Analysis Youth and Pol Pot crazies

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Sorry mate but I just don't accept that.

Oh :(

I believe we are where we deserve to be ...

Completely agree with that! :thumbsu:

... and that for the club to improve we must accept that ...

Completely agree with that too! :thumbsu:

First step to improving is to take responsibility for our position

... and get angry about it.

This is where we start to diverge.

What does getting angry achieve?

The only point of getting angry is when somebody has screwed up, and that person really should know better. Or when somebody has a bad attitude.

If you reckon Buckley (or anybody else at the club) has screwed up and justifies your wrath, then fair enough.

Personally, I don't see that there is any point putting Buckley under more pressure than he is already under.

I don't see any point to putting young players like DeGoey, Marsh, Maynard, Moore, Langdon, Ramsay, Scharenberg, Witts, Grundy or Crisp under any more pressure than they're putting on themselves. They're learning, they need breathing space. The need a bit of freedom to make mistakes, that's all part of the learning process.

Of the senior players Swan and Varcoe have been pulling their weight. For all of Cloke's frustrations he has clearly stepped up this year and is coming of age (even if it is a bit overdue). Reid and Greenwood need space to find their form again.

Who needs a kick up the backside? Pendlebury for one. As the captain he carries some responsibility. He needs to work harder to make those around him better. It's not enough to be the best you can be if that doesn't influence others. IMHO Pendlebury needs to be less of a Buckley-style captain and more of a Maxwell-style captain.

I still support Buckley as coach but it is now linked to a significant rise in ladder position next season.

Personally I think you're set for a bit of disappointment.

I just don't see how we can rise up the ladder next year with so many young players already in our team, with Freeman yet to debut, and a bunch of young players to break back in (Ramsay, Oxley ...)
 
Oh :(



Completely agree with that! :thumbsu:



Completely agree with that too! :thumbsu:

First step to improving is to take responsibility for our position



This is where we start to diverge.

What does getting angry achieve?

The only point of getting angry is when somebody has screwed up, and that person really should know better. Or when somebody has a bad attitude.

If you reckon Buckley (or anybody else at the club) has screwed up and justifies your wrath, then fair enough.

Personally, I don't see that there is any point putting Buckley under more pressure than he is already under.

I don't see any point to putting young players like DeGoey, Marsh, Maynard, Moore, Langdon, Ramsay, Scharenberg, Witts, Grundy or Crisp under any more pressure than they're putting on themselves. They're learning, they need breathing space. The need a bit of freedom to make mistakes, that's all part of the learning process.

Of the senior players Swan and Varcoe have been pulling their weight. For all of Cloke's frustrations he has clearly stepped up this year and is coming of age (even if it is a bit overdue). Reid and Greenwood need space to find their form again.

Who needs a kick up the backside? Pendlebury for one. As the captain he carries some responsibility. He needs to work harder to make those around him better. It's not enough to be the best you can be if that doesn't influence others. IMHO Pendlebury needs to be less of a Buckley-style captain and more of a Maxwell-style captain.



Personally I think you're set for a bit of disappointment.

I just don't see how we can rise up the ladder next year with so many young players already in our team, with Freeman yet to debut, and a bunch of young players to break back in (Ramsay, Oxley ...)

Anger is probably the wrong word mate but if you think that another non-finals appearance will be accepted by supporters then you are mistaken. Maybe that is unfair but it is the reality. We are building a promising list but any advances made this year have been undone by the insipid finish to the year. The pressure will be on next year.
 

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May 7, 2011
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Anger is probably the wrong word mate but if you think that another non-finals appearance will be accepted by supporters then you are mistaken. Maybe that is unfair but it is the reality. We are building a promising list but any advances made this year have been undone by the insipid finish to the year. The pressure will be on next year.
I really don't see how it can't be.
 

