YR2000 stats on Hird!

[CHF]

Here are some yr2000 stats on Hird (pony-boy) to set the record straight.

MIDFIELDERS-
Player Avg pos. Avg goals.
Buckley 30 1.4
West 29 0.3
Ratten 28 1.0
Camporeale 28 1.2
Ricciuto 27 1.3
Kouta 26 1.8
HIRD 22 1.8

CHF-
Player Marks Goals
Whittnal 208 70
Carey 176 69
Holland 196 51
HIRD 115 36

So Walshy1993, Dutchman, Eastaugh36, take your pick.
Hird is either a pretend CHF or 2nd rate MIDFIELDER.

P.S. stats are courtesy of the AFL web site.

 

[CHF]

Carey v Hird for yr2000

Player_____Pos Marks Goals
Hird_______439 115 ___36
Carey______422 176 ___69

Hird
-Licence to chase kicks when he pleases.
-An "aerobic machine".
Gathers 439 possessions.

Carey
-Couldn't run.
-Played half the time from the goal square.
-His worst season.

Still manages to gather the same amount of possesions than that midfield machine-Hird. Not to mention a heap more marks and goals.

Only father time will stop the KINGs reign. James Hird definitely wont!

Cup-Half-Full.

P.S. stats are courtesy of the AFL web site.

 

[sabre_ac]

Im certainly no bombers supporter.

But your completely missing the point.
He doesnt play mid field every game nor for the entire game nor does he do the same for chf.

Hence his stats need to be taken in terms of how long he played there in games.Not over a standard 22 games.Once your stats have been adjusted you will see he is the champion that everyone says he is.Well maybe not as good as what dan and walshy say but a champion none the less.

Whats more how many of those "top" center half forwards and mid field players can play both positions effectively.That alone points out his versitility.

By the way you left out waterhouse

 

[CHF]

I agree with you sabre_ac

James pony-boy Hird is a versatile player.
I'll even admit he's a very good player.
But you can't tell me that the likes of
Kouta,
Buckley and
Carey
are not versatile in their own right.
but the difference with these guys and Hird is-
1. Hirds stats don't match up to them.
2. the other guys tend to stay in a single position because they continually dominate in that position. They don't decide to have a run on the ball just because they are not getting a kick.

Hird is not good enough to just be a midfielder, and is not good enough to just be a CHF. Therefore he has to play a utility type role to be effective.

Cup-Half-Full.

 

[Dan26]

Hird played, I think, 17 home and away games. In these games, he usually came off at three-quarter time. In terms of playing time over 22 weeks, he probably only played about 2/3rd's of the season in terms of minutes.

The best way to assess Hird's value is to go to the ground and watch him play.

[This message has been edited by Dan24 (edited 14 December 2000).]

 

[Carey_is_King]

CHF,
You really are a stirrer aren't you ?
You are correct of course, but club loyalties prevail, and many people can't (or don't want to) see how shy Hird is of the physical contest. He has the skills, no doubt, but chases too many easy kicks for my liking.

------------------
Trample the Weak,
Hurdle the Dead.

 

[FF]

You forgot

Norm Smith medal
Year 2000 premiership captain

Suufer F*****t

 

[Frodo]

Different types of player for sure and seeing them is the ONLY way to judge. What do stats prove? Very little indeed. A punch out, a shepherd, a run that takes a key defender away, a 50m run from the half back line that creates a goal. All without stats. But marking an easy kick out. Having the ball tapped to you by a brilliant ruckman etc all are counted stats.
Funny, it seems the umpires believe that the stats mean everything too, with their Brownlow votes

 

[Carey_is_King]

Originally posted by FF:
You forgot

Norm Smith medal
Year 2000 premiership captain

Suufer F*****t

Thank you for your carefully considered response FF. Did you learn that one in the unemployment line ? (It's suffer, by the way.)



------------------
Trample the Weak,
Hurdle the Dead.

