Would the Allies have been the strongest State of Origin team in the early 2000s?

GC2015

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I've chosen to go with 2001 as that was the year the Lions began their dynasty:

B: Marcus Ashcroft (QLD), Darryl White (NT), Xavier Clarke (NT)
HB: Lenny Hayes (NSW), Mal Michael (QLD), Peter Burgoyne (NT)
C: Jason Akermanis (QLD), Michael Voss (QLD), James Hird (ACT)
HF: Andrew McLeod (NT), Wayne Carey (NSW), Michael Long (NT)
F: Che Cockatoo-Collins (QLD), Alastair Lynch (TAS), Matthew Richardson (TAS)
Fol: Clark Keating (QLD), Nathan Buckley (NT), Shane Crawford (NSW)
Int: Nick Riewoldt (QLD), Darryn Cresswell (TAS), Shaun Burgoyne (NT), David Hale (QLD)

I've probably forgotten some players but you get the point. Would any other state have been able to beat the Allies team above in the 2000-2005 era?
 
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GC2015

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Yeah from the mid to late 90s it was pretty much acknowledged they’d be super-strong. Same old stuff though, even if there was SOO players wouldn’t play - much less for an artificial thing like the Allies.
It's interesting to note an explosion of high end talent from the northern states and territories of Australia in the mid to late 90s. A midfield of Voss (QLD), Buckley (NT), Hird (ACT), Akermanis (QLD) and Crawford (NSW) is quite possibly the strongest of starting five midfielders of all-time. We're literally talking about five Brownlow Medal winning midfielders in the same side and all in their physical peak! I don't know if any team in the history of the game can lay claim to that kind of midfield talent. Even an ultra talented player like Andrew McLeod misses selection for the starting five midfield positions IMO.

Would need the other teams for comparison wouldn't we?
The Big V would probably look something like this in 2001:

VICTORIA
B: Damien Hardwick (Ess), Dustin Fletcher (Ess), Joel Smith (Hawthorn)
HB: Brad Sholl (Gee), Ben Graham (Gee), Shannon Grant (NM)
C: Brent Harvey (NM), Brett Ratten (Car), Nigel Lappin (Bri)
HF: Leon Cameron (Ric), Scott Lucas (Ess), Andrew Hickmott (Car)
F: Nathan Brown (WB), Matthew Lloyd (Ess), Brad Johnson (WB)
Fol: Matthew Primus (PA), Jason Johnson (Ess), Chris Johnson (Bri)
Int: Shane O'Bree (Col), Nick Stevens (Car), Blake Caracella (Ess), Peter Everitt (StK)

After more thought, my 2001 Allies team would look like this:

ALLIES
B: Joel Bowden (Ric), Mal Michael (Bri), Jade Rawlings (Haw)
HB: Andrew McLeod (Ade), Darryl White (Bri), Marcus Ashcroft (Bri)
C: Jason Akermanis (Bri), Michael Voss (Bri), James Hird (Ess)
HF: Peter Burgoyne (PA), Matthew Richardson (Ric), Nick Davis (Col)
F: Che Cockatoo-Collins (PA), Alastair Lynch (Bri), Wayne Carey (NM)
Fol: Clark Keating (Bri), Nathan Buckley (Col), Shane Crawford (Haw)
Int: Michael Long (Ess), Paul Kelly (Syd), Lenny Hayes (StK), Nick Riewoldt (StK)

Which team wins?
 

