Wrighty's Trading Smarts.

[cityslick1]

How can you say injury did not affect Freemans career it ended it, he had great pace good size for someone who was just drafted poor disposal but player,s who are going to be at the coalface often do.

Freeman was such an anomaly. His aerobic fitness was off the charts AND he had pace & a strong build. I remember seeing him half a lap ahead of Sidebottom in pre-season drills - and a full lap ahead of the rest of the team. Just kept going. He never really did much with the ball though, and the hamstring injury obv killed off any chance of a career. So sad.

On the other side of potential draft picks, you had a WA kid who was a bit chubby and prob ran an 8 min 2km, but had great hands and footy smarts... as well as great character. We decided to pass on him, twice. His name... Patrick Cripps

 

[ipswichpies]

Freeman was such an anomaly. His aerobic fitness was off the charts AND he had pace & a strong build. I remember seeing him half a lap ahead of Sidebottom in pre-season drills - and a full lap ahead of the rest of the team. Just kept going. He never really did much with the ball though, and the hamstring injury obv killed off any chance of a career. So sad.

On the other side of potential draft picks, you had a WA kid who was a bit chubby and prob ran an 8 min 2km, but had great hands and footy smarts... as well as great character. We decided to pass on him, twice. His name... Patrick Cripps

It has turned out to be a bad mistake I know but you take pick and hope for best. Freeman with time may have been able to polish his disposal but as you say bad hamstrings finished him and if not for those he may still be playing today.

 

[Markfs]

Gee, you're happy to throw some really arbitrary delineation about in this discussion. Hine definitely deserves credit for Cox signing. Hine attended those early USA draft combines. It's thanks to Hine's work with Cox that he chose Collingwood.

Mihocek was also recruited by Hine. He's the guy who calls out the names at the draft. He takes the credit/criticism for those calls. That other recruiters had also seen him is irrelevant. Same goes for just about every player drafted, and they'd had a few years to see Checkers at VFL level before he was drafted.

I dont argue with Hine's ability to be "persuasive". It's his ability to identlfy talented talls that is missing.

 

[Scodog10]

11th preliminary final this century.

2002
2003
2007
2009
2010
2011
2012
2018
2019
2022
2023

You can’t point to anyone in list management and recruiting and say they have done a bad job when the proof is there, especially when you factor in the evolution of the game. Yes, you can argue one flag - but gee whiz you have to get a lot right to be that close. It also happens to be that four of the greatest dynasties in AFL history have been up there at the same time.
The 2001-04 Lions
The 2007-11 Cats
The 2012-16 Hawks
The 2017-20 Tigers
During every one of those dynasties, I reckon there was a stage where they would have all been very scared of the Pies.

Really? My memory of that period was that they handled us.

 

[What is a cakewalk]

Really? My memory of that period was that they handled us.

Yeah the others are reasonablish claims but that one is hard to get over the line. Not sure we beat hawthorn between about 2012 and 2018? Maybe once in 16/17? I still think they're a bit of a bogey team for us.

 

[TheVillageIdiot7]

It has turned out to be a bad mistake I know but you take pick and hope for best. Freeman with time may have been able to polish his disposal but as you say bad hamstrings finished him and if not for those he may still be playing today.

It was not a mistake to draft him.
Correct me if i'm wrong, but he had never had any hamstring related issue ever.....up until he pinged it in our first practice game.

If you want to blame anything...blame the medical staff for the way he was treated.
Not the decision to draft him.

Everyone wants the next Pendlebury....but in reality, 100+ games and 5 years is a good result for the list in general.
We'll never know, but without the injuries, he may have given us that....which is a pass mark for mine.

 

[Ugene41]

11th preliminary final this century.

2002
2003
2007
2009
2010
2011
2012
2018
2019
2022
2023

You can’t point to anyone in list management and recruiting and say they have done a bad job when the proof is there, especially when you factor in the evolution of the game. Yes, you can argue one flag - but gee whiz you have to get a lot right to be that close. It also happens to be that four of the greatest dynasties in AFL history have been up there at the same time.
The 2001-04 Lions
The 2007-11 Cats
The 2012-16 Hawks
The 2017-20 Tigers
During every one of those dynasties, I reckon there was a stage where they would have all been very scared of the Pies.

