Your Top 20 NBA players of all time - nbaman edition!

[plowking]

No love for Kidd? He's better than Payton and Nash in my opinion.

I have no problem with Kidd being rated better, but I'm not a big fan of his game. As a point guard, I think it's important to be a good shooter when the ball is kicked out to you from the inside. Kidd wasn't that during the earlier part of his career. Also his rebounding was never a big draw for me. I often found when I watched him play he'd sag off his man too much and play closer to the ring. Which is fine for transition play, though bad if the ball gets kicked to your man.
I just value scoring, shooting and playmaking the most from the PG position. Defense isn't something I find overly important because I can only really name Payton as someone that shut down opposing wing players. Kidd wasn't that type of defender. But yeah, defense isn't a be all end all at the PG position.
I just think Nash was more dynamic in the ways he could hurt you. He's great at getting to the rim and shooting, undeniably better than Kidd. In my opinion he's also the better passer, though a lot like to argue that. Rebounding... It's not like I need my PG to get a lot. And defense... Kidd was far better, but once again, I think it's the one position on the court you can get away with it.

 

[jod23]

In what way is Hakeem a better basketball player than Shaq? Shaq is a better scorer, and with his size and physical presence you could argue that alone was one of the greatest defensive tactics ever. Who's gonna drive on Shaq? It's the exact same reason we don't see Lebron James posterize anyone these days; no one wants to get in the way of him driving to the basket.

Anyway, back to the original debate...
I'm not sure if you know at the time, but Magic said coming out of college that he'd only leave for the NBA if he was guaranteed to play with Kareem. So, the man was guaranteed a stack team coming out of college... Which is why I hated the backlash when Lebron decided to join my Heat, and it was particularly funny coming from Magic saying he 'wouldn't have done that back in the day'... Well Magic, you kinda did.

Bird was the rookie of the year that year, and as for that game, it's hilarious the notion that has followed with it. Magic didn't play center that game. He took the jump ball and guarded the center on a few possessions, mainly on switches. If we're going to play that game, Lebron played every position on the court just this last game. He guarded Garnett a lot, and he took the jump balls. His 45/15/5 game should get similar love for being all over the court at every position, no?

I'm not a Laker fan, I'm not a Celtic fan, I'm completely unbiased on the matter. I know which player was better, and I know how Magic came to be viewed as better.
My point is, go back and listen to what the basketball community was saying as they were playing, even ending their careers... Bird was considered better. Bird didn't do much to stay in the limelight where as Magic has continued to be around the basketball community constantly on the television. You also have the Kobe vs Michael debate, which has impacted how people see Bird and Magic. Some how now it's all about championships that makes the better player when you get to that level of players.
2 championships won't ever change my mind, just like if Kobe gets 8 championships I'm not going to rate him above Michael. Because he wasn't better. Both great, but one better than the other.

Ive been through the Shaq v Hakeem thing a few pages back. Basically both were elite scorers. Shaq through power, Hakeem through unbelievable post moves and good shooting. Shaq was limited offensively, particularly later in his career when he was no longer quick and powerful. Had almost no shooting range and was a terrible FT shooter. Hakeem a great FT shooter for his size. Also you claim Shaq's size just made him automatically a great defender cos nobody wanted to drive at him. That is the most ridiculous argument I have ever heard. Shaq was a below average defender and for his size and power, that makes it almost unforgivable. Hakeem was one of the greatest defensive bigmen the league has ever seen.

Shaq got 4 titles in a post MJ era. Olajuwon took his opportunity through MJ's first retirement to get 2. Decent effort on both parts. But on pure basketball ability, on both ends of the floor. I give it to Hakeem Olajuwon.

Onto Magic Johnson and your completely twisted spin on the truth. Magic Johnson was drafted so he wasnt a free agent who could choose to play anywhere he wanted. The Lakers won the 79-80 draft in a coin toss with the Chicago Bulls. He said if the Bulls won the toss and wanted to select him he would have stayed in college another year but when the Lakers won and said they wanted him, he decided to leave college because the opportunity to play with Kareem was one he couldnt pass up. So yeah... nice effort on that bullshit.

Bird did win rookie of the year that year. Magic won the NBA title with an unbelievable game in game 6 of the NBA Finals. Wonder which one he wanted more? Who gives a * about LeBron, he's not in this argument.

