Society/Culture You cannot follow AFL and be left-wing or support diversity

[CheapCharlie]

Yes, but people need to understand why a country like Australia does this.

It is to counteract the difficult background many of them come from. Remember that a lot of minorities are refugees. If they don’t get a ‘leg up’, then it’ll become likely that the majority of them all remain at the bottom of the society pool for generations. This would form classes sorted by race where it statistically ends up becoming difficult to succeed based on the race you were born into, and you don’t really want that in a multi-cultured society. There are some other countries who have that and it’s sad to see how some of the minorities are treated now that their race is directly associated with low social ranks.

The way I see it is that this leg up isn’t just because they are a minority. It’s specifically about the situation that they come from. Once integrated into society, they’ll be treated the same as caucasians.

What percentage of minorities are refugees?

Frank Lowy (Wetsfeld founder) and Harry Triguboff (Meriton apartments) came to Australia as refugee class. Both are now some of Australias' richest people and they didn't need special treatment

Not sure why you think Caucasians have any special treatment in modern day Australia. Maybe back in the 1970s, but Australia has been increasingly multicultural for years

 

[Lsta062]

What percentage of minorities are refugees?

Frank Lowy (Wetsfeld founder) and Harry Triguboff (Meriton apartments) came to Australia as refugee class. Both are now some of Australias' richest people and they didn't need special treatment

Not sure why you think Caucasians have any special treatment in modern day Australia. Maybe back in the 1970s, but Australia has been increasingly multicultural for years

That is the exception and not the rule though. It is not realistic to expect every disadvantaged person to prosper when faced with adversity.

The minorities and caucasians that come from the same conditions (born in Australia with English-speaking parents) are basically treated the same and I don’t see the necessity to treat them differently. My nephews and nieces are not treated differently to any other Australian because they come from similar conditions to them and that’s fine. These type of minorities don’t need to fill a quota as they are just like anyone else.

The minorities that get a leg up though are those who come from disadvantaged backgrounds like refugees or have non-English speaking parents. I don’t mind this arrangement because it gives some intelligent people an opportunity to shine when they could not without assisitance. Many refugee groups that were new to Australia around the late 90s to early 2000s had children that are now prospering because of the extra support offered to them.

Essentially, minorities are not getting a leg up solely because of their race. It is more than that. Funnily enough, Caucasians kids who come from a background of financial difficulty or from rural areas also get a leg up because of their disadvantaged background compared with their average peers. For example, Universities have lower entry scores for students of underrepresented schools (typically schools with a lower socioeconomic-economic demographic) regardless of race.

 

[CheapCharlie]

That is the exception and not the rule though. It is not realistic to expect every disadvantaged person to prosper when faced with adversity.

The minorities and caucasians that come from the same conditions (born in Australia with English-speaking parents) are basically treated the same and I don’t see the necessity to treat them differently. My nephews and nieces are not treated differently to any other Australian because they come from similar conditions to them and that’s fine. These type of minorities don’t need to fill a quota as they are just like anyone else.

The minorities that get a leg up though are those who come from disadvantaged backgrounds like refugees or have non-English speaking parents. I don’t mind this arrangement because it gives some intelligent people an opportunity to shine when they could not without assisitance. Many refugee groups that were new to Australia around the late 90s to early 2000s had children that are now prospering because of the extra support offered to them.

Essentially, minorities are not getting a leg up solely because of their race. It is more than that. Funnily enough, Caucasians kids who come from a background of financial difficulty or from rural areas also get a leg up because of their disadvantaged background compared with their average peers. For example, Universities have lower entry scores for students of underrepresented schools (typically schools with a lower socioeconomic-economic demographic) regardless of race.

Who are the refugee groups that have prospered and what was the extra support given to them?

 

[Lsta062]

Who are the refugee groups that have prospered and what was the extra support given to them?

For example, in my ethnic group (I am not going to say which one) there were a lot of people who received financial assistance in their study from Centrelink or from their school, which meant that they were able to afford buying things like graphic calculators. This meant that they were able to study at home with ease rather than only being able to study at school. Refugee families are typically struggling financially given that they only come with the clothes on their back most of the time so they can’t afford basic study equipment.

Other things granted to people were the ability to enter university courses like Dentistry/Medicine with a slightly lower ENTER/ATAR as Universities know that students with a refugee background (especially recently) may not be able to get scores that they could have received should they have grown up in Australia with English-speaking parents. There are bursaries available from Universities and Centrelink for people with disadvantaged backgrounds that will assist them in buying necessary equipment used in their studies. That could be used to buy a laptop to make writing/handing in assignments easier or just lab equipments.

The capabilities and intelligence of the ones that I personally know became evident once they settled into Australia more after entering university, averaging distinctions and high distinctions. Now, many of them are qualified doctors, optometrists physiotherapists, engineers and dentists. Fantastic.

Without this extra assistance, I don’t know if they’d be able to do it because although they tried, their parents were not able to support them to the level that the parents of ordinary Australians are able to. Australia and its Universities recognised this and gave them a leg up to give them the ability to fulfil their potential just like their regular peers.

