You should be Ashamed

[Gone Critical]

You didn’t answer my question. What exactly was it that Buckley said in public about Treloar and the playing group?

We all understand about the cap mismanagement and agree that it was tough on Treloar to be the one selected to go….but somebody had to. And it had to be somebody highly paid, with trade value (albeit a Franco cozzo grand sale), and maybe a bit flawed so we could cover their losses. All three players ticked those boxes.

Whether or not it should have been Sidebottom is a completely seperate question. Although I doubt Sidebottom would have been remotely in the same ball park in terms of trade value for 2020 draft picks or for salary cap relief in the long term. But that’s all off topic. You said Buckley publicly said bad things about Treloar. So what did he say exactly? In public?

You can look at the interview Buckley did with Whately about Nov 13th where he was pretty upfront about how the club forced the 3 out and that it was pretty brutal. We dont have the exact words that were used but I think we can accept it went beyond the normal

I have heard an account from the Phillips camp and thay have a much more business like approach to it. Still the description was 12 months of threat and intimidation to get him out the door. He resisted in 2019 off season and called the clubs bluff. In 2020 Collingwood went harder again and told him eventually he just wouldnt play seniors if he chose to stay. He did fight in 2020 as he didnt want to go but it reached the point where his position was untenable and he decided he had no choice. Even then the club tried to coerce him into going to Hawks on less money than he was contracted for so a deal could be done where Collingwood wasnt paying part of his wage

He stood his ground under his managers urging, was apparently going to give in, and eventually Pies blinked.

Buckley admits they were contracted players forced out and it was his worst moment in football. Not sure that should be disputed.

 

[magpies42]

Source?

Don’t need one. Just like people on here don’t need a source or any logic to make stupid comments

 

[Cata_Pendles]

12 months on I think the moves made were correct (at the time I was quite upset, particularly about Treloar).

 

[Billys Back]

It’s probably about time we moved on. Rightly or wrongly people involved in the fiasco are no longer at the club.
I’m sure the club has learned a great lesson.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

You can look at the interview Buckley did with Whately about Nov 13th where he was pretty upfront about how the club forced the 3 out and that it was pretty brutal. We dont have the exact words that were used but I think we can accept it went beyond the normal

I have heard an account from the Phillips camp and thay have a much more business like approach to it. Still the description was 12 months of threat and intimidation to get him out the door. He resisted in 2019 off season and called the clubs bluff. In 2020 Collingwood went harder again and told him eventually he just wouldnt play seniors if he chose to stay. He did fight in 2020 as he didnt want to go but it reached the point where his position was untenable and he decided he had no choice. Even then the club tried to coerce him into going to Hawks on less money than he was contracted for so a deal could be done where Collingwood wasnt paying part of his wage

He stood his ground under his managers urging, was apparently going to give in, and eventually Pies blinked.

Buckley admits they were contracted players forced out and it was his worst moment in football. Not sure that should be disputed.

Ironically and with the benefit of hindsight it was the failure to be brutal at the end of 2019 that forced them to be even more brutal in 2020.

Both Treloar and Phillips were given very strong hints to look elsewhere at the end of 2019 when their trade value was much higher, but they declined.

I can only imagine how easier last year would have been if we’d gone harder on the obvious looming cap problems in 2019.

Reminiscent of Collingwood trying to encourage Witts to move home to NSW to play for GWS, only to lose him to the Suns a year later for a bag of peanuts.

 

[Gone Critical]

Ironically and with the benefit of hindsight it was the failure to be brutal at the end of 2019 that forced them to be even more brutal in 2020.

Both Treloar and Phillips were given very strong hints to look elsewhere at the end of 2019 when their trade value was much higher, but they declined.

I can only imagine how easier last year would have been if we’d gone harder on the obvious looming cap problems in 2019.

Reminiscent of Collingwood trying to encourage Witts to move home to NSW to play for GWS, only to lose him to the Suns a year later for a bag of peanuts.

Possibly, although with Phillips they were pretty blunt in 2019. I was told he was on his offseason break playing golf somewhere overseas when he got a phone call from the club saying we want you out and we will force it. He resisted. The info came from the person he was playing golf with. Was told if he stayed he would not play on the wing and he would be devalued as a player. Remember Josh Daicos was a seconds player at that point so we didnt have a better wingman to replace him.