Im not a Lakers fan or a Celtics fan either but in the end it has to come down to who won more. They both got 3 MVP awards, both played on stacked teams. Both played eachother in their prime. Bird got 3 titles. Magic got 5. Has to play a part. Being a winner helps every cause. Im not hating on Bird. Top 5/6 player to ever play the game and mentioned in the same breath as guys like MJ, Russell, Wilt etc.. but I just think Magic was that tiny, teeny little bit better.

As I said though, it's Jordan then daylight. After that their is those 5 blokes with hardly anything between them. That's Wilt, Russell, Oscar, Magic and Bird. Then comes Kareem.

 

[Thewlis Dish]

No love for Kidd? He's better than Payton and Nash in my opinion.

I think Payton's best was better than Kidd or Nash, and don't think he gets enough credit for how dominant he could be at both ends.

 

[plowking]

Ive been through the Shaq v Hakeem thing a few pages back. Basically both were elite scorers. Shaq through power, Hakeem through unbelievable post moves and good shooting. Shaq was limited offensively, particularly later in his career when he was no longer quick and powerful. Had almost no shooting range and was a terrible FT shooter. Hakeem a great FT shooter for his size. Also you claim Shaq's size just made him automatically a great defender cos nobody wanted to drive at him. That is the most ridiculous argument I have ever heard. Shaq was a below average defender and for his size and power, that makes it almost unforgivable. Hakeem was one of the greatest defensive bigmen the league has ever seen.

Shaq got 4 titles in a post MJ era. Olajuwon took his opportunity through MJ's first retirement to get 2. Decent effort on both parts. But on pure basketball ability, on both ends of the floor. I give it to Hakeem Olajuwon.

Onto Magic Johnson and your completely twisted spin on the truth. Magic Johnson was drafted so he wasnt a free agent who could choose to play anywhere he wanted. The Lakers won the 79-80 draft in a coin toss with the Chicago Bulls. He said if the Bulls won the toss and wanted to select him he would have stayed in college another year but when the Lakers won and said they wanted him, he decided to leave college because the opportunity to play with Kareem was one he couldnt pass up. So yeah... nice effort on that bullshit.

Bird did win rookie of the year that year. Magic won the NBA title with an unbelievable game in game 6 of the NBA Finals. Wonder which one he wanted more? Who gives a [censored] about LeBron, he's not in this argument.

Im not a Lakers fan or a Celtics fan either but in the end it has to come down to who won more. They both got 3 MVP awards, both played on stacked teams. Both played eachother in their prime. Bird got 3 titles. Magic got 5. Has to play a part. Being a winner helps every cause. Im not hating on Bird. Top 5/6 player to ever play the game and mentioned in the same breath as guys like MJ, Russell, Wilt etc.. but I just think Magic was that tiny, teeny little bit better.

As I said though, it's Jordan then daylight. After that their is those 5 blokes with hardly anything between them. That's Wilt, Russell, Oscar, Magic and Bird. Then comes Kareem.

How is that different to anything I said? Magic didn't want to leave for the NBA unless he went straight on a stacked team. There is no hypothetical "well Magic would have added wins to his teams column if he went on a bad team". We'll never know because he didn't want to leave for that.

Of course Bird wanted a title more, but it just shows coming straight out of college Magic had an elite team, where as Bird made his team elite and was the better player first year.

Going by who won more is this most ridiculous thing ever. Both had great teams, Magic had better and for longer. Since Bird was the better player in their rookie seasons, how does Magic winning one that season make him better?

He wasn't better, he just won more.

Shaq may have been limited offensively later in his career, yet he still had a longer career than Olajuwon. Better longevity, better stats, more rings, more dominant. I don't see the case for Olajuwon. Another player who's whole perception changed in that 2 years Jordan was out.

Not to mention your whole argument with Magic vs Bird is that one won more so therefore he's better. Then when it's Shaq vs Hakeem you throw it out the window. Interesting.

 

[peternorth]

but plowking, is kg a top 20 all time player?

 

[DEVO]

How is that different to anything I said? Magic didn't want to leave for the NBA unless he went straight on a stacked team. There is no hypothetical "well Magic would have added wins to his teams column if he went on a bad team". We'll never know because he didn't want to leave for that.

Of course Bird wanted a title more, but it just shows coming straight out of college Magic had an elite team, where as Bird made his team elite and was the better player first year.

Going by who won more is this most ridiculous thing ever. Both had great teams, Magic had better and for longer. Since Bird was the better player in their rookie seasons, how does Magic winning one that season make him better?

He wasn't better, he just won more.

