List Mgmt. Young, Newnes, White & Rice left behind

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ike2112 said:
It's not going to be difficult next year at all - we have too many tall defenders. One of Austin and Clavarino is gone.
We have too many small/medium forwards who don't contribute enough - one of Long, Kent, Parker, Lonie is probably gone.
We have other peripheral players who need a big year - if they don't play plenty AFL, they're in trouble - Phillips, Sinclair, Langlands, Hind, McKenzie. Maybe one of Webster and Savage is in trouble if Jones plays HB and Coffield nails down same role. What if Paton doesn't see an AFL game all year?
Some of who I've listed I expect to kick on; fully expect Hind to bed in as a worthy AFL player for example. But some won't. By law of averages at least one I've mentioned is likely to miss a lot of time with injury, it happens.
Also there's a fair chance Geary might retire after next year.
And even if he overcomes concussion issues, which seems unlikely, if he's on the list in 2020 Paddy is going to have to at very least kick a barrelload at VFL level or he's gone too.

So just as an example we could easily see Clavarino, Phillips, Langlands and Paddy delisted, Long traded and Gears retire.

If taken in national draft you now have to give minimum 2yr (as we had to with Young, then pay out after 1).
If its rookie draft its 1yr and then you can extend them on rookie list if mutually agreed for another year, to a max of 3yr. After that you can't extend them on rookie list, you have to elevate, or release, at which point you can actually rookie them again. I think we did this with Minchington? And maybe Pierce too, I think he was redrafted.

Also next years may be a draft where 6 or 7 of the top 10 players are already tied to academies etc, but they still have to bid on them, and we can still happily get one of the other few. In the supposedly neutered 2012 draft, Stringer, Macrae and Wines were still selected 5-6-7 and Grundy at 18. There's still players there, and if anything I'd have thought it's a little easier for scouting because you aren't competing with some of the clubs cos you pretty much know who they're taking.
I would rather this, than the scenario where we pretty much had to take Paddy as the only decent tall, in a draft year where there were almost no other good talls. He graded high based on lack of competition.

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Whilst i somewhat agree, many of those players listed have contracts next year. as per https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/list-contract-status.1153898/

Long contracted until 2022 (silly move)
Kent Contracted until 2021
Parker and Lonie 2020 but i expect them both to keep there spots.
Austin and Clavarino 2020 but they have both shown signs & Carlisle who is out of contract in 2020 may be traded.
the List goes on.


And dont forget, we are now a DESTINATION CLUB and will be bringing in another 3+ players in next year via free agency and trading with our first rounder.
 
ike2112 said:
That just explains that we listed him using the preseason supplementary option. You're treated as a rookie, it's the same as Rowe. If someone was put on LTI list, you could replace them.
Mayo was then a mid-season draft selection, but again that was only possible if there was a spot in the 44 (primary and rookie list) due to an LTI, its just more organised than the preseason option which is basically a free-for-all.

This page shows who was a rookie or not:

St Kilda Playing List for 2019 - Draftguru

www.draftguru.com.au www.draftguru.com.au

(whilst also debunking the myth that we're young and inexperienced - we're 13th for experience and 9th for age, both of which will rise a fair bit next year given our recruits).

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We may not have had the youngest list overall but we had the 2nd-3rd youngest best 22 team due to injury. If we didnt draft the mature age recruits (Wilke, Parker , Rowe, Marsh ect.) we would have been one of the top 3 youngest sides.
 
maanco said:
We may not have had the youngest list overall but we had the 2nd-3rd youngest best 22 team due to injury. If we didnt draft the mature age recruits (Wilke, Parker , Rowe, Marsh ect.) we would have been one of the top 3 youngest sides.
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It specifically counts who played in the games, not the profile of the overall list, so to your own point it actually only included the mature age players if they played.
If you have a ton of young players but they don't play, then your list could look young when your actual team most weeks isn't. We're somewhere around that - of course not helped by neither Bytel or King playing a game, Wilkie, Parker and Hind being mature agers, even Marshall as much as this was his first proper year, he's 23 I think?