Wooljay

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Anger is probably the wrong word mate but if you think that another non-finals appearance will be accepted by supporters then you are mistaken. Maybe that is unfair but it is the reality. We are building a promising list but any advances made this year have been undone by the insipid finish to the year. The pressure will be on next year.

Why we do we think we're entitled to finals because we're Collingwood?

We're the biggest and best club in Australia, but it doesn't mean we're immune to football cycles.

With equalisation ramped up to 11 it ensures a cyclical football cycle of boom and bust. We're flattening out of bust (or are peak-busting?) and it's up from 2015.

There are 17 other clubs clawing their way towards finals, Collingwood doesn't exist in a vacuum.
 
Anger is probably the wrong word mate ...

Fair enough

... but if you think that another non-finals appearance will be accepted by supporters ...

I didn't say that!

I don't know if it will or if it won't be accepted by the supporters. As a supporter I'm reconciled to it happening, regardless of who our coach is.

Perhaps a couple of people who do need to step up are Pert and Ed ... They need to do a better job of managing expectations. I accept they have a difficult job - managing expectations of the supporter base and the same time as creating goals for the playing group to strive for. That can be challenging. But that's their job, and that's what's expected of the positions they hold.

... then you are mistaken.

I do hope Buckley is around for at least a few more seasons yet.

Maybe that is unfair but it is the reality.

I don't think it matters what's fair or unfair.

What matters is results - and I just don't see that putting our senior coach under more pressure will get us better results. I don't see that changing senior coach will get us better results either.

We are building a promising list ...

Indeed!

...but any advances made this year have been undone by the insipid finish to the year.

I think that's a tad harsh ...

We have had such an exciting year with first year players with Moore, DeGoey and Maynard? Add to that second year debutants Scharenberg and Marsh. Add to that "coming of age" of players like Oxley, Ramsay and Broomhead.

What previous year was anywhere near as good as that?

When was the last time we had such an exciting year with players we've traded in? (Crisp, Varcoe, Greenwood). Arguably 2010 (Ball, Jolly ... and er, um Simon Buckley) . Let's not forget it wasn't so long ago many were calling for Hine to be sacked for his poor recruitment of mature age players!

The pressure will be on next year.

Yeah, you may be right.

Apart from a few exceptions (leadership group, some mature age players) I just think that would be counter productive.
 
Fair enough



I didn't say that!

I don't know if it will or if it won't be accepted by the supporters. As a supporter I'm reconciled to it happening, regardless of who our coach is.

Perhaps a couple of people who do need to step up are Pert and Ed ... They need to do a better job of managing expectations. I accept they have a difficult job - managing expectations of the supporter base and the same time as creating goals for the playing group to strive for. That can be challenging. But that's their job, and that's what's expected of the positions they hold.



I do hope Buckley is around for at least a few more seasons yet.



I don't think it matters what's fair or unfair.

What matters is results - and I just don't see that putting our senior coach under more pressure will get us better results. I don't see that changing senior coach will get us better results either.



Indeed!



I think that's a tad harsh ...

We have had such an exciting year with first year players with Moore, DeGoey and Maynard? Add to that second year debutants Scharenberg and Marsh. Add to that "coming of age" of players like Oxley, Ramsay and Broomhead.

What previous year was anywhere near as good as that?

When was the last time we had such an exciting year with players we've traded in? (Crisp, Varcoe, Greenwood). Arguably 2010 (Ball, Jolly ... and er, um Simon Buckley) . Let's not forget it wasn't so long ago many were calling for Hine to be sacked for his poor recruitment of mature age players!



Yeah, you may be right.

Apart from a few exceptions (leadership group, some mature age players) I just think that would be counter productive.

The expectations created by Ed and Pert were ridiculous. Bucks must be hoping they butt out next year.
 
Jul 21, 2008
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Let me tiptoe my response, for fear of losing my place in your affections. I had suspected that you felt nothing (good) for me, but if you feel something more for me than you do for BJ, then let me not be banished from thy heart.

