- Banned
- #101
burnt lungs huh? so the air was that hot it did that? interesting, they must ahve used make up for the potrait then.Murray said:
Zarqawi dragged from ambulance and beaten to death by US soldiers?
- Thread starter just maybe
- Start date
- Tagged users None
CoggaRules said:burnt lungs huh? so the air was that hot it did that? interesting, they must ahve used make up for the potrait then.
actually, they claim it was tearing and bleeding of the lungs that killed him. Consistent with shock waves from exlosives.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,1796390,00.html
A local witness told al-Jazeera that US soldiers had tried to revive Zarqawi. "They were pressing on his chest, wanting him to speak or to respond, and they brought a bottle of water but he didn't take it," he said. Another witness claimed US troops had struck Zarqawi, but General George Casey, the top American commander in Iraq, dismissed that as "baloney".
The bombs demolished the house, but Zarqawi's body had no external injuries other than cuts and bruises. Colonel Steve Jones, the chief US military surgeon in Iraq, said: "There was extensive blast injury to the lungs, with bruising and disruption of the lung tissue."
"This wound was not immediately fatal," said Col Jones, who was present at the autopsy. "Death occurred as lung function deteriorated and the lungs became progressively unable to absorb oxygen into the bloodstream."
http://www.postchronicle.com/news/security/article_21222918.shtml
There is no evidence Zarqawi was beaten or died of gunshot wounds, two of the rumors that have swirled through the Internet in the wake of the June 7 strike.
"The scientific facts provide irrefutable evidence regarding the death of these terrorists, and will serve to counter speculation, misinformation and propaganda."
...
Zarqawi, however, died of blast injuries to his lungs.
"Blast waves from the two bombs caused tearing, bruising of the lungs and bleeding," Jones said. "This wound was not immediately fatal. Death occurred as lung function deteriorated, and the lungs became progressively unable to absorb oxygen into the bloodstream."
"The shockwave from the blast can rupture air-filled organs such as the ears, lungs and intestines. Those injuries are not obvious from looking at the external surface of the body. This type of injury is called primary blast injury and is what killed Zarqawi," Jones said.
"All the blood vessels inside the lung start rupturing and the blood is seeping into the tissue. And in the same time, the air bags or air sacs in the lung explode and form these cavities that also get filled with blood. So there's no exchange of air, and the person -- it depends on the strength of the blast wave -- either die immediately, die within minutes or die later, in hours. In this case, it was severe," Jones said.
...
"We have clear evidence that he died of blast injuries. There is no evidence to suggest that he was beaten, and I have no reason to suspect that that happened," Jones said.
http://www.bt.cdc.gov/masstrauma/explosions.asp
Explosions and Blast Injuries: A Primer for Clinicians
...
Blast lung is the most common fatal injury among initial survivors.
...
The four basic mechanisms of blast injury are termed as primary, secondary, tertiary, and quaternary.
Primary:
Body Part Affected: Gas filled structures are most susceptible - lungs, GI tract, and middle ear.
Types of Injuries: Blast lung (pulmonary barotrauma)
“Blast lung” is a direct consequence of the HE over-pressurization wave. It is the most common fatal primary blast injury among initial survivors. Signs of blast lung are usually present at the time of initial evaluation, but they have been reported as late as 48 hours after the explosion. Blast lung is characterized by the clinical triad of apnea, bradycardia, and hypotension. Pulmonary injuries vary from scattered petechae to confluent hemorrhages. Blast lung should be suspected for anyone with dyspnea, cough, hemoptysis, or chest pain following blast exposure. Blast lung produces a characteristic “butterfly” pattern on chest X-ray. A chest X-ray is recommended for all exposed persons and a prophylactic chest tube (thoracostomy) is recommended before general anesthesia or air transport is indicated if blast lung is suspected.
...
Clinical signs of blast-related abdominal injuries can be initially silent until signs of acute abdomen or sepsis are advanced.
A local witness told al-Jazeera that US soldiers had tried to revive Zarqawi. "They were pressing on his chest, wanting him to speak or to respond, and they brought a bottle of water but he didn't take it," he said. Another witness claimed US troops had struck Zarqawi, but General George Casey, the top American commander in Iraq, dismissed that as "baloney".