Yea it's crazy to think the top 4 this year include Pies/Brisbane/Port which were the main sides we battled back in 2002/2003. Since then, Port and Brisbane have had long periods in the bottom 4 wilderness whilst we've consistently bounced back and managed to challenge every 3-4 years without ever really bottoming out for a long period of time.

Since 2002/2003, the one constant in the football department has been Hine (and Pendles!) who has managed to rebuild the list 3 times for 3 different coaches for 3 different periods of challenging for the flag.

He's not perfect nor would you say he's the best recruiter in the league but I think we should appreciate that we've got one that has consistently been top 4 and allowed us to stay competitive for so long whilst adapting to the evolving needs of the different coaches.

 

[Scud2]

Yeah the others are reasonablish claims but that one is hard to get over the line. Not sure we beat hawthorn between about 2012 and 2018? Maybe once in 16/17? I still think they're a bit of a bogey team for us.

2012 no one would have liked playing the pies.
From then on we plummeted pretty quickly for the middle Buckley years.

 

[Mollythedolly]

I dont argue with Hine's ability to be "persuasive". It's his ability to identlfy talented talls that is missing.

He’s had plenty of talented talls. Just that with more than a few their talents seem to be other than AFL.

Cox and Mihocek are among his wins. He identified them and did what was necessary to get them to the club (Cox - Cat B rookie process; Checkers - draft). Ditto Mark Keane. Sadly, he’s now with the Crows.

 

[Markfs]

He’s had plenty of talented talls. Just that with more than a few their talents seem to be other than AFL.

Cox and Mihocek are among his wins. He identified them and did what was necessary to get them to the club (Cox - Cat B rookie process; Checkers - draft). Ditto Mark Keane. Sadly, he’s now with the Crows.

yes he has identified talls in the "no cost" processes like cat b etc. I think he sees it as the way to get talls for nothing and it has it's had limited success.

he told cox that he would play at the most watched club in the league. If man utd offered you a place and your other option was luton town, where would you go. But I agree, Hine would make a delightful dinner host. He loves to appear in public.

As for Mihocek, if Hine knew something about talls, he would have recruited him years earlier. If you're so impressed with Mihocek's recruitment, you should be proposing that gary ayres gets a job....

Something from the days when he was playing for port....

Brody MIHOCEK 04-Feb-93 | 192.0cm | 97.0kg | Port Melbourne “Collingwood looked but passed on the former Tasmanian last year, but the Pies are apparently keen again. Port coach Gary Ayres believes his premiership defender is capable of the jump to the AFL, noting his marking ability and decision-making. Mihocek missed eight matches owing to a knee injury but had an excellent finals series – he was best-afield in the semi-final against Footscray and named third best in the grand final. ‘He’s as brave as anyone, and I reckon people underestimate how much of an attacking force he is,’ Port skipper Toby Pinwill said of the son of former Essendon player Jack Mihocek.” – VFL expert Paul Amy.

But Derek had no qualms about drafting sam dwyer a few years before that....for someone who was obviously slow and just a good footballer.

And let's finish it here. I can see you're a hine lover and enjoy your love. Stating opinions as if they're facts doesnt really cut it with me...

 

[Mollythedolly]

yes he has identified talls in the "no cost" processes like cat b etc. I think he sees it as the way to get talls for nothing and it has it's had limited success.

he told cox that he would play at the most watched club in the league. If man utd offered you a place and your other option was luton town, where would you go. But I agree, Hine would make a delightful dinner host. He loves to appear in public.

As for Mihocek, if Hine knew something about talls, he would have recruited him years earlier. If you're so impressed with Mihocek's recruitment, you should be proposing that gary ayres gets a job....

Something from the days when he was playing for port....

Brody MIHOCEK 04-Feb-93 | 192.0cm | 97.0kg | Port Melbourne “Collingwood looked but passed on the former Tasmanian last year, but the Pies are apparently keen again. Port coach Gary Ayres believes his premiership defender is capable of the jump to the AFL, noting his marking ability and decision-making. Mihocek missed eight matches owing to a knee injury but had an excellent finals series – he was best-afield in the semi-final against Footscray and named third best in the grand final. ‘He’s as brave as anyone, and I reckon people underestimate how much of an attacking force he is,’ Port skipper Toby Pinwill said of the son of former Essendon player Jack Mihocek.” – VFL expert Paul Amy.

But Derek had no qualms about drafting sam dwyer a few years before that....for someone who was obviously slow and just a good footballer.