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ike2112 said:
It specifically counts who played in the games, not the profile of the overall list, so to your own point it actually only included the mature age players if they played.
If you have a ton of young players but they don't play, then your list could look young when your actual team most weeks isn't. We're somewhere around that - of course not helped by neither Bytel or King playing a game, Wilkie, Parker and Hind being mature agers, even Marshall as much as this was his first proper year, he's 23 I think?

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Im going off memory from https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/afl_team_selections which shows team experience and age.

+ I'm almost certain draft guru calculates the full list; not who has played that year. Happy to be disproved.
 
ike2112 said:
It specifically counts who played in the games, not the profile of the overall list, so to your own point it actually only included the mature age players if they played.
If you have a ton of young players but they don't play, then your list could look young when your actual team most weeks isn't. We're somewhere around that - of course not helped by neither Bytel or King playing a game, Wilkie, Parker and Hind being mature agers, even Marshall as much as this was his first proper year, he's 23 I think?

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No, it counts full list age.

We were regularly fielding one of the three youngest and least experienced teams each week last season, with Gold Coast and Sydney. We were averaging between 65-75 games experience each week and were regularly fielding a team with an average age around 23. Our least experienced week was against GWS when we only had 56 average games experience, which was the lowest any team fielded all season.

By comparison, that list has Brisbane with the 2nd youngest list yet all season they were fielding a team within the top 8 for average age and games experience. They were fielding a team with between 90-107 games experience each week and an average age of 25 years - which put them firmly in the bracket of where teams historically play finals and a reason why no one should have been surprised they finished as high as they did.
 
Sainteric said:
If Jones and Ross and off I/C Dunstan are still on the centreline I can't see us improving much. Clark has to be told that he is in the middle, hopefully with coffield backup and Parker on the other wing .
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I agree.

It was more to show that we have the group together.

In 4 years time Dunstan should be the 22nd best player in the team and on the edge ala Brandon Ellis at the Tigers. Playing his role very well but not so critical to the team that he can't be dropped. Either that or he carries on with the form he found under Ratts at the end of the year and turns into the clearance beast we were all hoping for.

Jones and Ross I think will keep surprising people.

With a fully fit Hanners, Steele doing his defensive work, Dunstan as the smash mouth insider, Clark stepping up a gear, Coffield getting a taste, Bytel possibly walking in, etc then Ross gets to play his natural game of running blokes into the ground. I look at Seb as an 'Inside link' player.

His kicking isn't elite but he generally doesnt try things that he can't pull off. With a good inside team in front of him and a better outside running squad, he can get on his bike and help move the ball. He is very very good at the forwards handball. It's something I honestly hate in football but it's a tactic that is in vogue ATM. We are going to see heaps of "Dunstan, quick handball to Ross who thumps it looooong forward out in front of Hill..."

Jones is very much the same. The talk of him being a poor kick is over played. His skills are fine, he needs to clean up his decision making. Too often at Sydney he just hoofed it off half back because he was under pressure. Other times he gets caught holding it because he doesn't want to turn it over again. Hopefully Ratts has a plan to give him some time and space to run and carry the footy. At worst he will be Savage 2.0 and that is fine. Teams need role players.

Get excited about our backline though. If Roberton gets fit then we could be looking at an incredible group. I was super hyped for Wilkie last year and I honestly think Howard is going to be the steal of the offseason. If he stays fit he is going to be one of the elite defenders in the comp.
 
L_W_P said:
In 4 years time Dunstan should be the 22nd best player in the team and on the edge ala Brandon Ellis at the Tigers. Playing his role very well but not so critical to the team that he can't be dropped. Either that or he carries on with the form he found under Ratts at the end of the year and turns into the clearance beast we were all hoping for.

Jones and Ross I think will keep surprising people.

With a fully fit Hanners, Steele doing his defensive work, Dunstan as the smash mouth insider, Clark stepping up a gear, Coffield getting a taste, Bytel possibly walking in, etc then Ross gets to play his natural game of running blokes into the ground. I look at Seb as an 'Inside link' player.

His kicking isn't elite but he generally doesnt try things that he can't pull off. With a good inside team in front of him and a better outside running squad, he can get on his bike and help move the ball. He is very very good at the forwards handball. It's something I honestly hate in football but it's a tactic that is in vogue ATM. We are going to see heaps of "Dunstan, quick handball to Ross who thumps it looooong forward out in front of Hill..."