The bombs demolished the house, but Zarqawi's body had no external injuries other than cuts and bruises. Colonel Steve Jones, the chief US military surgeon in Iraq, said: "There was extensive blast injury to the lungs, with bruising and disruption of the lung tissue."
"This wound was not immediately fatal," said Col Jones, who was present at the autopsy. "Death occurred as lung function deteriorated and the lungs became progressively unable to absorb oxygen into the bloodstream."
http://www.postchronicle.com/news/security/article_21222918.shtml
There is no evidence Zarqawi was beaten or died of gunshot wounds, two of the rumors that have swirled through the Internet in the wake of the June 7 strike.
"The scientific facts provide irrefutable evidence regarding the death of these terrorists, and will serve to counter speculation, misinformation and propaganda."
...
Zarqawi, however, died of blast injuries to his lungs.
"Blast waves from the two bombs caused tearing, bruising of the lungs and bleeding," Jones said. "This wound was not immediately fatal. Death occurred as lung function deteriorated, and the lungs became progressively unable to absorb oxygen into the bloodstream."
"The shockwave from the blast can rupture air-filled organs such as the ears, lungs and intestines. Those injuries are not obvious from looking at the external surface of the body. This type of injury is called primary blast injury and is what killed Zarqawi," Jones said.
"All the blood vessels inside the lung start rupturing and the blood is seeping into the tissue. And in the same time, the air bags or air sacs in the lung explode and form these cavities that also get filled with blood. So there's no exchange of air, and the person -- it depends on the strength of the blast wave -- either die immediately, die within minutes or die later, in hours. In this case, it was severe," Jones said.
...
"We have clear evidence that he died of blast injuries. There is no evidence to suggest that he was beaten, and I have no reason to suspect that that happened," Jones said.
http://www.bt.cdc.gov/masstrauma/explosions.asp
Explosions and Blast Injuries: A Primer for Clinicians
...
Blast lung is the most common fatal injury among initial survivors.
...
The four basic mechanisms of blast injury are termed as primary, secondary, tertiary, and quaternary.
Primary:
Body Part Affected: Gas filled structures are most susceptible - lungs, GI tract, and middle ear.
Types of Injuries: Blast lung (pulmonary barotrauma)
“Blast lung” is a direct consequence of the HE over-pressurization wave. It is the most common fatal primary blast injury among initial survivors. Signs of blast lung are usually present at the time of initial evaluation, but they have been reported as late as 48 hours after the explosion. Blast lung is characterized by the clinical triad of apnea, bradycardia, and hypotension. Pulmonary injuries vary from scattered petechae to confluent hemorrhages. Blast lung should be suspected for anyone with dyspnea, cough, hemoptysis, or chest pain following blast exposure. Blast lung produces a characteristic “butterfly” pattern on chest X-ray. A chest X-ray is recommended for all exposed persons and a prophylactic chest tube (thoracostomy) is recommended before general anesthesia or air transport is indicated if blast lung is suspected.
...
Clinical signs of blast-related abdominal injuries can be initially silent until signs of acute abdomen or sepsis are advanced.
- Banned
- #104
NMWBloods said:
hmmm, ok that is all in order, they have explained in the finest detail how a blast can effect the lungs, but they havent explained in detail how a blast can not effect your face from flying debris, shrapnel etc.
Furthermore, how many were in that house? Would be interesting to see what injuries the others died of, dont you think?
Lets not lose sight of this NMW, "Air Force F-16 warplanes fired two 500-pound bombs on a house, reducing it to rubble". Now I would be tipping there are a few more causes of death to deal with, than shockwaves from the blast, tearing lungs apart, dont you think? 500 + 500 = 1 ton, of explosives on a house? LMAO, man you must be as simple as to gobble the sh-ite they come up with.
I mean, a car bomb with a few pounds of the stuff goes off and there are legs and arms everywhere, but a ton of it tears lungs apart from shockwaves? geez man, now i understand why we have who have leading the country.