Cadaver

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Went and did some hypothetical State of Origin sides in this thread: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/hypothetical-state-of-origin-sides-from-2000-2019.1193381/

Combined 2000-2005 Allies team from mine would be:

B: Darryl White (NT) -- Leo Barry (NSW) -- Ben Mathews (NSW)
HB: Joel Bowden (NT) -- Jade Rawlings (Tas) -- Andrew McLeod (NT)
C: Paul Williams (Tas) -- Michael Voss (QLD) -- Shane Crawford (NSW)
HF: Jason Akermanis (QLD) -- Nick Riewoldt (QLD) -- Peter Burgoyne (NT)
F: Alastair Lynch (Tas) -- Matthew Richardson (Tas) -- Russell Robertson (Melb)
Foll: Jamie Charman (QLD) -- Nathan Buckley (NT) -- James Hird (ACT)
Int: Greg Stafford (NSW), Lenny Hayes (NSW), Marcus Ashcroft (QLD), Nick Davis (NSW)
 

Linda Lovelace

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It seems a few are missing from your Vic team. Robert Harvey, Scott West, Kouta, Adem Yze (was elite circa 2000-2002) would definitely be replacing some of the players listed and I've probably missed a few.

Maybe you considered contemporaneous injuries, but the entire problem with the Allies was that everyone in the Allies pulled out with injuries, so in a hypothetical vs the Vics, you have to give the Vics a full strength side too.

With that said, that Allies side would've been unstoppable for any Vic team of the era. Just too much quality.
 

Sttew

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I've chosen to go with 2001 as that was the year the Lions began their dynasty:

B: Marcus Ashcroft (QLD), Darryl White (NT), Xavier Clarke (NT)
HB: Lenny Hayes (NSW), Mal Michael (QLD), Peter Burgoyne (NT)
C: Jason Akermanis (QLD), Michael Voss (QLD), James Hird (ACT)
HF: Andrew McLeod (NT), Wayne Carey (NSW), Michael Long (NT)
F: Che Cockatoo-Collins (QLD), Alastair Lynch (TAS), Matthew Richardson (TAS)
Fol: Clark Keating (QLD), Nathan Buckley (NT), Shane Crawford (NSW)
Int: Nick Riewoldt (QLD), Darryn Cresswell (TAS), Shaun Burgoyne (NT), David Hale (QLD)

I've probably forgotten some players but you get the point. Would any other state have been able to beat the Allies team above in the 2000-2005 era?
Probably, but the concept of an "Allies" team made up of anyone not from the big three Australian football states is/was so lame and artificial.

"Go the Allies!"
 

GC2015

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Probably, but the concept of an "Allies" team made up of anyone not from the big three Australian football states is/was so lame and artificial.

"Go the Allies!"
It's hard to feel state pride when you're not playing for an actual state or territory. A guy like Matthew Richardson would have felt an enormous amount of pride when he pulled on the green jumper of the Apple Isle in 1993 but it would have been an empty feeling for him playing for the Allies in 1996-1997. The reality of the situation is that a state like Tasmania simply isn't big enough to ever have a state team capable of consistently competing with the Vics, Croweaters or Sandgropers. Queensland and New South Wales have the population, they just aren't interested enough (yet). However, that's changing. You can see the overall quality of NSW and QLD players in the league these days is much better than it's ever been in the past and we know the northern academies are going to ensure that continues to improve. So maybe one day we'll see a push for a reintroduction of state matches which involves the five major states although most would probably say that's pie in the sky thinking.
 

JerryWexler

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I've chosen to go with 2001 as that was the year the Lions began their dynasty:

B: Marcus Ashcroft (QLD), Darryl White (NT), Xavier Clarke (NT)
HB: Lenny Hayes (NSW), Mal Michael (QLD), Peter Burgoyne (NT)
C: Jason Akermanis (QLD), Michael Voss (QLD), James Hird (ACT)
HF: Andrew McLeod (NT), Wayne Carey (NSW), Michael Long (NT)
F: Che Cockatoo-Collins (QLD), Alastair Lynch (TAS), Matthew Richardson (TAS)
Fol: Clark Keating (QLD), Nathan Buckley (NT), Shane Crawford (NSW)
Int: Nick Riewoldt (QLD), Darryn Cresswell (TAS), Shaun Burgoyne (NT), David Hale (QLD)

I've probably forgotten some players but you get the point. Would any other state have been able to beat the Allies team above in the 2000-2005 era?
Two of your players weren't Allies. Michael Voss was from Orbost in Victoria, and Jason Akermanis was from Mildura, also Victoria.
 

