays for the naming rights and what it pays for the digital rights? I suspect that the NRL's $1.8B deal includes Telstra's NRL naming rights sponsorship given both the digital and naming rights were reported at the same time

In terms of the capital city ratings, the tv rights value incorporates that information too....i.e where and how people are watching it
 

JoondalupJ

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i agree it was dumb to start a afl comp straight from the vfl and include vfl records into the national league, they should have named the comp as the afl in 1987, and have the vfa change their name to vfl (instead of changing from vfa to vfl in 1995), and then it wouldve looked better, similliar to the N.R.L in a way, and the 100 year anniversary of the afl in 1996 made no sense, it shouldve been victorian football league/association 140th birthday (1858) in which all states wouldve celebrated, and in 2036 would've been the true 50 year anniversary of afl, with records and stats from the afl only since 1986 without the vfl records, as in, geelong's high score of 239 is a afl record, and fitzroys 238 was still a vfl record until whoever in the vfl breaks that record in the vfl only
I sort of think that the VFL was already a national competition, just not in name. Lot of advertising and promoters and financial support was around and naming things made a lot of difference in some cIrcumstances I'd say.
I understand the SANFL and the WAFL ,TFL etc, were all very important to the local states , but the VFL was important all over the county, some SA and WA people may get annoyed with that but the fact is there, and there is no way to change the fact that people from all over the nation platyed in one of the 12 VFL clubs , it is more than sport in Victoria it is a tribal love /hate thing, and you can converse 9 out of 10 times sitting on a tram with someone who will have a fully informed opinion on something about Australian Football. I've said it before come down from Vic country like I did many decades ago to primary school in Melbourne, Aas soon as you walked in the gate it was" hey you, who do ya barrack for" fact of life in Melbourne and Victoria.
To the original heading though expansion was always coming, but we have definitely without a doubt gone a bridge too far with GC17 and GWS, no personal offence meant to the two clubs, but without a doubt those two have weakened the competition and diluted the pool of players and it not only effects the newbies but the whole comp indirectly. 16 clubs as I've said before was almost too many, but we had a pretty good comp , I personally believe that rule changes were brought in to accommodate some players who normally would not get a game in the 16 teams, that weakness of talent has spread across the whole 18 teams now, and some times you can see it sticking out like a sore thumb.
Not every week , but playing this game at the highest level is one of the hardest things to do and do consistently in any sport on this earth.

So we have 2 too many teams , maybe one day they may have to do something drastic , and many people are following soccer , my old Aussie rules looks a bit tame and different these days. But thats due partially to the politically correct nonsense we get in footy now, if they eventually take the contact out then we lose the game altogether. Shirt fronts great, heavy bumping brilliant , hard hard laying of tackles wonderful, tough hard real characters of footy marvelous. Its nearly all gone , I am not a knuckle sandwich person I don't believe in snipers, but pay back is fine, we've anesthetized the game so much now that AFLX might be the next thing, and that is worse than World War Three, hopefully IT NEVER HAPPENS!
 

General Giant

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To the original heading though expansion was always coming, but we have definitely without a doubt gone a bridge too far with GC17 and GWS, no personal offence meant to the two clubs, but without a doubt those two have weakened the competition and diluted the pool of players and it not only effects the newbies but the whole comp indirectly. 16 clubs as I've said before was almost too many, but we had a pretty good comp !
The grassroots growth stemming from that expansion will bring the talent back up though.

People always say theres not enough talent once theres new teams.

In 20 years when theres 2 more teams the comments will be the same and people will say it should stay at 18.

Theres always shit teams and I would say the shit teams at the moment aren't as bad as some shockers in the past.


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JoondalupJ

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The grassroots growth stemming from that expansion will bring the talent back up though.

People always say theres not enough talent once theres new teams.

In 20 years when theres 2 more teams the comments will be the same and people will say it should stay at 18.

Theres always shit teams and I would say the shit teams at the moment aren't as bad as some shockers in the past.


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Could be totally correct. I don't think that we will go any less than 18 now. They are here and they will stay. But I do think still along the lines of population and a game like our true Australian rules, and how you keep that gutsy skilful brave top of the order footballers in numbers , I really see some dilution.
But I will say probably that this expansion will be the last one. Or it should be , because two more and the hardest game foot on field in the world to play , will at top level just get worse and more fiddled with and changed until we don't recognise it.
So for me 18 NO MORE FOR AT LEAST 20 YEARS. Maybe forever.

I would add , you may have an opinion General, but AFLW , when kids started to grow and girls began to turn into young women and the boys and girls game was getting impossible because the boys were getting very big, that the AFL took on a competition so women as teenagers and young women could play at their top level, the game that women actually adore , we know, to watch but to play as well.
That is so you know I'm not knocking the AFLW, they are tough players.
But my point on team numbers , I believe if they go on building and building to 10, 12 , 14, 16 ,18 senior clubs , the game will be mutilated by lack of talent and skill level.
No offence to the girls but the AFLW will never match the male game at elite level, it is physically impossible, and some games still low scoring and some girls can just, play the game, and are triers in the extreme, some of course are good footballers. But they have a few who make up numbers, and if they bleed the talent to fill up too many teams and it gets to a lower level in some games, no one will watch it, and it has a hard time getting huge viewing now.
I have heard people comment about the value of watching our male game over the last few years as getting boring and same old same old, if they are talking about 10 to 14 teams and more the AFLW will go down .
That is something I hope the AFL executives and their high pay packets have their minds focused on, in the Male game too. More than 18 teams is insane. .
 