Blast lung is the most common fatal injury among initial survivors.CoggaRules said:hmmm, ok that is all in order, they have explained in the finest detail how a blast can effect the lungs, but they havent explained in detail how a blast can not effect your face from flying debris, shrapnel etc.
Furthermore, how many were in that house? Would be interesting to see what injuries the others died of, dont you think?
Lets not lose sight of this NMW, "Air Force F-16 warplanes fired two 500-pound bombs on a house, reducing it to rubble". Now I would be tipping there are a few more causes of death to deal with, than shockwaves from the blast, tearing lungs apart, dont you think? 500 + 500 = 1 ton, of explosives on a house? LMAO, man you must be as simple as to gobble the sh-ite they come up with.
I mean, a car bomb with a few pounds of the stuff goes off and there are legs and arms everywhere, but a ton of it tears lungs apart from shockwaves? geez man, now i understand why we have who have leading the country.
He died of internal injuries, suggesting he was not in the room when the bombs exploded, according to Col. Steve Jones, the command surgeon for Multi-National Forces Iraq. However, he was inside the building, Jones told reporters Monday in Baghdad.
- Banned
- #106
NMWBloods said:
i rest my case at your simplicity NMW. He wasnt in the room, he was inside the building? I guess that is the buliding, that comes in the form of a house? That bulidng was reduced to rubble by 1 ton of explosives hitting it drirectly? And he died of internal injuiries? JOnes told reporters that Monday in Baghdad? ANd the reporters told you what Jones told them and NMW doesnt need to think about it huh? Far out man, we are in trouble arent we?
Its really interesting though, you know i could never understand how a govt that was lead by a PM that blatantly lied to us, was then given absolute power after a subsequent election. Now it is becoming clearer by the day, looking at people like you and cam and a host of others here.
CoggaRules said:i rest my case at your simplicity NMW. He wasnt in the room, he was inside the building? I guess that is the buliding, that comes in the form of a house? That bulidng was reduced to rubble by 1 ton of explosives hitting it drirectly? And he died of internal injuiries? JOnes told reporters that Monday in Baghdad? ANd the reporters told you what Jones told them and NMW doesnt need to think about it huh? Far out man, we are in trouble arent we?
Its really interesting though, you know i could never understand how a govt that was lead by a PM that blatantly lied to us, was then given absolute power after a subsequent election. Now it is becoming clearer by the day, looking at people like you and cam and a host of others here.
so, you can't refute the finding, and have just decided to vent your verbal diarrhea onto us?
Thanks cogga, you are so thoughtful.
- Banned
- #108
otaku said:
otaku they want you over in the gay marraige thread man, stick to what you know best.
CoggaRules said:otaku they want you over in the gay marraige thread man, stick to what you know best.
and you still cant refute the finding. What drugs are you on cogga?
- Banned
- #110
otaku said:
refute what finding? What was found? oh, you mean that lungs thing huh? ok, that can happen.
By the way, i havent seen you refuting what I suggest yet. So tell us otaku, when 1 ton of bombs make a direct hit on a house, reducing it to rubble, remember now, there are bricks, beams and a whole heap of other objects, mixed in with the shrapnel, flying everywhere, how does "not being in a room", save someone from not having a mark on his face? He must have had this secret bomb proof capsule that he was sitting in just in case huh?
CoggaRules said:refute what finding? What was found? oh, you mean that lungs thing huh? ok, that can happen.
By the way, i havent seen you refuting what I suggest yet. So tell us otaku, when 1 ton of bombs make a direct hit on a house, reducing it to rubble, remember now, there are bricks, beams and a whole heap of other objects, mixed in with the shrapnel, flying everywhere, how does "not being in a room", save someone from not having a mark on his face? He must have had this secret bomb proof capsule that he was sitting in just in case huh?
Ahhh, so, the fact that he has "no marks on his face" (which I will take your word for - i havent seen pictures of him) indicates yet another conspiracy in your mind eh?
You are a joke. NMWBloods gave you a site that details what injuries are most common from HiEx blasts, and yet you prattle on, with nothing more than "he has no marks on his face".
ON the other hand - the "no marks" must indicate that he wasnt beaten about the head by US troops.