 

[walshy1993]

how about a stat on brownlow votes

 

[FF]

Carey
Was I talking to you. Butt out.
sorry about the typo didn't mean to upset you.

Good match against Essendon by Norff last finals by the way. Still upsetting you is it?

 

[Carey_is_King]

Originally posted by FF:
Carey
Was I talking to you. Butt out.
sorry about the typo didn't mean to upset you.

Good match against Essendon by Norff last finals by the way. Still upsetting you is it?

I would be lying if I said it wasn't. Still, I am more upset about giving the Crows the '98 flag on a plate.

------------------
Trample the Weak,
Hurdle the Dead.

 

[Rooboy 96]

I am always away when these great topics begin...

Sometimes a topic just reaches out and grabs you... but I will try like hell not to upset to many of my Essendon friends... but in my humble and honest opinion Carey is worth 3 Hirds easily...

Long live the King...

Dan if it pisses you off I don't give a rats...

 

[The Dutchman!]

Rooboy

As you know I have a good deal of respect for your views...

But lay off the sauce on this one big fella...

Brain Half Full

As Sabre began to point out, the only player appearing on both those lists - ie: key midfielder and CHF is JH - in the same season. No offence but you'd have to be a bit slow not to see that you're actually confirmed the JH argument for us while trying to bring the man down (bizarre!).

The only other guy that I think could potentially play in both positions - ie: cover the distances, take the physical punishment and still dominate is Kouta - but the guys had one decent season in 5 years so lets see how he comes back from injury...

Dan is also correct in stating that Hird played a slightly reduced season - wait til next year on Hird's total stats...

Also, no offence again Rooboy & Shinner, but the reason that Carey picks up the stats is that North is a bit of a one avenue to goal team and hence they pretty much always look for Carey - they have to... JH on the other hand played at least this year in a star studded forward and midfield structure, played for 2/3s of the season, still got the dominant combined midfield & foward stats AND won the Norm Smith as Premiership Captain - in the process making the Brownlow winner look a little average....

Cheers
Dutchy

Ps. I remember having a long discussion about a year ago on BomberTalk with Dan of all people about the use of Stats without any consideration of context or intelligence... ring any bells Dan?

PPS. No offence to the Dees fan on the Woewodin reference, he did what he could on a bad day for the club and IS a pretty useful player.

 

[The Dutchman!]

What were Carey's midfield stat's like - ie: centre breaks, hard ball gets etc BHF?

Sorry, trick question....

Ps. North fans I'm not having a go at you or your great champion - I'm just pointing out the stupidity of comparing oranges and apples to the mentally challenged...

 

[Grendel]

Got me convinced CHF by your convincing arguments.

Essendon dont need that show pony, sent him over to Hawthorn, we love showponies!

Hell he would be right at home! Another dodgy midfielder, just what we need or an overated forward, we need them too! Media boy,blonde,what the #*^% is he doing not playing with us anyway??? Bloody conspiracy is what it is, lloyd should have been ours too! Why its gotta be salary cap rorting, and maipulation of the draft. Probably under the counter (at the McDonalds franchise all the Dons players own) payments in there too.

(You want fries with that?)

 

[The Dutchman!]

Just what was required to lighten the tone Grendel... well done mate!

 

[Cup_Half_Full]

Originally posted by The Dutchman!:


Brain Half Full

As Sabre began to point out, the only player appearing on both those lists - ie: key midfielder and CHF is JH - in the same season. No offence but you'd have to be a bit slow not to see that you're actually confirmed the JH argument for us while trying to bring the man down (bizarre!).

The only other guy that I think could potentially play in both positions - ie: cover the distances, take the physical punishment and still dominate is Kouta - but the guys had one decent season in 5 years so lets see how he comes back from injury...

Dan is also correct in stating that Hird played a slightly reduced season - wait til next year on Hird's total stats...

Also, no offence again Rooboy & Shinner, but the reason that Carey picks up the stats is that North is a bit of a one avenue to goal team and hence they pretty much always look for Carey - they have to... JH on the other hand played at least this year in a star studded forward and midfield structure, played for 2/3s of the season, still got the dominant combined midfield & foward stats AND won the Norm Smith as Premiership Captain - in the process making the Brownlow winner look a little average....

