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Stats like that are misleading. Averages are more accurate. That stat just says that he played for a LONG time.
Your Top 20 NBA players of all time - nbaman edition!
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Stats like that are misleading. Averages are more accurate. That stat just says that he played for a LONG time.
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...and kept up a high level of performance for a very long time. Short bursts of high stats are equally misleading.
Here's something interesting for you jod23. You say Shaq wasn't clutch? Think again.
Most Points Per 4th Quarter
NBA Finals Past 20 Seasons
1995 Shaquille O'Neal 11.5
2000 Shaquille O'Neal 11.5
1997 Michael Jordan 10.7
2011 Dirk Nowitzki 10.3
1993 Michael Jordan 10.3
Most Points Per 4th Quarter
NBA Finals Past 20 Seasons
1995 Shaquille O'Neal 11.5
2000 Shaquille O'Neal 11.5
1997 Michael Jordan 10.7
2011 Dirk Nowitzki 10.3
1993 Michael Jordan 10.3
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Didnt say Shaq wasnt clutch, just that you cant rely on him in the last 2 mins of a game. His FT% is horrible.
Hakeem is a better player. Just.
Hakeem is a better player. Just.
peternorth
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Yeah, you might want to add Bob Pettit to your list
Nup he's not a better player than anyone I've listed.
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You can only really go on stats when you're looking at players from that era and his were mind-blowing.
nbaman1 said:
Better than KG
To beat Russells Celtics in '56 NBA Finals is one thing, another being 10x All-NBA 1st Team during his illustrious 11 year career. Add to that 2x MVP Regular and 3x MVP All-Star and BOOM, top 20 worthy! Probs even better than Chuck as well...
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One of only five to average 20+ rebounds over a season. Also the first to average 30+ points I think.
It's quite hilarious to see some of the lists in here and realize how overrated Magic Johnson is, along with Hakeem. Then you have Kobe who is underrated by many on here, maybe due to the fact he is still playing and not as romanticized as other players.
Go find news articles from back in the day, and you wont find anyone rating Magic Johnson above Bird. For good reason to, because they weren't close as players. Bird was far superior. In fact it was Bird being called the greatest player ever at the time. Johnson never got that praise. It was only after everything he went through, and the fact he is in the media all the time and made himself more accessible to people that somehow he rose on peoples lists above Bird.
Anyway, my list...
1. Michael Jordan
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. KAJ
4. Larry Bird
5. Bill Russell
6. Shaquille O'neal
7. Magic Johnson
8. Kobe Bryant
9. Tim Duncan
10. Hakeem Olajuwon
11. Jerry West
12. Oscar Robertson
13. Elgin Baylor
14. Moses Malone
15. Julius Erving
16. Havliceck
17. Karl Malone
18. Isiah Thomas
19. Kevin Garnett
20. Lebron James
Go find news articles from back in the day, and you wont find anyone rating Magic Johnson above Bird. For good reason to, because they weren't close as players. Bird was far superior. In fact it was Bird being called the greatest player ever at the time. Johnson never got that praise. It was only after everything he went through, and the fact he is in the media all the time and made himself more accessible to people that somehow he rose on peoples lists above Bird.
Anyway, my list...
1. Michael Jordan
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. KAJ
4. Larry Bird
5. Bill Russell
6. Shaquille O'neal
7. Magic Johnson
8. Kobe Bryant
9. Tim Duncan
10. Hakeem Olajuwon
11. Jerry West
12. Oscar Robertson
13. Elgin Baylor
14. Moses Malone
15. Julius Erving
16. Havliceck
17. Karl Malone
18. Isiah Thomas
19. Kevin Garnett
20. Lebron James
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So you rant about Hakeem Olajuwon being overrated yet you put him at 10th which is just about where everybody else had him?
Dont even get me started on Magic Johnson. Have you ever watched basketball before. The guy was a freak. You say Bird was better? Bird won 3 rings, Magic got 5.
No Scottie Pippen in your top 20 is also insulting.
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Pippen isn't a lock for top 20 by any stretch. In the mix, sure, but not close to a lock.
He's in that group of guys (Barkley, KG, Thomas, Stockton etc) where you can make a strong case for any of them.
He's in that group of guys (Barkley, KG, Thomas, Stockton etc) where you can make a strong case for any of them.
A lot of people had Hakeem over Shaq and even other great players.
Scottie won 6 rings, Magic won 5. I guess Scottie was better than Magic since he won more and played both sides of the court. Right?
As a basketball player Magic has no case over Bird. None. Go watch tape, go read articles, go listen to what other players had to say at the time. Bird was the better defender, although neither were too great, and he was the better offensive player.
Just because one player won more than another doesn't mean he was far and away better. Hardly anyone rates Russell as a better player than Jordan, and even when they do, everyone gives them a dirty look.
Bird, along with Wilt and Jordan are the only players I can ever remember getting the praise of being called the best ever during their playing days. That speaks volumes.