Howard Littlejohn

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It's interesting to note an explosion of high end talent from the northern states and territories of Australia in the mid to late 90s. A midfield of Voss (QLD), Buckley (NT), Hird (ACT), Akermanis (QLD) and Crawford (NSW) is quite possibly the strongest of starting five midfielders of all-time. We're literally talking about five Brownlow Medal winning midfielders in the same side and all in their physical peak! I don't know if any team in the history of the game can lay claim to that kind of midfield talent. Even an ultra talented player like Andrew McLeod misses selection for the starting five midfield positions IMO.


The Big V would probably look something like this in 2001:

VICTORIA
B: Damien Hardwick (Ess), Dustin Fletcher (Ess), Joel Smith (Hawthorn)
HB: Brad Sholl (Gee), Ben Graham (Gee), Shannon Grant (NM)
C: Brent Harvey (NM), Brett Ratten (Car), Nigel Lappin (Bri)
HF: Leon Cameron (Ric), Scott Lucas (Ess), Andrew Hickmott (Car)
F: Nathan Brown (WB), Matthew Lloyd (Ess), Brad Johnson (WB)
Fol: Matthew Primus (PA), Jason Johnson (Ess), Chris Johnson (Bri)
Int: Shane O'Bree (Col), Nick Stevens (Car), Blake Caracella (Ess), Peter Everitt (StK)

After more thought, my 2001 Allies team would look like this:

ALLIES
B: Joel Bowden (Ric), Mal Michael (Bri), Jade Rawlings (Haw)
HB: Andrew McLeod (Ade), Darryl White (Bri), Marcus Ashcroft (Bri)
C: Jason Akermanis (Bri), Michael Voss (Bri), James Hird (Ess)
HF: Peter Burgoyne (PA), Matthew Richardson (Ric), Nick Davis (Col)
F: Che Cockatoo-Collins (PA), Alastair Lynch (Bri), Wayne Carey (NM)
Fol: Clark Keating (Bri), Nathan Buckley (Col), Shane Crawford (Haw)
Int: Michael Long (Ess), Paul Kelly (Syd), Lenny Hayes (StK), Nick Riewoldt (StK)

Which team wins?
leaving aside any misplaced players - Victoria, if only because their players may have given at least half a fu**.
 

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Howard Littlejohn

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Nope - Voss moved to Qld at age 11 and Aker when aged just 9. Therefore, under SOO rules, they both qualified for Qld and/or Allies.
Looking it up, both did indeed play for Allies under Queensland eligibility. Voss also played for Queensland (well Queensland/Northern Territory, itself an abomination almost as big as "Allies" or "All-Stars").
I wasn't sure if Voss would have counted as Vic or Qld as I couldn't remember the detail of the later rules.
 

JerryWexler

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Nope - Voss moved to Qld at age 11 and Aker when aged just 9. Therefore, under SOO rules, they both qualified for Qld and/or Allies.
Collingwood logic. State of Origin means where you come from, these guys were from Victoria. They played for Queensland because they were there and otherwise it wouldn't have been competitive. I can remember Roger Merrett playing for Queensland, and he was from Kaniva, in country Victoria.
 

JerryWexler

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It's hard to feel state pride when you're not playing for an actual state or territory. A guy like Matthew Richardson would have felt an enormous amount of pride when he pulled on the green jumper of the Apple Isle in 1993 but it would have been an empty feeling for him playing for the Allies in 1996-1997. The reality of the situation is that a state like Tasmania simply isn't big enough to ever have a state team capable of consistently competing with the Vics, Croweaters or Sandgropers. Queensland and New South Wales have the population, they just aren't interested enough (yet). However, that's changing. You can see the overall quality of NSW and QLD players in the league these days is much better than it's ever been in the past and we know the northern academies are going to ensure that continues to improve. So maybe one day we'll see a push for a reintroduction of state matches which involves the five major states although most would probably say that's pie in the sky thinking.
That sounds very script. Was that rehearsed?.
 