Shaq may have been limited offensively later in his career, yet he still had a longer career than Olajuwon. Better longevity, better stats, more rings, more dominant. I don't see the case for Olajuwon. Another player who's whole perception changed in that 2 years Jordan was out.

Not to mention your whole argument with Magic vs Bird is that one won more so therefore he's better. Then when it's Shaq vs Hakeem you throw it out the window. Interesting.

I wouldn't call the Lakers of 1978/79 an elite team, their were blown off the court comfortably by the Supersonics in 5 in the conf. semi's. They were a finals calibre team (similiar to what the Lakers are now), but with obvious deficencies (similiar to what the Lakers are now) that they were unable to fill until Magic's arrival in in '79 and Worthy's arrival in '82. That's not to say the didn't have stars in their line-up, they had Kareem and Silk (Jamaal Wilkes), Cooper was a rookie and Norm Nixon was good, but they were pretty thin after that. The Lakers actually improved from 47 wins to 60 in Magic's first season and only once (excluding the 80/81 season when he only played 32 games) fell below 55 wins during Magic's career.

Regarding the Bird/Magic debate, I'd like to add my two cents, but firstly I should state that I am a Laker fan, and when I included my top 20 players of all-time to this thread I listed Magic at #1, but that decision was based on having seen Magic's entire career, some of it live at the LA Forum (we had season tickets Magic's rookie year and also went to the games when my father was relocated to LA at other times during the '80's) and numerous other stadiums across the USA, and saw hundreds of games on TV during the eighties and later on video and DVD. Because the Lakers great rival at the time was Boston, I have also seen a lot of Larry Bird's games.

Larry Bird is the finest Small Forward I have ever seen, but I wouldn't call him a 'natural' basketballer, he did have some deficiencies, he wasn't as quick or athletic as some of the finest players of his day, but what he lacked physically he made up for in other areas, he is probaly the smartest basketballer that has ever played the game. Statisically Bird's career looks better than Magic's, but statisics can be misleading. From the day Bird walked into the Boston Gardens the Celtics were his team, while early in Magic's career he didn't have the burden of being the team's #1 scoring option which is why his scoring average is 5ppg lower than Bird's. The teams style of play was also fashioned around Bird's and Magic's personalities, Boston's style of play was tough and methodical with Bird making the most of every opportunity, while the Lakers "showtime" style of play was up-tempo and flashy, which lead to numerous fast breaks opportunities every game, mostly instigated by Magic but involving numerous players and passes that didn't end up in Magic's assist tally, which (unfortunately for Magic assists are recorded against the player who makes the final pass and not the person who instigates the play. Obvious I know) should be 2-3apg higher than the already impressive 11.2apg. When the Lakers (finally) became Magic's team in the mid eighties, his averages were closer to 23ppg and 12.5apg, the Lakers were also consistantly winning 60+ games during the regular season and Magic dominated the MVP voting winning his 3 MVP awards over a four year span.

The two things that elevate Magic above Bird for me are:
We have seen the likes of Larry Bird before, they weren't good as him, but the blueprint was there in previous decades. I remember hearing some people in the States early in his career calling him John Havilcek version 2, an improved version of a Celtic legend.
I listed Magic at #1 because he was not only the finest basketballer I have seen, but a basketballer like no other. The NBA had never seen a player like him before, and hasn't really seen one since, a 6'9" PG who could play every position when required, who dominated and revolutionised his position and who was a major piece in the most beautiful style of basketball I've seen, SHOWTIME.
The other reason is the titles won. Generally I'm not big fan of using titles to compare players, because in most cases it used to compare players from different era's but this case is the execption, both started in 1979/80 and both finished in the early '90's. Magic won 5 titles in total, and 2 against Boston, while Bird won 3 titles and only 1 against the Lakers. On the biggest stage in the biggest games, Magic shaded Bird more times when it counted most.

 

[stewie griffen]

Great post Devo

And I do agree with Thewlis on Payton not getting enough credit, he was a damn fine player.

At the end of the day tho, its hard enough to compare players of the same eras, ie Bird/Magic, let alone trying to throw a blanket over 60 odd years of NBA players. Naturally, players just keeping getting bigger, faster, stronger and more athletic, and on top of that every 'era' has its own strengths and weaknesses. For instance, right now there's a dearth of dominant centres, but a lot of good point guards - or do the points just look better coz there's no Russell, Mutombo in the paint. Rule changes also muddy the waters, with the changing of illegal defense, 3 point line, tolerance on hand checking and the like.