Not sure we could have got much more brutal. Also in 2019 he would have had 2 years of a high contract for another club to accomodate so may not have got anymore for him.

 

[Babylove]

I do feel that part of the issues last year around our "brutality" is the power imbalance in favour of players around player movement. Players can break contracts easily and move to their club of choice and the only option for clubs is to either send them where the want to go even if they aren't getting appropriate compensation or to hold the player against their will which often gets mixed results.

However, if the club needs to move a player on for whatever reason they need the player's agreement who still can dictate where they go.

It was interesting listening to Justin Leppitsch

Justin Leppitsch

Age

50

Ht

191cm

Wt

97kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

12.2

3star

K

8.3

3star

HB

3.9

3star

M

4.5

4star

T

1.2

3star

No current season stats available

D

8.2

2star

K

5.8

3star

HB

2.4

3star

M

0.6

1star

T

1.0

3star

on SEN this week as he had a brief discussion with Gerard about re-balancing the power by giving the balance of power to clubs while in contract similar to how they do it in US sports (which makes sense given we've gone halfway down that path anyway). So in that scenario while the player is in contract the club has the power, they guarantee the money and the length but not that they will be at the club for the duration. In this scenario we could move Treloar to Gold Coast for pick 1 or 2 (whichever they were offering at the time) without his permission. Or with Lachie Neale

9

Lachie Neale

Age

32

Ht

177cm

Wt

84kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

27.0

5star

K

11.5

4star

HB

15.5

5star

M

4.0

4star

T

3.7

5star

CL

5.9

5star

D

28.3

5star

K

13.9

5star

HB

14.4

5star

M

4.6

4star

T

4.0

5star

CL

5.9

5star

D

12.0

3star

K

4.6

2star

HB

7.4

5star

M

2.0

3star

T

1.0

3star

CL

0.4

3star

, he can request a trade but it is up to Brisbane to trade him where they can get the best deal. But then the power shifts back to players when they are out of contract. This may also stop players breaking contracts if they can't control where they go and clubs may be more amenable to opening up free agency more if the balance of power is redistributed back to them when players are in contract.

Now ultimately the club mismanaging the salary cap was the cause of what happens last year. But those problems where compounded by the inability to move players on as they needed to fix the issue which resulted in what happened last year IMO.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Although, to be fair, it would have been pretty damn obvious

Ah yeah, obvious

yeah, I have heard folks lambast the club for friggen everything

Yeah the minuscule minority

Mayne - nobody would be complaining if we’d kicked another goal in 2018 GF.

Still way way overs, Wells - was probably a bit early for the purposes of an all in for a tilt.

You would have been cool for us to let our AA ruckman walk?

We'd be in a better position cap wise, if no budge then see yah, obviously I'm not in the minority here.

Huh? Sure, we’re not contending today, but we were contending during that 2018 - 2020 period when our cap was maxed out?

And then there's other teams that build dynasties, but no, we had scrap and scrange coz we fkd it ever since that stupid failed succession plan.

 

[Jasper84]

I do feel that part of the issues last year around our "brutality" is the power imbalance in favour of players around player movement. Players can break contracts easily and move to their club of choice and the only option for clubs is to either send them where the want to go even if they aren't getting appropriate compensation or to hold the player against their will which often gets mixed results.

However, if the club needs to move a player on for whatever reason they need the player's agreement who still can dictate where they go.

It was interesting listening to Justin Leppitsch on SEN this week as he had a brief discussion with Gerard about re-balancing the power by giving the balance of power to clubs while in contract similar to how they do it in US sports (which makes sense given we've gone halfway down that path anyway). So in that scenario while the player is in contract the club has the power, they guarantee the money and the length but not that they will be at the club for the duration. In this scenario we could move Treloar to Gold Coast for pick 1 or 2 (whichever they were offering at the time) without his permission. Or with Lachie Neale, he can request a trade but it is up to Brisbane to trade him where they can get the best deal. But then the power shifts back to players when they are out of contract. This may also stop players breaking contracts if they can't control where they go and clubs may be more amenable to opening up free agency more if the balance of power is redistributed back to them when players are in contract.