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Collingwood logic. State of Origin means where you come from, these guys were from Victoria. They played for Queensland because they were there and otherwise it wouldn't have been competitive. I can remember Roger Merrett playing for Queensland, and he was from Kaniva, in country Victoria.

Not really.

Rugby league - before a lot of technicalities started to muddy the waters - had it right. Where you play your first senior footy, with the line drawn from memory at under 16 level. Because at the end of the day it’s sport and teams divided up by those criteria are representative of the state in that sport and how they’ve developed their players. And generally before player movement became so regular, players had been in those states well before under 16 level so they had a good affinity for the state itself.

Peter sterling is one of the biggest legends in nsw history. He was born I. Queensland - do you really think he had any allegiance to the northern state just because he was born there?
 

Howard Littlejohn

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Collingwood logic. State of Origin means where you come from, these guys were from Victoria. They played for Queensland because they were there and otherwise it wouldn't have been competitive. I can remember Roger Merrett playing for Queensland, and he was from Kaniva, in country Victoria.
The later rules, changed about 1993 or soemthing, stopped the two-state player.
After that point Merrett would not have ben allowed to play for Qld, or Dunstall for Victoria.

The later rules were one state, where you spent the majority of your formative years (in foot ball terms). That was deemed between ages 10-16 or something, the years where you develop as a player, play elie under age football, pick up your basic skills, etc. Prior to that players could play for their original state or the state they were living in; except Vic, SA, WA players could only play for one of those three; with the Big 3 able to trump a smaller state original (e.g. Victoria picking Tasmanian Pritchard on the same weekend Tasmania were playing).
 

GC2015

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The later rules, changed about 1993 or soemthing, stopped the two-state player.
After that point Merrett would not have ben allowed to play for Qld, or Dunstall for Victoria.

The later rules were one state, where you spent the majority of your formative years (in foot ball terms). That was deemed between ages 10-16 or something, the years where you develop as a player, play elie under age football, pick up your basic skills, etc. Prior to that players could play for their original state or the state they were living in; except Vic, SA, WA players could only play for one of those three; with the Big 3 able to trump a smaller state original (e.g. Victoria picking Tasmanian Pritchard on the same weekend Tasmania were playing).
Is it true that those rules were put in place to prevent Wayne Carey from playing more games for South Australia? From a Victorian perspective, you wouldn't be too concerned about Carey playing for NSW but if he was regularly lining up for SA in the mid-to-late 90s then that would be a huge problem for the Big V.
 

Howard Littlejohn

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Is it true that those rules were put in place to prevent Wayne Carey from playing more games for South Australia? From a Victorian perspective, you wouldn't be too concerned about Carey playing for NSW but if he was regularly lining up for SA in the mid-to-late 90s then that would be a huge problem for the Big V.
Obviously it won't ever be stated to be.
The timing suggests it may be the case, but it may also be that it was finally recognised how ridiculous it was that players could have two states of origin.
Even with Carey (NSW) and Buckley (NT) available for SA, Victoria would likely still have benefited more had the old rule been retained.
 

JerryWexler

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The later rules, changed about 1993 or soemthing, stopped the two-state player.
After that point Merrett would not have ben allowed to play for Qld, or Dunstall for Victoria.

The later rules were one state, where you spent the majority of your formative years (in foot ball terms). That was deemed between ages 10-16 or something, the years where you develop as a player, play elie under age football, pick up your basic skills, etc. Prior to that players could play for their original state or the state they were living in; except Vic, SA, WA players could only play for one of those three; with the Big 3 able to trump a smaller state original (e.g. Victoria picking Tasmanian Pritchard on the same weekend Tasmania were playing).
I understand the rulings, but I don't agree with them. Dunstall should never have played for Victoria. One of your own, Blight, should never have played for Victoria.
 

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Simon Black has to get a guernsey.

One of the most under-rated midfielders (with a Brownlow and Norm Smith in his kit bag).
 

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