Politics Wuhan Coronavirus (COVID-19): The politics thread

[medusala]

It has fallen now, it's true, thanks to the lockdown and people claim lockdowns don't work. On the other hand another 100 dead in Sweden today and tracking just behind France now.

Lockdowns are hardly irrefutably a good idea. Far from it.

Have they stopped nursing home deaths? No
Have they stopped ill people in hospitals catching the virus? No
Have people died of heart attacks and strokes by not going to a&e? Yes
Will thousands die unnecessarily of cancer due to lack of recent screening and treatment? Yes.

Further super spreader events cause most cases, so stop a select and small group of activities and you have a massive reduction in cases.

In short there is very strong evidence that not only are strict lockdowns a waste of time but they are actually very harmful both for health and economic reasons. Why shut down book shops, clothes shops, stop people going to beach, fishing etc etc? Utter insanity.

‘Super-spreader’ events like gym classes, choir rehearsals and business conferences could be responsible for 80% of coronavirus cases, a new study claims.

Read more: https://metro.co.uk/2020/05/20/supe...le-80-coronavirus-cases-12729855/?ito=cbshare
Twitter: https://twitter.com/MetroUK | Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MetroUK/

 

[Total Power]

Lockdowns are hardly irrefutably a good idea. Far from it.

Have they stopped nursing home deaths? No
Have they stopped ill people in hospitals catching the virus? No
Have people died of heart attacks and strokes by not going to a&e? Yes
Will thousands die unnecessarily of cancer due to lack of recent screening and treatment? Yes.

Further super spreader events cause most cases, so stop a select and small group of activities and you have a massive reduction in cases.

In short there is very strong evidence that not only are strict lockdowns a waste of time but they are actually very harmful both for health and economic reasons. Why shut down book shops, clothes shops, stop people going to beach, fishing etc etc? Utter insanity.

‘Super-spreader’ events like gym classes, choir rehearsals and business conferences could be responsible for 80% of coronavirus cases, a new study claims.

Read more: https://metro.co.uk/2020/05/20/supe...le-80-coronavirus-cases-12729855/?ito=cbshare
Twitter: https://twitter.com/MetroUK | Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MetroUK/

So all these countries have now managed to lower the death rates by 80% to the peak, except Sweden. Why?

People are still going to die from heart attacks and cancer, lockdowns dont prevent that. The UK government have handled this situation very poorly. Look at Singapore, Norway, Denmark, Germany. S.Korea, Australia , Nz for example. Lockdowns didn't work there?

you are mistaking the sheer incompetence of the Trump and Johnson government with lockdowns. There wasnt enough testing and PPE up until a few weeks ago. Whom are you going to blame that on? Germany and South Korea on the other hand were testing close to 100k people a day in April.

 

[Total Power]

England Summary | Coronavirus (COVID-19) in the UK

Official Coronavirus (COVID-19) disease situation dashboard with latest data in the UK.

www.gov.uk

???

As of 5pm on 25 May, of those tested positive for coronavirus in the UK, 37,048 have died. This new figure includes deaths in all settings, not just in hospitals. The equivalent figure under the old measure would have been 29,965.

EXCESS deaths INCLUDING covid. Many of these care home and nursing home deaths have not been counted cause they died without tests. Vast majority of these excess deaths are covid.

UK's Covid-19 excess death toll rises to more than 60,000

Compared to the five-year average, 60,822 more people have died in the UK since the start of the Covid-19 pandemic

www.telegraph.co.uk

 

[medusala]

EXCESS deaths INCLUDING covid.

UK's Covid-19 excess death toll rises to more than 60,000

Compared to the five-year average, 60,822 more people have died in the UK since the start of the Covid-19 pandemic

www.telegraph.co.uk

Excess deaths and deaths due to Covid arent the same thing. Plenty of those excess deaths will be non covid related.

 

[Total Power]

Excess deaths and deaths due to Covid arent the same thing. Plenty of those excess deaths will be non covid related.

I disagree, UK was not reporting care/nursing home deaths till early May. All countries said half the reported deaths are in care homes. In England, they have seen 26k deaths in hospitals and apparently 3k deaths in care homes only. You believe that number?? look at the total number of care home deaths in the UK and then compare it with the official number.

 

[medusala]

I disagree, UK was not reporting care/nursing home deaths till early May. All countries said half the reported deaths are in care homes. In England, they have seen 26k deaths in hospitals and apparently 3k deaths in care homes only. You believe that number?? look at the total number of care home deaths in the UK and then compare it with the official number.

Possibly but the point is CV19 wont account for 100% of excess deaths.

Care home deaths officially over 10k now.

The govt hates this because they (ie NHS is largely responsible for this by clearing up beds in hospitals). Its the biggest scandal of this episode but you watch the inevitable enquiry clear the NHS of any wrongdoing. And the govt will just try and hide behind SAGE.

 

[Total Power]

Possibly but the point is CV19 wont account for 100% of excess deaths.

Care home deaths officially over 10k now.

The govt hates this because they (ie NHS is largely responsible for this by clearing up beds in hospitals). Its the biggest scandal of this episode but you watch the inevitable enquiry clear the NHS of any wrongdoing. And the govt will just try and hide behind SAGE.