- Banned
- #112
otaku said:
So tell us otaku, when 1 ton of bombs make a direct hit on a house, reducing it to rubble, remember now, there are bricks, beams and a whole heap of other objects, mixed in with the shrapnel, flying everywhere, how does "not being in a room", save someone from not having a mark on his face? He must have had this secret bomb proof capsule that he was sitting in just in case huh?
he must have just been lucky, seeing this?
"Zarqawi's "spiritual adviser", Sheikh Abd al-Rahman, suffered serious head injuries and died instantly. The bodies of a man and three women or girls killed in the bombing were handed over to Iraqi authorities and have yet to be identified."
People have been pulled from collapsed buildings with hardly any injuries. Sometimes the roof and walls fall directly on people. Sometimes they fall to provide a small space that is protected. Some people are killed by flying debris and some people are missed. Do you think that everyone would have identical injuries?CoggaRules said:
How do you explain that the most common injury is blast lung?
So are you saying he wasn't in the building? So what happened to him them?
- Banned
- #114
NMWBloods said:
umm collapsed bulidings collapse, 2 500lb bombs dont really make a building collapse do they? Do you understand what 1 ton hitting a house can do man?
CoggaRules said:
have you ever see the results of someone being in an explosion?
Quite often even people in the centre of the explosion come out with only one wound...usually it is a fatal wound, but they arn't shredded like you seem to think people should be.
- Banned
- #117
otaku said:
quite often they do, especially when "explosion", used in the sense you use it, doesnt really differentiate between an exploding stove and 1 ton's worth of bombs hitting a house.
Now if the do indeed quite often in the center of an explosion come out with one wound, then when you have this, "Zarqawi's "spiritual adviser", Sheikh Abd al-Rahman, suffered serious head injuries and died instantly. The bodies of a man and three women or girls killed in the bombing were handed over to Iraqi authorities and have yet to be identified.", then i guess this was one of those oncers that doesnt fit into the "quite often" category. Lets just understand this again, Zarquawi died from massive internal injuries" caused by the shock wave from the blast. But all the others in the house that was reduced to rubble, flattened, destroyed by 2, 500lb bombs, htting it drirectly, one of them suffered serious head injuries and died instantly, and the other 4 cant be identified? But Zaquarwi can, we have a portrait sized photo of him with a couple of scratches and bruises.
Yeah, everyone will pay that one wouldnt they? LMAO, especially when you factor in how many times US intelligence has had him in their gun sights, in the past 3 years and the Bush admin hasnt given the order to pop him with one bullet. Strange stuff, like real strange.
CoggaRules said:
Firstly, the other four "have yet to be identified" not "can't be identified".
Secondly, by their very nature explosions are random and the damage and casualties caused are thus random and different.
Thirdly, there are cases where people in the same vicinity of an explosion receive quite different wounds and cases where some people are killed outright and others receive no wounds at all. The two world wars provide a huge number of examples of this, whether in the open, in buildings or in other cover.
Fourthly, the London Blitz, amongst other occurrences, provides examples of people being pulled from destroyed buildings with minimal to no apparent injuries while other people in the same building have been killed.
Fifthly, do you understand the observation that "Blast lung is the most common fatal injury among initial survivors"? If you disagree with it, what is your evidence for disputing it?
Sixthly, answer the question - what do you think happened?
CoggaRules said:
yet again, your stupidity stands front and centre.
Someone can have a "serious head injury" from falling over, and die immediately.
As for unidentified bodies - what do you think happened in the london bombings, people turned up and identified the corpses straight away? it just doesnt happen. The need to figure out who these people were, not necessarily because of disfiguring wounds, but simply because they didnt know who they were!
It seems to me that you are merely scrabbling about, trying to find any tiny little thing to latch onto. Shame you are so bad at it.
As usual, once his stupidity has been shown, cogga flees the scene.
see how ridiculous it is cogga?
see how ridiculous it is cogga?
- Banned
- #121
NMWBloods said:
1. I await the day when those who havent "as yet been" identified, are identified. I guess this wont be reported to you or I. Unimportant collateral damage to most.
2. We are not talking about explosions we are talking about 2 rockets hitting a house, each carrying a 500lb payload.
3. Vicinity can be just that, now if he were in the house, i would suggest its not the vicinity but the target, dont yu think?