People need to understand that these bursaries and quotas are not there “just because you are a minority”. That's not correct because it is not about race itself. It depends on your background. If you are financially disadvantaged, then you are given assistance. If you are financially disadvantaged and have just fled a war-torn country, then you are given a bigger assistance because the limitations you face are greater. It so happens than Caucasians living here have not recently fled from a war-torn country. Hence, they don’t receive support like some minority groups who have.

 

[CheapCharlie]

For example, in my ethnic group (I am not going to say which one) there were a lot of people who received financial assistance in their study from Centrelink or from their school, which meant that they were able to afford buying things like graphic calculators. This meant that they were able to study at home with ease rather than only being able to study at school. Refugee families are typically struggling financially given that they only come with the clothes on their back most of the time so they can’t afford basic study equipment.

Other things granted to people were the ability to enter university courses like Dentistry/Medicine with a slightly lower ENTER/ATAR as Universities know that students with a refugee background (especially recently) may not be able to get scores that they could have received should they have grown up in Australia with English-speaking parents. There are bursaries available from Universities and Centrelink for people with disadvantaged backgrounds that will assist them in buying necessary equipment used in their studies. That could be used to buy a laptop to make writing/handing in assignments easier or just lab equipments.

The capabilities and intelligence of the ones that I personally know became evident once they settled into Australia more after entering university, averaging distinctions and high distinctions. Now, many of them are qualified doctors, optometrists physiotherapists, engineers and dentists. Fantastic.

Without this extra assistance, I don’t know if they’d be able to do it because although they tried, their parents were not able to support them to the level that the parents of ordinary Australians are able to. Australia and its Universities recognised this and gave them a leg up to give them the ability to fulfil their potential just like their regular peers.

People need to understand that these bursaries and quotas are not there “just because you are a minority”. That's not correct because it is not about race itself. It depends on your background. If you are financially disadvantaged, then you are given assistance. If you are financially disadvantaged and have just fled a war-torn country, then you are given a bigger assistance because the limitations you face are greater. It so happens than Caucasians living here have not recently fled from a war-torn country. Hence, they don’t receive support like some minority groups who have.

I can't help but think it is a problem when people still identify as a certain ethnic group. To be even handed shouldn't the thinking be everyone is a person?
Refugees aren't an ethnic group (and im not saying you implied they are) and the case could be made that they have already won a small lottery by leaving Sudan/Afghanistan/iraq and landing in Australia. Is there a need to give further advantages to newly arrived refugees over long time citizens?

Unfortunately, giving the leg up to someone with poorer grades, over someone with higher grades, is still disadvantaging a certain group. Those people who achieve high marks can miss out on a place in their chosen field, by a need to fill quotas.
Would the person achieving higher marks have made a better optometrist, physiotherapist, engineer or dentists than someone being given a quota position?

You use an example of your ethnic group being given financial gifts to help with study. Was this specific only to your ethnic group to qualify?

 

[Lsta062]

I can't help but think it is a problem when people still identify as a certain ethnic group. To be even handed shouldn't the thinking be everyone is a person?
Refugees aren't an ethnic group (and im not saying you implied they are) and the case could be made that they have already won a small lottery by leaving Sudan/Afghanistan/iraq and landing in Australia. Is there a need to give further advantages to newly arrived refugees over long time citizens?

Unfortunately, giving the leg up to someone with poorer grades, over someone with higher grades, is still disadvantaging a certain group. Those people who achieve high marks can miss out on a place in their chosen field, by a need to fill quotas.
Would the person achieving higher marks have made a better optometrist, physiotherapist, engineer or dentists than someone being given a quota position?

You use an example of your ethnic group being given financial gifts to help with study. Was this specific only to your ethnic group to qualify?

No, it was anyone from a disadvantaged background (e.g. a refugee). People in my ethnic group who were born to English-speaking parents and grew up in this society were not given a ‘leg up’. They are treated like any other person who has English-speaking parents that work full-time etc. I am specifically talking about the refugees among them. I know some of them who likely didn’t get incentives because their parents were doctors and were well off. These guys became doctors by getting really high grades just like any other ordinary Australian would.

Again, the whole point of my post is to say that it isn’t really about the ethnic group/race. It is about the circumstance. As I mentioned, white Australians that were born into financial difficulties attending underrepresented schools or were born and raised in some rural areas are given similar assistance. Universities know that they are also at a disadvantage to their ordinary peers so may accept them with lower grades. Hence, they are also accepted to meet a quota and it could be in the place of a higher-scoring student of colour born into a middle-class family who speak English fluently and are working.

A lot of people look at these incentives, look at the skin colour/race of the receiver and say “why do they get this and not my child” etc. when it is actually to do with circumstance and not with their skin colour or ethnicity.

 

[Scotland]

Weird premise for a thread.

I would've thought that Gil and co don't want you following the AFL unless you support diversity.