General Giant

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Could be totally correct. I don't think that we will go any less than 18 now. They are here and they will stay. But I do think still along the lines of population and a game like our true Australian rules, and how you keep that gutsy skilful brave top of the order footballers in numbers , I really see some dilution.
But I will say probably that this expansion will be the last one. Or it should be , because two more and the hardest game foot on field in the world to play , will at top level just get worse and more fiddled with and changed until we don't recognise it.
So for me 18 NO MORE FOR AT LEAST 20 YEARS. Maybe forever.

I would add , you may have an opinion General, but AFLW , when kids started to grow and girls began to turn into young women and the boys and girls game was getting impossible because the boys were getting very big, that the AFL took on a competition so women as teenagers and young women could play at their top level, the game that women actually adore , we know, to watch but to play as well.
That is so you know I'm not knocking the AFLW, they are tough players.
But my point on team numbers , I believe if they go on building and building to 10, 12 , 14, 16 ,18 senior clubs , the game will be mutilated by lack of talent and skill level.
No offence to the girls but the AFLW will never match the male game at elite level, it is physically impossible, and some games still low scoring and some girls can just, play the game, and are triers in the extreme, some of course are good footballers. But they have a few who make up numbers, and if they bleed the talent to fill up too many teams and it gets to a lower level in some games, no one will watch it, and it has a hard time getting huge viewing now.
I have heard people comment about the value of watching our male game over the last few years as getting boring and same old same old, if they are talking about 10 to 14 teams and more the AFLW will go down .
That is something I hope the AFL executives and their high pay packets have their minds focused on, in the Male game too. More than 18 teams is insane. .
AFLW needs to slow down on the expansion.

There are a ton of new grassroots clubs for women around and will grow the talent pool but not for a while and not at the level needed to promote 4 or 6 or 8 new teams in a very short time.

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footyfan78

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there are no other teams worthy
One alternative is invite the 3 best clubs from WAFL and SANFL to join in 1986 and those leagues pay for licences to now be directly linked to the premier league. At same time two clubs from VFL in biggest financial strife are encouraged to have one relocate to Tasmania and the other to Queensland. So you end up with six extra clubs added to league and two re-located out of Victoria. The conditions of the licences from WAFL and SANFL is those leagues themselves pay it, not those local clubs. What they are paying for it to be able to have 3 traditional local clubs play in premier league every season with one club turned over each season in a relegation and promotion type system from WAFL and SANFL. This is conditional on the club in premier league only relegated if it is bottom 4 of premier league. So this keeps alive the local league having every club in it, a chance to compete in premier league. No West Coast Eagles entry, no Brisbane Bears and no Adelaide Crows. SANFL and WAFL would have to re-jig and add in an extra club or two locally to have 8 teams play in their state league each season.

1987 premier league re-titles itself AFL. Most likely Fitzroy re-locate to Queensland as Brisbane or Gold Coast Lions and someone like St.Kilda re-locate to Tasmania as Southern Saints. A lot of the finances for new licences is re- distributed to those regions to make it attractive plus loans to the 3 or 4 other VFL clubs in financial strife around this time such as Collingwood, Richmond and Melbourne.

Subiaco, East Fremantle, Perth, North Adelaide, Glenelg and Port Adelaide join the premier league with understanding if they finish bottom 4 of premier league they relegated back to local state league and premier of state league takes their place the following season. So clubs like Norwood, West Perth etc have every chance of making it in years to come and if they really strong no reason they cannot stay in premier league for decades. No national draft is brought in. What happens is each state leave their own state level draft where clubs from the state draft from within state. You probably provide concessions to Queensland, Tasmania and Sydney based clubs to have concessions and being able to have picks in those state league drafts after first round. The Queensland based club would have Northern Territory and Queensland essentially be it's own zone to draw players from.

Essentially we would have 18 clubs as we do now with salary cap and SANFL and WAFL hold 3 licences each to run 3 best local clubs in premier league each season.
 
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The_Wookie

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One alternative is invite the 3 best clubs from WAFL and SANFL to join in 1986 and those leagues pay for licences to now be directly linked to the premier league.
Its important to remember that neither the WAFL nor SANFL were interested in having their clubs join another league. Both clubs proposed composite teams to be entered - Adelaide Football Club was registed by the SANFL in 1981. You only need to see how the SANFL violently opposed Ports entry proposal in 1990 to know this would have ended up in the courts.

Further, the SANFL point blank refused to pay a license fee right up until 1990.
 

footyfan78

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Its important to remember that neither the WAFL nor SANFL were interested in having their clubs join another league. Both clubs proposed composite teams to be entered - Adelaide Football Club was registed by the SANFL in 1981. You only need to see how the SANFL violently opposed Ports entry proposal in 1990 to know this would have ended up in the courts.

Further, the SANFL point blank refused to pay a license fee right up until 1990.
yeah. I know what happened. This is more an alternative thought by all parties in hindsight.
The VFL would not have wanted 18 clubs, those leagues would not have wanted to pay licences. St.Kilda would not want to re-locate etc etc. What needed to happen was all parties involved be shaken up by a different thought patterns to work together. As a result of not doing that, we are where we are at.
I think this would have been a better outcome for virtually all except St.Kilda.
 
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