The whole premise of your post suggests that we've recruited players who can't hit targets by foot. For some players this is unfortunately correct, but overall the premise of your post is wrong. We have some excellent kicks at our club: Pendlebury (except when he shoots for goal), Sidebottom, Crisp, Oxley, Fasolo (not lately, but generally), Elliott (see Fasolo), Reid, Broomhead, Moore, De Goey, Scharenberg etc. These are players who kick well, and they're not alone. And while Hawthorn are certainly the benchmark, don't you see that even they have players who sometimes struggle to hit targets? From Frawley to Suckling, they have a number of players who are far from 'elite' by foot. Even Gunston seems to be having some difficulty in kicking for goal, or at least he considerably more unreliable than he once was.

My point is that the apparent kicking skills of a list can't be viewed in isolation from other factors: game plan, the youth/inexperience of players which undercuts their ability to kick under pressure (or to deal with fatigue at AFL level) etc. We could always use more elite talent (like Treloar), but I don't accept the notion that a skills deficit can explain our current woes.

My apologies for the smarmy tone at the start of this post. Some of us have been a bit snippy in here of late, and I'm not looking to deliberately antagonise people. :thumbsu:
Some of the players in your list can kick but are unreliable players e.g. Fasolo, Oxley, Scharenburg (most unlikely to be around next year). Elliott goes missing too often against the best sides but I make no argument about his skills, which are fine, as are Broomheads when he gets the ball. Ramsey is a better kick than Toovey or Williams, and a better defensive prospect. He has become the mystery player of 2015 - now you seem now you don't. Where has he been been?
 
The expectations created by Ed and Pert were ridiculous. Bucks must be hoping they butt out next year.

Could have been worse ...

... "it's very very difficult to see were we're going to lose a game" :p :p :p :oops:
 
Ramsey is a better kick than Toovey or Williams, and a better defensive prospect. He has become the mystery player of 2015 - now you seem now you don't. Where has he been been?

Stress fracture in the lower leg apparently. Seems like a long time to be out for that!
 
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Let me tiptoe my response, for fear of losing my place in your affections. I had suspected that you felt nothing (good) for me, but if you feel something more for me than you do for BJ, then let me not be banished from thy heart.

My apologies for the smarmy tone at the start of this post. Some of us have been a bit snippy in here of late, and I'm not looking to deliberately antagonise people. :thumbsu:
I enjoyed the playful then apologetic tone of the bookends to your post. I do believe you won just the tiniest place in my heart, a cavernous darkish sort of hole of a place, but nonetheless a spot you might dare to call your own own. You are already a more welcome intruder than BJ. ;)
 
Some of the players in your list can kick but are unreliable players e.g. Fasolo, Oxley, Scharenburg (most unlikely to be around next year). Elliott goes missing too often against the best sides but I make no argument about his skills, which are fine, as are Broomheads when he gets the ball. Ramsey is a better kick than Toovey or Williams, and a better defensive prospect. He has become the mystery player of 2015 - now you seem now you don't. Where has he been been?

What you say there is right, that players have been exceedingly poor by foot, and even players who have the skill haven't been in the habit of putting those skills on display. But I think this emphasises the point I was making: Collingwood haven't set out to recruit butchers, and on the contrary will have a good spread of talent, but the talent just isn't shining at the moment.

I've enjoyed seeing Marley Williams this year, not least because his kicking has become far more reliable than in the past. Ramsay is injured and won't be around for the rest of the year, from what I understand.
 
I enjoyed the playful then apologetic tone of the bookends to your post. I do believe you won just the tiniest place in my heart, a cavernous darkish sort of hole of a place, but nonetheless a spot you might dare to call your own own. You are already a more welcome intruder than BJ. ;)

This dank and dark place you mention has all the hallmarks of a grave, or at least a place more shadowy than your kinder graces, but the beggar that I am can't afford to be too dubious.
 