Do you realize Bird added 32 wins to the team in his rookie season. He took them to 61 wins from 29... Magic was blessed to be on a stacked team from the get go.
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I think jod's return argument will be along the lines of "But Magic was Magic Johnson. Magic. Johnson."
I don't get this Scottie Pippen love.
Jordan made him look good.
Dominique Wilkins is a FAR better player and he get no accolades because he played the majority of his career with a low profile team.
Jordan made him look good.
Dominique Wilkins is a FAR better player and he get no accolades because he played the majority of his career with a low profile team.
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Hahah this is a joke right?
I love 'Nique. Balls deep scorer who could fill it up at any given moment. Fantastic athlete and great dunker. But better that Scottie Pippen is hilarious.
In Jordan's first retirement. Pretty much the same team but without MJ, Pippen led the bulls to a 55-27 record, and to the Eastern Conference Semi Finals where they lost a tough 7 game series to the Knicks.
Pippen on the season averaged 22.0ppg, 8.7rpg, 5.6apg and 2.9spg. MVP type numbers, almost LeBron James type numbers. Probably the best small defender with Jordan the game has ever seen. Could defend almost anyone. Dominque was good, Scottie was great.
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Well you're barking up the wrong tree with Olajuwon for me, cos im one of those who thinks on pure basketball ability, that he is a better player than Shaq.
How does Magic have no case over Bird? Bird was the better defender but both werent defensive greats. Bird was also the better offensive player too, Magic was no slouch and could score when he wanted and when he needed to. Bird was a great passer of the ball. Magic was the greatest passer of the ball ive ever seen. I do realize that Bird came in and lifted the Celtics up but you cant use that as an argument to hold over Magic. Had Magic joined a poor team, im sure the + wins column would have gone up greatly too because he is one of the best players to ever play. Obviously it didnt go up much cos he already joined a stacked team.
Whether Magic was blessed to join an already good team doesnt matter as Boston very quickly got very good with Parish, McHale, Ainge, Johnson etc
Also Bird in his rookie season improved the Celtics immeasurably but Magic Johnson as a rookie, Kareem injured, 1980 NBA Finals, away from home, game 6. Starts at C, plays almost every position, scores 42 points, grabs 15 rebounds and dishes out 7 dimes. The guy is a freak of nature. I have him just in front of Bird.
Looking back im pretty sure I had BIrd at 6 and Magic at 2. But I think the guys i had 2-6 being Magic, Russell, Wilt, Oscar and Bird. Well their is so little between those guys.
In what way is Hakeem a better basketball player than Shaq? Shaq is a better scorer, and with his size and physical presence you could argue that alone was one of the greatest defensive tactics ever. Who's gonna drive on Shaq? It's the exact same reason we don't see Lebron James posterize anyone these days; no one wants to get in the way of him driving to the basket.
Anyway, back to the original debate...
I'm not sure if you know at the time, but Magic said coming out of college that he'd only leave for the NBA if he was guaranteed to play with Kareem. So, the man was guaranteed a stack team coming out of college... Which is why I hated the backlash when Lebron decided to join my Heat, and it was particularly funny coming from Magic saying he 'wouldn't have done that back in the day'... Well Magic, you kinda did.
Bird was the rookie of the year that year, and as for that game, it's hilarious the notion that has followed with it. Magic didn't play center that game. He took the jump ball and guarded the center on a few possessions, mainly on switches. If we're going to play that game, Lebron played every position on the court just this last game. He guarded Garnett a lot, and he took the jump balls. His 45/15/5 game should get similar love for being all over the court at every position, no?
I'm not a Laker fan, I'm not a Celtic fan, I'm completely unbiased on the matter. I know which player was better, and I know how Magic came to be viewed as better.
My point is, go back and listen to what the basketball community was saying as they were playing, even ending their careers... Bird was considered better. Bird didn't do much to stay in the limelight where as Magic has continued to be around the basketball community constantly on the television. You also have the Kobe vs Michael debate, which has impacted how people see Bird and Magic. Some how now it's all about championships that makes the better player when you get to that level of players.
2 championships won't ever change my mind, just like if Kobe gets 8 championships I'm not going to rate him above Michael. Because he wasn't better. Both great, but one better than the other.
I also find it interesting that people rate John Stockton over the likes of other great point guards like Thomas, Payton and Nash.
I've never found the appeal in his game, and he was very limited offensively. I think he's only scored over 30 points in a game something like 8 times in his career. He could only hurt you on the court in so many ways, where as guys like Payton, Thomas and Nash could score in spades, and also distribute the ball just as well, particularly Thomas and Nash.
I've never found the appeal in his game, and he was very limited offensively. I think he's only scored over 30 points in a game something like 8 times in his career. He could only hurt you on the court in so many ways, where as guys like Payton, Thomas and Nash could score in spades, and also distribute the ball just as well, particularly Thomas and Nash.
No love for Kidd? He's better than Payton and Nash in my opinion.
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