Cheers
Dutchy

Dutchman,

The only reason why JH is on both lists is because I put him there for comparison. Notice how he is on the bottom of both lists. Thats not a good thing, trust me.
Let me simplify it for you.

Buckley/Kouta have similar goal averages to Hird yet a much higher possesion average.
i.e. considering that Hird plays part of the time up forward he still only kicks the same amount of goals as the best midfielders.

Carey has similar possessions to JH yet many more marks and goals.
i.e considering that Hird plays part of the time in the midfield he still only gathers a similar amount of possessions as the best forward.

This suggests that in comparison to the best players in the AFL JH does NOT STACK UP!

Who is disputing Hird's versatility? It doesn't make him a champion though.
Call him the most versatile player in the AFL if you like.

Kouta has played 1 good season in the last 5.
Yeah, Hird's stat is much better. He has played 1 good season in the past 4.

You keep stating that Hird played less games than the others. Most would say that confirms his softness, but that's another issue. Do you understand the concept of averages? They take into account the variation in games played, yeah!...really!

Finally, I can understand your logic behind Carey getting so many stats.
Lets see,
-plays in the most difficult position on the field.
-He gets double/tripple teamed(because as you pointed out they know the ball is going to him).
-and,...um, I know I had another point...., oh yeah. He has carried an entire team on his back for the last f*#$ing decade!
Yeah, easy to win ball. As long as you are the f*$%ing greatest ever player to have played the game!

I got to hand it to you Dutchman. Your arse keeps hitting the canvas, but you always get back up to receive more punishment.
Your loyalty although irrational, is unquestioned.

Cup_Half_Full.

P.S. Remember this, half a brain is always better than s@*t-for-brains.

 

[The Dutchman]

1 question...

What is your point? Are you just saying you rate Hird behind Carey or something else?

Because if the latter then you may have a case - sure Hird's got the Brownlow and the Norm but no one doubt the efforts of WC. As noted over their careers the scales may even up but yeah WC holds it as present by a reasonable margin...

Or are you saying you don't rate the most skilled player since Dacios? Does anyone really question this? or one of the best and inspirational leaders in the game?

And if in doing so you rely on stats alone you are a 1st class fool - everyone who follows footy knows that stats tell only a part of the story - that negate to tell when vital possessions occured, relative brilliance involved, guts and leadership - I mean I would need two Buckleys to replace what Hird does at Essendon... no disrespect to Figjam who is a great player but he is way to selfish, not team orientated and poor leader.

Anyway, I just want you to clarify, in arse hitting the canvas terms whether you think Hird, a guy who has come back from career threatening foot injuries through undergoing radical hormone therapy, and : duel premiership player including incubent Premiership captain and Norm Smith mediallist and all Australian International series winning captain and, in last full season played - Brownlow medalist - is a champion or not...

Cos if you don't I think you'll be in club of one stats boys...

As I say, please, please, please do not go anywhere in the next few years...

 

[Carey_is_King]

I have been on the sidelines on this long enough. The Dutchman sees Hird as the most inspirational leader!!! For shits sake, what has he ever done to warrant that tag?? Sitting on the bench crying ?
Running off the ground after telling the ump his leg was too sore to kick the goal ?
Avoiding every pack situation so he can get the easy kick ?
Missing a game every time he has a hint of an injury?

Then I look at Carey;
Playing against two or three opponents every week.
Bursting packs and kicking inspirational goals.
Playing with injuries which would put lesser men in hospital.
Feeding the players around him.
Coaching the younger players on field.
Always first to back up a team mate.

Yeah, Hird's the most inspirational captain. What a joke.

------------------
Trample the Weak,
Hurdle the Dead.

 

[Dan26]

Look, both are champions.

Personally, I'd rather have Hird, because, like Carey, he is a leader, but he more versatile.