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Id argue GWS went past us this season and they are only going to get better. We won't beat them for a long time now.

This team has been built to kill so it will hardly be a surprise for crying out loud. Pour a mountain of gold over someone for 5 years and I'm sure they won't be getting around with the arse hanging out the back of their pants.
 

Countrypie

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Doggies youth is good, but morris, boyd and murphy dont have a lot of footy left. 2 years tops i reckon. I still think those 3 are the backbone of the side.
Precisely - this is what we lack right now. Against Richmond our starting defence was perhaps the youngest we've fielded in twenty years. then we sent Reid back there and to be honest Reid just needs to play ten games to get his head back in the game. Put a couple of wise heads back there and the whole thing stiffens up. We need experienced quality defensive leaders. Toovey is OK, but he's no leader. Goldsack is much underrated in this regard and Brown has been outstanding this year. Strangely it may be one reason to roll the dice and keep Young on the list. A back line that contains Frost, Langdon, SInclair, Maynard and Marsh all at once is just too inexperienced
 

wicksy

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Well one thing I'd say about the Dogs youth is they brought in some fairly hard bodied young players which we haven't done. Stringer Wallis Bontempelli McCrae probably only DeGoey you can compare to big talent like that.

Freeman, Maynard, Abbott, Ramsay, Grundy to that list thanks.
 

THATSGOLD

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This team has been built to kill so it will hardly be a surprise for crying out loud. Pour a mountain of gold over someone for 5 years and I'm sure they won't be getting around with the arse hanging out the back of their pants.
So premiership talk is hog wash given what we will be competing against. That's what everyone forgets. The oppostion. How good they are.
 
So premiership talk is hog wash given what we will be competing against. That's what everyone forgets. The oppostion. How good they are.

It's hard, it's going to be hard because the AFL want GWS to succeed. Do you think we will be better than GWS because we want to be better? I don't quite get your point.
 
I will try and find you a place with just a touch more light.:)

Let me request a room with a view of some rolling hills, and maybe the hint of the sea upon a gentle breeze, and the sound of a football game being played somewhere in the distance. Maybe the room right above the dungeon where you've stowed BJ? :)
 
Jul 21, 2008
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Let me request a room with a view of some rolling hills, and maybe the hint of the sea upon a gentle breeze, and the sound of a football game being played somewhere in the distance. Maybe the room right above the dungeon where you've stowed BJ? :)
The room you request sounds rather idyllic. Should there be such a place in my heart, I may install some part of myself there rather than sub-let to outsiders. As for BJ, any form of accommodation in my heart, even a dungeon, is more than I could bear. Total banishment from my person is the fate that he must bear.
 
The room you request sounds rather idyllic. Should there be such a place in my heart, I may install some part of myself there rather than sub-let to outsiders. As for BJ, any form of accommodation in my heart, even a dungeon, is more than I could bear. Total banishment from my person is the fate that he must bear.

Not sure what BJ did, but yes, sometimes it's better to exile or exorcise the things which antagonise us. :thumbsu:
 
Jul 21, 2008
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Not sure what BJ did, but yes, sometimes it's better to exile or exorcise the things which antagonise us. :thumbsu:
But not ignore. I have no one on ignore. And it is not just what people do but what they seem to be that irritates at times.

I actually quite enjoy being on an ignore list. I can say what I like and the ignoree is none the wiser. Unless of course someone quotes me.
 
But not ignore. I have no one on ignore. And it is not just what people do but what they seem to be that irritates at times.

I actually quite enjoy being on an ignore list. I can say what I like and the ignoree is none the wiser. Unless of course someone quotes me.

No, I can't think that I'd put someone on ignore either, not unless they were determinedly hounding me with deep pessimism, blinding optimism, or cheap funeral plans.

I'm not sure if I'm being (officially) ignored by others. I like to think that I'm an inoffensive sort of contributor, although I know that diplomacy fails me from time to time.
 

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