4. Not up to speed with the London Blitz, but taking a real wild guess, bombs were not directed at targets by rockets, also, those bombs would most likely have not been 500lb bombs, also buildings can be any amount of different constructions, this case is a buildign that is called a house, i assume single level? or was it an office building in downtown Baghdad and these dudes were in the bottom floor?
5. Yes i understand, but that is only stating the obvious, what i am asking is how does someone become an "initial survivor", with cuts and bruises, when pretty much everythign else was totally destroyed along with all but one of its occupants?
6. What i think happened? Dont know, i am sceptical of the people behind the incident, i.e. Bush admin, why? lets jsut say this, you are asking me to give you my opinion on what happened, but i would suggest we really should first hear Goerge's answers to the questions that abound on why, when this guy was "evil" and the terrorist we "got", seeing that George is the president and is calling the shots, why we have this:
"That it had opportunities to take out the Jordanian-born jihadist has been clear since Secretary of State Colin Powell devoted a long section of his February 2003 speech to the United Nations Security Council. In those remarks, which were given to underscore the threat posed by Saddam Hussein, Powell dwelt at length on the terrorist camp in Khurmal, in the pre-invasion Kurdish enclave. It was at that camp that Zarqawi, other jihadists who had fled Afghanistan, and Kurdish radicals were training and producing the poison ricin and cyanide."
"News reports—including, most recently, one in the Wall Street Journal this week—make it clear that military leaders and the CIA felt Zarqawi was a threat that could and should be removed
On at least three occasions between mid-2002 and the invasion of Iraq, the Pentagon presented plans to the White House to destroy the Khurmal camp. Each time the White House declined to act or did not respond at all"
Now George,why did it happen now and not then? When the president can answer that to the world, then I can formulate my answer to you NMW.
Irrelevant comment to divert from the fact that you were wrong with your original statement.CoggaRules said:
Ummm... what do you think rockets do? They cause explosions.
I have no idea what your point is. Zarqawi was in the vicinity of the other victims who were killed by the explosion, but it doesn't mean he will be affected the same.
Explosion are explosions. Whether it is delivered by a bomb or a rocket, it causes the same damage to its target. The tonnage of bombs dropped on London, and you can take many individual buildings, was much larger than on this dwelling. It's the city of London, so of course there is a huge variety of different structures, including single-story houses, that were destroyed and people were injured and killed when sheltering within them.
The Heinkel III was the main German bomber and it carried 4 x 550lb bombs.
Also you should consider the V1 and V2 rockets that hit London. The V1 rocket carried 850lb of explosives and the V2 2200lb!!
How is it "stating the obvious"? As for the rest, see above - that's the purpose of those comments, to explain how it can happen.
So you have no idea what might have happened and you can't provide a reasonable alternative, yet you dispute all the evidence and facts and explanations placed before without considering them. So who is sleeping or who is simple or who is stupid or...
- Banned
- #123
NMWBloods said:
now why did yu go and do that for NMW? why did you pick out ****y little things to answer, and left out the most important one and opted to go the "i am so stupid, i dont know why" route, on the last part of my post, hence you opt to hide yuo simplicity by suggesting that of me.
By the way, how can you suggest I am wrong in my original comment simpleton? How does havent been identified, cancel out that they cant be identified?
Be gone now man, you are starting to sound like a fascist sympathiser, i mean, here we are debating WTFs forever and a day and all you do is defend the WTFs? No one, and I mean no one, suggests terrorists are good, but you continue to always suggest that a Fascist regime, intent on ruining poeple's lives and making excuse after excuse for it are ok? Give me a break man, you sir, are UnAustralian.
CoggaRules said:
Yeah NMW - why did you have to go and show up how stupid coggas last post was?
- Mar 28, 2005
- 15,983
- 7
- Other Teams
- Adelaide
- Thread starter
- Banned
- #125
I'm lost.
So can someone explain: was the autopsy an internal US military autopsy or an indepedent autopsy?
So can someone explain: was the autopsy an internal US military autopsy or an indepedent autopsy?