Sure, i never suggested all the 60,000 deaths been C-19. But it's not 37,000 either. There is no way to test all those who have died, you can only judge by the symptoms.

Excess UK deaths in Covid-19 outbreak approach 60,000

Data shows Britain has one of world’s highest rates of coronavirus deaths per capita

www.theguardian.com

This indicates there have been more than 46,383 UK deaths registered where Covid-19 was mentioned on the death certificate. The ONS data includes suspected cases where there has been no positive test for coronavirus.

 

[medusala]

Sure, i never suggested all the 60,000 deaths been C-19. But it's not 37,000 either. There is no way to test all those who have died, you can only judge by the symptoms.

Thats why intl comparisons are very very misleading and newspapers are a disgrace for the way they produce tables. As for symptons heaps of people have died of heart attacks from blood clots, this has only just been started to be talked about in the press. I reckon heaps of those deaths particularly in homes have never been counted.

Plenting of the PCR tests give false results in any events.

 

[Total Power]

Thats why intl comparisons are very very misleading and newspapers are a disgrace for the way they produce tables. As for symptons heaps of people have died of heart attacks from blood clots, this has only just been started to be talked about in the press. I reckon heaps of those deaths particularly in homes have never been counted.

Plenting of the PCR tests give false results in any events.

All countries have underreported deaths, Italy by 19,000 approx, UK will be that region i would assume too. However all these countries have fallen 80% from the peak except.....you guessed it. Sweden had 95 deaths last night.

 

[Crankyhawk]

Were conditions for high death rates at Care Homes created on purpose?

Rosemary Frei During the COVID-19 pandemic, people in care homes have been dying in droves. Why is this happening? Is it simply because older adults are very vulnerable to SARS-CoV-2 and therefore …

off-guardian.org

A purpose is unnecessary when the pandemic of hysteria is sufficient to explain a sequence of disastrous decisions made with all the best intentions resulting in a surge of deaths in nursing homes. Our reflex inclination to trust authorities during a crisis and ignore asking questions is a deadly sentiment. The chorus calling for unity, the emotional intolerance of any dissent blinds us.

Collectively we genuflected before the assembled media darling experts: willfully and aggressively ignoring our commonsense doubts and disconnected from sanity. Rather than trying to resolve the numerous logical inconsistencies, we embraced the lockdown and bathed in platitudes of solidarity. We locked ourselves in our dungeons. Covid became the lions in the arena and we the sniveling Christians to be sent to slaughter.

How do we classify the survivors, desperately clutching to their rationalizations, trapped in the covid nightmare? - They are the undead.

Hindsight hero again

 

[Crankyhawk]

Thats why intl comparisons are very very misleading and newspapers are a disgrace for the way they produce tables. As for symptons heaps of people have died of heart attacks from blood clots, this has only just been started to be talked about in the press. I reckon heaps of those deaths particularly in homes have never been counted.

Plenting of the PCR tests give false results in any events.

Fwiw I think it is false negative results not false positives; whether a positive test reflects infectious virus may be an issue but the false negative from sampling issues is a much larger inaccuracy (I have seen 30% of true positive test negative)

 

[ABSOLUTE MADMAN]

Heartbreaking detail in 30yo’s virus death

Australia’s youngest coronavirus victim had only recently become engaged to his partner, with confusion reigning as to how the pandemic reached his home in the central Queensland town Blackwater.

www.news.com.au

Alright this seems like bullshit and likely a person that died with covid-19 rather than from covid-19.

Guy is confined to his house for months due to a medical issue (seizures) and then one day his partner returns home and he is dead. Nothing to indicate he had bad symptoms of the virus etc.

If this is going to be counted then it makes you question the actual death toll from Covid-19.

I believe that parts of the US are counting covid deaths with a definition of something like this: "Covid-19 positive at time of death"

I test positive to the virus. Drive home after the test. Get killed by a truck drive that swerved to miss a witch on the road. This would make me as a Covid-19 death under that definition.

EDIT: Reading somewhere that he had terminal cancer but a source was not given. If seizures and terminal cancer are his "complicated medical history" as the Queensland health official would say that makes the sensationalising of this death quite appalling really.

 

[yebiga]

There

Hindsight hero again

Ooooh there is a crack in the armor! - hey Total?
I suggested yesterday the hindsight gambit was your best bet to retain some dignity. Good on you.

 

[Total Power]

There

Ooooh there is a crack in the armor! - hey Total?
I suggested yesterday the hindsight gambit was your best bet to retain some dignity. Good on you.

You dont even know whom you quoting lmao! rough night yebbo? or too much yebiga?

Btw, off-guardian in action again. Awesome job, keep it up.

 

[Total Power]

You would have made a wonderful death camp commander

Says "just a flu" brigade. Don't worry, Brazil is following your advice.

 

[yebiga]

Japan May Have Beaten Coronavirus Without Lockdowns or Mass Testing. But How?