Now ultimately the club mismanaging the salary cap was the cause of what happens last year. But those problems where compounded by the inability to move players on as they needed to fix the issue which resulted in what happened last year IMO.

The AFL could also just scrap the front and back loading BS. The player gets the same amount each of year of their contract and if the club doesn't have the money to bring in another player, bad luck. It shouldn't be put on the players to arrange how they get paid for the sake of the team, like the Treloar situation.

 

[mike123]

I do feel that part of the issues last year around our "brutality" is the power imbalance in favour of players around player movement. Players can break contracts easily and move to their club of choice and the only option for clubs is to either send them where the want to go even if they aren't getting appropriate compensation or to hold the player against their will which often gets mixed results.

However, if the club needs to move a player on for whatever reason they need the player's agreement who still can dictate where they go.

It was interesting listening to Justin Leppitsch on SEN this week as he had a brief discussion with Gerard about re-balancing the power by giving the balance of power to clubs while in contract similar to how they do it in US sports (which makes sense given we've gone halfway down that path anyway). So in that scenario while the player is in contract the club has the power, they guarantee the money and the length but not that they will be at the club for the duration. In this scenario we could move Treloar to Gold Coast for pick 1 or 2 (whichever they were offering at the time) without his permission. Or with Lachie Neale, he can request a trade but it is up to Brisbane to trade him where they can get the best deal. But then the power shifts back to players when they are out of contract. This may also stop players breaking contracts if they can't control where they go and clubs may be more amenable to opening up free agency more if the balance of power is redistributed back to them when players are in contract.

Now ultimately the club mismanaging the salary cap was the cause of what happens last year. But those problems where compounded by the inability to move players on as they needed to fix the issue which resulted in what happened last year IMO.

Clubs get compensated fine when a player breaks contract, the power balance is fine.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

The AFL could also just scrap the front and back loading BS. The player gets the same amount each of year of their contract and if the club doesn't have the money to bring in another player, bad luck. It shouldn't be put on the players to arrange how they get paid for the sake of the team, like the Treloar situation.

Not sure I agree with that. The AFL shouldn’t need to bring in rules to protect clubs from their own incompetence.

Front and backloading contracts is an excellent list management tool if executed correctly.

 

[PREETY_FLY]

12 months on I think the moves made were correct (at the time I was quite upset, particularly about Treloar).

Exactly! How many decent games did Stephenson play? like 3 or 4?? I remember he Had a cracker of a game in rd 1 or 2 and the collingwood pages on FB blew up... One thing Jayiden could never do and thats back up a great preformance.
Treloar hasnt been too crash hot either.

 

[Babylove]

The AFL could also just scrap the front and back loading BS. The player gets the same amount each of year of their contract and if the club doesn't have the money to bring in another player, bad luck. It shouldn't be put on the players to arrange how they get paid for the sake of the team, like the Treloar situation.

The issue wasn't front or backloading contracts. The issue was we agreed to big contracts rather than say no and be prepared to let a player go if they didn't agree to a more reasonable offer. We were agreeing to big contracts both for players on our list and to get players like Beams, Wells and Mayne to agree to come to the club. We've got to be better at be willing to say no and let a player go to market if they want more than we can responsibly commit too.

 

[Albert Parker]

I'm sympathetic to the extent that some clubs were counting on ongoing inflation in the salary cap in order to fit star players in outer years.
i gather Sydney have been caught out by Buddy's contract. At say $1m a season, it was 5% of a $20m total cap, but that $1m per season would fall as a % of the cap if the salary cap inflation occurred to $22m per season etc.

But the rules around the ability to trade players while in contract, etc etc were all known quantities at the time of signing those deals.
It was simply imprudent to (mis)manage things on player contracts to the extent Collingwood did, even in the event we were 'in the window'.
Even Geelong managed to play off in a Grand Final and bring in Cameron on big $ subsequent. And they've been a consistent Top 4 club for a decade.
To offload Treloar etc, get pittance in return and still be unable to afford to pay part of the annual shortfall this season simply shows the extent to which we had overcooked things. It was woeful.
We then compounded the problem with the handling of the exits. I think it set us back this season beyond the loss of the talent in Treloar/Stephenson etc.
It did cultural damage within the ranks of the remaining players.