And let's finish it here. I can see you're a hine lover and enjoy your love. Stating opinions as if they're facts doesnt really cut it with me...

LOL, Hine lover. I was merely alerting you to your errant call on Cox and Mihocek, but now it’s about me apparently.

The extract you’ve included even highlighted that Hine was interested in Checkers the year before ultimately drafting him.

I’ll leave it there.

 

[76woodenspooners]

Hine is overrated, apart from his early years, which none can complain he did amazingly, has declined since and now only seems to be able to pick work horse type of players, which you have mentioned.

Can you give examples of clubs’ draft hands that have gotten sustained better value than us over a period of time?

 

[Markfs]

Can you give examples of clubs’ draft hands that have gotten sustained better value than us over a period of time?

Yes, I'd like to know the examples of how our draft hands have been better value to the extent that Hine gets his fanboy status.....

 

[76woodenspooners]

Yes, I'd like to know the examples of how our draft hands have been better value to the extent that Hine gets his fanboy status.....

Sure, eether ither

 

[Scodog10]

2012 no one would have liked playing the pies.
From then on we plummeted pretty quickly for the middle Buckley years.

Except Hawthorn they got us by 22, 47 and 38 points. We couldn’t get near them throughout their run.

 

[Harry O]

No doubt Hine’s ability to talent ID talented tall players is the major weakness in his CV.
And it has got to the stage now where he almost refuses to draft any at all in the National Drsft , focusing on trades , free agents , rookies and Cat B’s to fill the hole

 

[Albert Parker]

No doubt Hine’s ability to talent ID talented tall players is the major weakness in his CV.
And it has got to the stage now where he almost refuses to draft any at all in the National Drsft , focusing on trades , free agents , rookies and Cat B’s to fill the hole

I think this is overplayed too.

He got Nathan Brown, Ben Reid, Brodie Grundy with top 20 selections.

We have also given away a few early picks for Treloar and Beams which limits his draft impact.

Fact is, we've been consistently one of the most competitive sides for the past decade.

I'd say Stephen Wells tops him for sustained recruitment list management with few top 10 picks.
Kinnear Beatson has had help from the academy - Blakey, Mills, Heeney...
Richmond had one short but very productive era in the past 20 years built off the back of Cotchin, Martin, Rance, Riewoldt and Lynch - all first round picks.

I'd say Hine has been fantastic and his hand has been curtailed in part by Eddie's influence in the Grundy contracts and Beams re-hire in more recent years.

 

[Markfs]

i'm happy to have Hine under the wing of Wright for the future. I think the years where Hine was both recruiting and list manager was a recipe for disaster. However, now i like that Hine now often refers to Wright as making overall list decisions and I think he knows his place. He has a lot of experience and he has made many good choices. No reason to move him on. I think the recent changes to the list indicates that Wright wants a greater emphasis on height and speed, and less emphasis on picking "good junior footballers" who might give short term limited success like Bianco and ben crocker

20

Ben Crocker

Age

27

Ht

188cm

Wt

84kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

9.5

2star

K

6.3

2star

HB

3.2

3star

M

3.7

4star

T

1.7

4star

G

0.8

4star

D

9.3

2star

K

7.5

3star

HB

1.8

1star

M

4.3

4star

T

1.5

2star

G

0.8

4star

D

9.0

3star

K

5.0

2star

HB

4.0

3star

M

2.8

3star

T

2.0

4star

G

1.0

4star

.

 

[Ugene41]

No doubt Hine’s ability to talent ID talented tall players is the major weakness in his CV.
And it has got to the stage now where he almost refuses to draft any at all in the National Drsft , focusing on trades , free agents , rookies and Cat B’s to fill the hole

I'm assuming by talented talls you mean KPF as Hine has done quite well with KPD in Reid, Brown, Langdon, Murphy etc over the years.

And agree with Albert that this is overplayed. If we look at the top 4 contenders and recent premiers, they've all acquired their KPF spearhead via trade/FA:

Brisbane - Daniher (traded)
Melbourne - Basketcase forward line but Ben Brown (traded)
Port - Dixon (traded)
Geelong - Cameron (traded/FA), Hawkins (FS)
Richmond - Lynch (FA)
West Coast - Kennedy (traded)

This is actually going to be the real test of "Wrighty's Trading Smarts". I hope he hasn't blown his load on McStay...