No restrictions were placed on residents’ movements, and businesses from restaurants to hairdressers stayed open

time.com

Good on them

 

[yebiga]

South Korea’s Health Minister on How His Country Is Beating Coronavirus Without a Lockdown

"We never considered a full lockdown," Park Neung-hoo tells TIME

time.com

Good on South Korea too. Who knew there were alternatives to a lockdown? Well actually, loads of experts and several countries had the courage not to become hysterical. While the developed western world collectively hid under the bed, other countries bravely faced the threat and defeated it like adults.

 

[Deliverance]

South Korea’s Health Minister on How His Country Is Beating Coronavirus Without a Lockdown

"We never considered a full lockdown," Park Neung-hoo tells TIME

time.com

Good on South Korea too. Who knew there were alternatives to a lockdown? Well actually, loads of experts and several countries had the courage not to become hysterical. While the developed western world collectively hid under the bed, other countries bravely faced the threat and defeated it like adults.

Yes, good on them, but

Most western countries populations simply don't have the maturity for that kind of approach. Could you imagine running things as normal and asking Aussies or yanks to avoid the Three C’s” — closed spaces, crowded spaces and close-contact settings? Sweden is the closest mindset to the Japanese in terms of a "social contract" and we know how it's going there.

 

[Total Power]

Yes, good on them, but

Most western countries populations simply don't have the maturity for that kind of approach. Could you imagine running things as normal and asking Aussies or yanks to avoid the Three C’s” — closed spaces, crowded spaces and close-contact settings? Sweden is the closest mindset to the Japanese in terms of a "social contract" and we know how it's going there.

Japan introduced contact tracing, compulsory masks and strict social distancing guidelines. Completely consistent with a bad flu season LOL

and yeah contact tracing and social distancing guidelines will work extremely well in the West. People start whinging when they have to download the app. apparently NWO is coming for them, let alone maintain distance from the person next to him.

 

[Mofra]

Yes, good on them, but

Most western countries populations simply don't have the maturity for that kind of approach. Could you imagine running things as normal and asking Aussies or yanks to avoid the Three C’s” — closed spaces, crowded spaces and close-contact settings? Sweden is the closest mindset to the Japanese in terms of a "social contract" and we know how it's going there.

From the article:

In addition, if we had delayed developing test kits by a month, without prior and proactive consultation and cooperation with the private sector, our current system based around quick, mass testing couldn’t have been established.

This is in stark contrast to the situation in many countries (especially the US and Brazil) who strangely would fit closer to the 'just the flu' mantra than South Korea.
Note South Korea also have universal healthcare, the absolute antithesis of "freedom" to US Republicans and half of the Democrats.

As my US friends tell me, "Americans don't like being told what to do. We want choice" so social factors are also at play.

 

[Mateyman]

From the article:

This is in stark contrast to the situation in many countries (especially the US and Brazil) who strangely would fit closer to the 'just the flu' mantra than South Korea.
Note South Korea also have universal healthcare, the absolute antithesis of "freedom" to US Republicans and half of the Democrats.

As my US friends tell me, "Americans don't like being told what to do. We want choice" so social factors are also at play.

Mass testing has alllowed countries such as South Korea to manage it. When things got bad in Western countries, they did not have a sophisticated testing apparatus in place, so couldn't use that to manage the virus. Just look at the UK which has suspended all contact tracing since March. Good luck managing the virus with mass testing if that is what you have for test and tracing capabilities.

 

[Crankyhawk]

There

Ooooh there is a crack in the armor! - hey Total?
I suggested yesterday the hindsight gambit was your best bet to retain some dignity. Good on you.

Well I already said that (the action by government was based on the information available then)
I also am favouring reopening except international travel.
I am calling you out as being a hindsight hero, spouting your s**t that “you knew better” blah blah.

 

[Crankyhawk]

South Korea’s Health Minister on How His Country Is Beating Coronavirus Without a Lockdown

"We never considered a full lockdown," Park Neung-hoo tells TIME

time.com

Good on South Korea too. Who knew there were alternatives to a lockdown? Well actually, loads of experts and several countries had the courage not to become hysterical. While the developed western world collectively hid under the bed, other countries bravely faced the threat and defeated it like adults.

They also had experience through the SARS in how to track, test and trace. We lacked test kits initially so needed to clamp down; now that kits are available and we have shown low rates of infections and death rate not as high as initially feared we should be opening up.
Hysterical headlines about “clusters” of overseas visitors who are isolating aren’t helpful (contrast cedar meats which was a community spread cluster)

 

[BG__]

Nuffies lately complaining about the PM earning half a mil a year while people are on jobkeeper is starting to really annoy me. Would have been a good look by him and parliament to all take a pay cut during all this though.

But he runs the country for * sake, if anything he is underpaid imo, lots of CEO's earn way more.

I don't earn much money, and I *ing hate others who are low paid as well but complain about rich people being rich.

 

[Les Malone]

Epidemiologist: Sweden’s COVID Response Isn’t Unorthodox. The Rest of the World’s Is | Jon Miltimore

As Sweden’s top infectious disease expert recently explained, Sweden’s approach to the pandemic is more orthodox than the current lockdown approach, at least compared to historical standards. “Are the people closing society completely, which has really never been done before, more or less...

fee.org