Rather ironic that the Blues hired Geoff Walsh to review their football department, having exited ours under such a big cloud.
I suppose you can learn from your mistakes.

Anyhow, it will be nice to get the Board sorted. We're on the right track with McRae I believe.

 

[South of the Yarra]

Geez my melt is still getting traction.

 

[magpies42]

Possibly, although with Phillips they were pretty blunt in 2019. I was told he was on his offseason break playing golf somewhere overseas when he got a phone call from the club saying we want you out and we will force it. He resisted. The info came from the person he was playing golf with. Was told if he stayed he would not play on the wing and he would be devalued as a player. Remember Josh Daicos was a seconds player at that point so we didnt have a better wingman to replace him.

Not sure we could have got much more brutal. Also in 2019 he would have had 2 years of a high contract for another club to accomodate so may not have got anymore for him.

Brutal potentially yes, but it depends on perspective. Players asked for free agency, more money and greater freedoms. Loyalty went out the window a long time ago, clubs are no different. If you look at some other codes And sports around the world…they are properly brutal when it comes to trading!

I felt mostly for Adam, he was a heart and would player and didn’t want to leave. But that’s business.

 

[sr36]

12 months on I think the moves made were correct (at the time I was quite upset, particularly about Treloar).

I think we'll regret Stephenson, but Treloar and Phillips not so much - shame we didn't get more for Adz though.

 

[Carringbush2010]

I think we'll regret Stephenson, but Treloar and Phillips not so much - shame we didn't get more for Adz though.

From an on field performance perspective you may well be right, but there's no escaping the regret of the overwhelming undervalue of how we traded last year.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

I think we'll regret Stephenson, but Treloar and Phillips not so much - shame we didn't get more for Adz though.

Turn it the other way around and maybe it’s a different story. Dogs might start to regret Treloar, north will be having serious concerns about Stevo (although staying optimistic) whilst hawks will be happy enough with the reliable Phillips

 

[Gabbo64]

Wow? This old chestnut is still getting a flogging. We can't change the past, but can learn from it. We can change. That's all that matters now.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Wow? This old chestnut is still getting a flogging. We can't change the past, but can learn from it. We can change. That's all that matters now.

Less than 12 months in... its not hurting anybody to look back with the lens of hindsight. Doesn’t stop learning and looking forward unless you have trouble double tasking.

 

[davywap]

The words spoken publicly by Buckley regarding Adam's relationship with his teammates were frankly unsavoury. Not Nathan's proudest moment either.

He never said anything, it was told he said those things which he flat out denied

 

[davywap]

Everyone still seems to overlook the fact that by moving him on Adam was still able to earn his hundreds of thousands of dollars without taking a pay cut, just think about that before you go feeling sorry for him. Just add to that that now he will get to play in a grand final and possibly a premiership.

 

[davywap]

I love how a certain veteran poster around here no longer has the balls to contribute so they just lol at posts they don't like like some creepy stalker....

 

[Queenie Hearts]

He never said anything, it was told he said those things which he flat out denied

Adam is a lovely person but I think what he heard and what was said may not have matched.

I heard Bucks talk about the trade debacle this year in quite direct and honest terms . He said that it didn’t go well as Adam was someone who epitomised the values of the group of being vulnerable and showing care for others and that it had impacted the group as some older players worried they could be next and it undermined trust. He said that he was surprised at how bad the salary cap position had become and accepted that a hard choice had to be made once he understood that better. He said that Adam had asked him during the discussion if the leadership group knew about the decision to trade him and Bucks said yes, they were already aware. Adam took that as the players were supportive of the decision and wanted him gone when they were told so that they could offer him support after the meeting, anticipating that it would not go well as Adam was a bit fragile.

Interestingly, Bucks said that on reflection it would have been better for Walsh to deliver the news as Footy Manager as it had an impact on the playing group and his relationship with Adam and them. He said it wasn’t fatal but it did have an impact which he regretted.