Hird is the most graceful, calmest handler of the football, I have ever seen. He is never rushed - the sign of a champion. He is a magnificent mark for his size and can play tall or small.

My measure of Hird is when the ball is in dispute and there are 2 players running for the ball, Hird will win the ball. His ability to read the play and win the hard-ball is second to none. Because Hird is so calm, composed and graceful, it "seems" that he lacks power, yet that is far from the truth.

Hird is one of the most inspirational leaders you will find. Off the field he sets a great example too. I've said it before, the Hird is the Michael Jordan of the AFL.

Carey is the Shaq. Sure, Shaq might win the odd MVP, and is the most important player in his team, but Hird is the Jordan. Hird is the best. (not of all time, just presently)

 

[The Dutchman!]

CIS

Go back and read my post again and tell me where:

1. I say that Hird is "the" most inspirational leader in the AFL. When you don't find it let me know.

2. I don't rate Carey a better and more influential player in their relative careers to this point. Because quite clearly I do.

Just to make it crytal clear, my last post was quite clearly designed to move the argument with BHF away from a Carey (near the end of an illustrious career and currently correctly considered one of maybe the top 3 players of all time) vs Hird comparison to simply asking BHF whether or not he thinks Hird (undisputed best player and captain in what is generally considered ONE of the best teams of all time) is a champion or not. Got it?

As to the ignorant view of hird not getting into packs I urge you (yet again...sigh) to watch the 2000 GF again - you don't win Norm Smiths for being a showpony mate....

Dutchy

 

[Grendel]

Dan, sorry cant let the M.Jordan ref go untouched (i know i should but i just cant).
Its a non sensical statement.

Jordan indisuptably the best basketcase... err basketballer ever (thats what theyre called in that silly game right?)or 2nd best at least. So you must then be saying Hirds the greatest footballer of all time? If not it seems that way. Its like saying hes the Bradman of the AFL, the Pele, the Babe etc etc. Anyway to label it like that you should know better.

Not even close, and i rate Hird highly.

Either call Hird the best player you have seen play *which is your right* but dont make silly comparisions to other people in other sports. But to call him the best of all time is a reach, even for you.

Cheers

 

[Carey_is_King]

Originally posted by The Dutchman:
1 question...

What is your point? Are you just saying you rate Hird behind Carey or something else?

Or are you saying you don't rate the most skilled player since Dacios? Does anyone really question this? or one of the best and inspirational leaders in the game?

As I say, please, please, please do not go anywhere in the next few years...

Dutchman,
Read above. Have I misinterpreted your meaning or grammar ? "Best and inspirational leaders in the game"
What's the issue ?

------------------
Trample the Weak,
Hurdle the Dead.

 

[Carey_is_King]

Originally posted by The Dutchman!:
CIS

Go back and read my post again and tell me where:

1. I say that Hird is "the" most inspirational leader in the AFL. When you don't find it let me know.

2. I don't rate Carey a better and more influential player in their relative careers to this point. Because quite clearly I do.

Just to make it crytal clear, my last post was quite clearly designed to move the argument with BHF away from a Carey (near the end of an illustrious career and currently correctly considered one of maybe the top 3 players of all time) vs Hird comparison to simply asking BHF whether or not he thinks Hird (undisputed best player and captain in what is generally considered ONE of the best teams of all time) is a champion or not. Got it?

As to the ignorant view of hird not getting into packs I urge you (yet again...sigh) to watch the 2000 GF again - you don't win Norm Smiths for being a showpony mate....

Dutchy

Dutchman,

I haven't, you will note, questioned Hird's skills - they are there for all to see. I have watched the 2000 GF and I remain unconvinced about his willingness to exert a physical influence on a game. I am biased, obviously, but I seriously find any comparison between Hird & Carey to be laughable. I will hang around as you suggest I should, in the hope that Hird can summon up something extra which will put him in Carey's class. Time is running out though.

------------------
Trample the Weak,
Hurdle the Dead.