Jones is very much the same. The talk of him being a poor kick is over played. His skills are fine, he needs to clean up his decision making. Too often at Sydney he just hoofed it off half back because he was under pressure. Other times he gets caught holding it because he doesn't want to turn it over again. Hopefully Ratts has a plan to give him some time and space to run and carry the footy. At worst he will be Savage 2.0 and that is fine. Teams need role players.

Get excited about our backline though. If Roberton gets fit then we could be looking at an incredible group. I was super hyped for Wilkie last year and I honestly think Howard is going to be the steal of the offseason. If he stays fit he is going to be one of the elite defenders in the comp.
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It assumes there is no more improvement in there. Dunstan was a career 3-4 clearance per game player before this season, which confirmed a narrative that he wasn't really excellent at any one thing. This year he averaged 6.17 clearances a game, which was 12th in the league. He also averaged career highs in kicks, disposals, inside 50s, free kicks and contested possessions. Considering how he plays if he could find a way in the team structure to get to 25 disposals per game that would be excellent.

We should be in a position now where it really doesn't matter which individual players make it, just that enough guys do make it for us to be successful. At least 30 guys on the list at the moment whom I'd have no major problem with them playing Round 1.
 
majortinkle said:
Having said we had 3 picks, I must be missing someone as I only have 41 currently contracted with Alabakis a B that means 4 slots not 3 - who am I missing?


1 1 Coffield
2 2 Carlisle
3 4 Gresham
4 5 Savage
5 6 Ross
6 7 Dunstan
7 9 Steele
8 10 Hannebery
9 11 Clark
10 12 King
11 13 Lonie
12 14 Geary
13 15 Billings
14 17 Roberton
15 19 Marshall
16 21 Long
17 22 Brown
18 23 Bytel
19 24 Austin
20 25 Kent
21 26 Battle
22 28 Membrey
23 29 Webster
24 30 Phillips
25 32 McCartin
26 33 Paton
27 34 Parker
28 35 Sinclair
29 36 McKenzie
30 38 Clavarino
31 39 Joyce R
32 40 Hind
33 43 Marsh R
34 44 Wilkie R
35 45 Alabakis RB
36 46 Langlands R
37 48 Mayo R
38 Howard
39 Jones
40 Hill
41 Butler
42 Ryder


Agree that we're a couple of talls over the ideal quota if we assume we pick Nuyon - that's even if we go 3 tall front and back

St Kilda
FB Geary Howard Roberton
HB Coffield Carlisle Webster
C Billings Ross Hill
HF Kent King Gresham
FF Butler Marshall Membrey
R Ryder Steele Dunstan
I/T Clark Hannebery Jones Lonie


Sandy
FB Paton Brown Austin
HB Savage Clavarino Wilkie
C Phillips DRAFTEE Hind
HF Parker Battle Langlands
FF Long Joyce Mayo
R Nuyon Bytel Sinclair
I/T Marsh Mckenzie
Em McCartin Alabakis

We're most obviously short of inside mids and need a 3rd Ruck assuming Alabakis isn't close enough and he's the 45th player anyway

I don't agree that we have too many small forwards though - while our starting 3 inside mids can't rest forward we need 4 in the 22

I could believe we aim to get value from Carlisle through a trade and like you see Geary coming to an end and Phillips not making it. Mccartin retires through injury. Hard to imagine Langlands getting the opportunities next year to warrant an upgrade to the senior list and I have a feeling that we'll reluctantly let Parker go back to WA - I reckon we would have had a contract in front of him by now and he remains unsigned. That's 6 and we should be able to have a completely balance list position wise - assuming that's what we'd like.

It's a long time since the projected Sandy bench isn't full of HBFs - it being full of unready/unavailable talls isn't really an improvement mind you....
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Updated list - whoever was arguing the website was wrong on Marsh being a senior must be correct.

Only way we can navigate through the drafts now without cutting contracted players is: 2 National Draft picks (51 & 82) one of which will be for Nuyon we assume and promote Joyce to Seniors with 100

No rookie picks.

And we're even taller in our Sandy backline...
 

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