 

[Markfs]

I didnt know talls only play forward...

and Port is another good example of a team that hasnt been able to recruit talls and has relied on trading for the flakey finlayson and the loose goose aliir aliir

21

Aliir Aliir

Age

29

Ht

194cm

Wt

96kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

15.2

4star

K

9.3

4star

HB

5.9

4star

M

5.2

5star

T

1.9

4star

MG

240.9

4star

D

11.0

3star

K

6.0

2star

HB

5.0

3star

M

3.0

3star

T

2.0

3star

D

13.0

4star

K

6.4

3star

HB

6.6

4star

M

3.8

4star

T

2.0

4star

MG

158.4

3star

and bag of bones Lycett. The desperate pleas that another tradie Dixon gets up this week demonstrates just how skint they are for talls - if you want to call 188 jonas a tall or 191 mckenzie a tall. All their eggs in the midfield basket...we'll see how well that goes this week. No wonder they wanted brodie and anyone else over 190 over the trade period.

 

[Ugene41]

I didnt know talls only play forward...

and Port is another good example of a team that hasnt been able to recruit talls and has relied on trading for the flakey finlayson and the loose goose aliir aliir and bag of bones Lycett. The desperate pleas that another tradie Dixon gets up this week demonstrates just how skint they are for talls - if you want to call 188 jonas a tall or 191 mckenzie a tall. All their eggs in the midfield basket...we'll see how well that goes this week. No wonder they wanted brodie and anyone else over 190 over the trade period.

Yes agreed, Hine is a much better recruiter than whoever Port have.

 

[Markfs]

Yes agreed, Hine is a much better recruiter than whoever Port have.

I think he has better fanboys than the port recruiter too...

 

[Ugene41]

I think he has better fanboys than the port recruiter too...

Apart from dissing Hine, you haven't really given any reasons for this GW fanboi thread of yours.

I've shown that most of the premiership spearheads are acquired via trade/FA so I think the key measure of success for GW will be whether he can land us a marquee forward that we're crying out for. So far he's given us Kreuger and McStay which is not much better than the Jesse White/QLynch trade/FA combo we got under Hine as list manager.

Hill and Mitchell are great trades for role player needs but they're also quite common and easily done. Like how we previously traded for Howe, Varcoe, WHE etc.

I'll rate GW once he lands us that gun KPF that we've failed to do since A Rocca.

 

[Scodog10]

I think this is overplayed too.

He got Nathan Brown, Ben Reid, Brodie Grundy with top 20 selections.

We have also given away a few early picks for Treloar and Beams which limits his draft impact.

Fact is, we've been consistently one of the most competitive sides for the past decade.

I'd say Stephen Wells tops him for sustained recruitment list management with few top 10 picks.
Kinnear Beatson has had help from the academy - Blakey, Mills, Heeney...
Richmond had one short but very productive era in the past 20 years built off the back of Cotchin, Martin, Rance, Riewoldt and Lynch - all first round picks.

I'd say Hine has been fantastic and his hand has been curtailed in part by Eddie's influence in the Grundy contracts and Beams re-hire in more recent years.

Wells’ record with talls is just as poor. The only live draft talls they’ve selected that are of serious best 23 quality since Taylor in 07 are maybe Ratugalea and Kolodjashnij. Blicavs (cat B), Scarlett (FS), Hawkins (FS) and Cameron (FA) were either alternate pathways or free hits.

 

[Ugene41]

Wells’ record with talls is just as poor. The only live draft talls they’ve selected that are of serious best 23 quality since Taylor in 07 are maybe Ratugalea and Kolodjashnij. Blicavs (cat B), Scarlett (FS), Hawkins (FS) and Cameron (FA) were either alternate pathways or free hits.

Yea exactly. Tom Stewart was a big win though!

Our biggest failing isn't that we haven't been able to draft a gun KPF. They're extremely rare unless you consistently finish bottom 4 for years and even then there's no guarantees (look at Melbourne, GWS, Essendon, North)

Our biggest failing is never landing that big marquee forward via trade despite being linked to many over the years (Brown, Riewoldt, Lynch, Cameron etc.). Also despite being the biggest club and always competitive unlike Ess/Carlton.

Unless GW can do that, he'll just be another list manager that has failed to do that for us over the years. We've always been able to do astute trades for needs (Howe, Greenwood, Varcoe, WHE, Crisp, Dunn, Roughead etc) so he's providing nothing special there.