 

[OrdinaryJoel]

Great post Devo

And I do agree with Thewlis on Payton not getting enough credit, he was a damn fine player.

At the end of the day tho, its hard enough to compare players of the same eras, ie Bird/Magic, let alone trying to throw a blanket over 60 odd years of NBA players. Naturally, players just keeping getting bigger, faster, stronger and more athletic, and on top of that every 'era' has its own strengths and weaknesses. For instance, right now there's a dearth of dominant centres, but a lot of good point guards - or do the points just look better coz there's no Russell, Mutombo in the paint. Rule changes also muddy the waters, with the changing of illegal defense, 3 point line, tolerance on hand checking and the like.

Agree with this 100%! Very, very hard to judge best 20 P.O.A.T. but the lists conjured up so far have been fun to read

 

[jod23]

I wouldn't call the Lakers of 1978/79 an elite team, their were blown off the court comfortably by the Supersonics in 5 in the conf. semi's. They were a finals calibre team (similiar to what the Lakers are now), but with obvious deficencies (similiar to what the Lakers are now) that they were unable to fill until Magic's arrival in in '79 and Worthy's arrival in '82. That's not to say the didn't have stars in their line-up, they had Kareem and Silk (Jamaal Wilkes), Cooper was a rookie and Norm Nixon was good, but they were pretty thin after that. The Lakers actually improved from 47 wins to 60 in Magic's first season and only once (excluding the 80/81 season when he only played 32 games) fell below 55 wins during Magic's career.

Regarding the Bird/Magic debate, I'd like to add my two cents, but firstly I should state that I am a Laker fan, and when I included my top 20 players of all-time to this thread I listed Magic at #1, but that decision was based on having seen Magic's entire career, some of it live at the LA Forum (we had season tickets Magic's rookie year and also went to the games when my father was relocated to LA at other times during the '80's) and numerous other stadiums across the USA, and saw hundreds of games on TV during the eighties and later on video and DVD. Because the Lakers great rival at the time was Boston, I have also seen a lot of Larry Bird's games.

Larry Bird is the finest Small Forward I have ever seen, but I wouldn't call him a 'natural' basketballer, he did have some deficiencies, he wasn't as quick or athletic as some of the finest players of his day, but what he lacked physically he made up for in other areas, he is probaly the smartest basketballer that has ever played the game. Statisically Bird's career looks better than Magic's, but statisics can be misleading. From the day Bird walked into the Boston Gardens the Celtics were his team, while early in Magic's career he didn't have the burden of being the team's #1 scoring option which is why his scoring average is 5ppg lower than Bird's. The teams style of play was also fashioned around Bird's and Magic's personalities, Boston's style of play was tough and methodical with Bird making the most of every opportunity, while the Lakers "showtime" style of play was up-tempo and flashy, which lead to numerous fast breaks opportunities every game, mostly instigated by Magic but involving numerous players and passes that didn't end up in Magic's assist tally, which (unfortunately for Magic assists are recorded against the player who makes the final pass and not the person who instigates the play. Obvious I know) should be 2-3apg higher than the already impressive 11.2apg. When the Lakers (finally) became Magic's team in the mid eighties, his averages were closer to 23ppg and 12.5apg, the Lakers were also consistantly winning 60+ games during the regular season and Magic dominated the MVP voting winning his 3 MVP awards over a four year span.

The two things that elevate Magic above Bird for me are:
We have seen the likes of Larry Bird before, they weren't good as him, but the blueprint was there in previous decades. I remember hearing some people in the States early in his career calling him John Havilcek version 2, an improved version of a Celtic legend.
I listed Magic at #1 because he was not only the finest basketballer I have seen, but a basketballer like no other. The NBA had never seen a player like him before, and hasn't really seen one since, a 6'9" PG who could play every position when required, who dominated and revolutionised his position and who was a major piece in the most beautiful style of basketball I've seen, SHOWTIME.
The other reason is the titles won. Generally I'm not big fan of using titles to compare players, because in most cases it used to compare players from different era's but this case is the execption, both started in 1979/80 and both finished in the early '90's. Magic won 5 titles in total, and 2 against Boston, while Bird won 3 titles and only 1 against the Lakers. On the biggest stage in the biggest games, Magic shaded Bird more times when it counted most.

I agree with you Devo... Magic shades Bird. But he isnt better than MJ. You're just being silly

 

[flight23]

really great read on Magic V Bird mate cheers for that, really enjoyed it