Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

[WhiteHartLane23]

Harry Clarke (Fitz) - 3 times premiership player - is mis-identifed in football records.

Current football records have the player as John Henry Clarke, born 27 Nov 1876 in Stawell and died 7 Nov 1946 at Carlton. This guy lived in Fitzroy during the footballer's playing days so it is easy to understand why the player was identified as him.

An anonymous person edited his wiki page in 2020 to show player as John Henry Clarke, born 29 June 1876 at Wallaroo, South Australia and died 25 Feb 1955 at Kew, Victoria.

With a bit of digging it appears that this is correct - this article about his wedding to Florence Gertude Mackay clearly identifies him as the Fitzroy player and Ancestry electoral rolls show him living with his mother (Ellen Clarke, nee Pengelly) in Chapel street, Prahran before getting married in 1905 and then living in Caulfield East and then Kew until his death in 1955.

Summary: Harry Clarke to be identified as John Henry Clarke, born 29 June 1876 at Wallaroo, South Australia and died 25 Feb 1955 at Kew, Victoria

 

[GreyCrow]

Harry Clarke (Fitz) - 3 times premiership player - is mis-identifed in football records.

Current football records have the player as John Henry Clarke, born 27 Nov 1876 in Stawell and died 7 Nov 1946 at Carlton. This guy lived in Fitzroy during the footballer's playing days so it is easy to understand why the player was identified as him.

An anonymous person edited his wiki page in 2020 to show player as John Henry Clarke, born 29 June 1876 at Wallaroo, South Australia and died 25 Feb 1955 at Kew, Victoria.

With a bit of digging it appears that this is correct - this article about his wedding to Florence Gertude Mackay clearly identifies him as the Fitzroy player and Ancestry electoral rolls show him living with his mother (Ellen Clarke, nee Pengelly) in Chapel street, Prahran before getting married in 1905 and then living in Caulfield East and then Kew until his death in 1955.

Summary: Harry Clarke to be identified as John Henry Clarke, born 29 June 1876 at Wallaroo, South Australia and died 25 Feb 1955 at Kew, Victoria

May need to re-check this - birth is 1867 which means informant was misinformed as to age 76 - or alternatively SABDM have transposed the 6 and 7 - but despite that a death age in 1955 of 76 is 1879 birth

And thats without the wrong names for parents

CLARKE John Henry
Mother Ellen PENGELLY
Father CLARKE James
KADINA SOUTH AUSTRALIA
KEW

76
1955
2302/1955

CLARKE

John

12-Apr-1867

M

William CLARKE

Margaret PENGELLEY

Adelaide

Adelaide

33/757

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

May need to re-check this - birth is 1867 which means informant was misinformed as to age 76 - or alternatively SABDM have transposed the 6 and 7 - but despite that a death age in 1955 of 76 is 1879 birth

And thats without the wrong names for parents

CLARKE John Henry
Mother Ellen PENGELLY
Father CLARKE James
KADINA SOUTH AUSTRALIA
KEW

76
1955
2302/1955

CLARKE

John

12-Apr-1867

M

William CLARKE

Margaret PENGELLEY

Adelaide

Adelaide

33/757

That birth record is for a different John Clarke - I think Margaret is Ellen's aunt.
The birth record appears on Ancestry as (note it is missing the E on the surname)

 

[GreyCrow]

That birth record is for a different John Clarke - I think Margaret is Ellen's aunt.
The birth record appears on Ancestry as (note it is missing the E on the surname)
View attachment 1960187

Ahh - I did notice when excluding John there was an Ellen Pengelly and I was working through the births with a E - That makes sense -

 

[Gibbsy]

Harry Clarke (Fitz) - 3 times premiership player - is mis-identifed in football records.

Current football records have the player as John Henry Clarke, born 27 Nov 1876 in Stawell and died 7 Nov 1946 at Carlton. This guy lived in Fitzroy during the footballer's playing days so it is easy to understand why the player was identified as him.

An anonymous person edited his wiki page in 2020 to show player as John Henry Clarke, born 29 June 1876 at Wallaroo, South Australia and died 25 Feb 1955 at Kew, Victoria.

With a bit of digging it appears that this is correct - this article about his wedding to Florence Gertude Mackay clearly identifies him as the Fitzroy player and Ancestry electoral rolls show him living with his mother (Ellen Clarke, nee Pengelly) in Chapel street, Prahran before getting married in 1905 and then living in Caulfield East and then Kew until his death in 1955.

Summary: Harry Clarke to be identified as John Henry Clarke, born 29 June 1876 at Wallaroo, South Australia and died 25 Feb 1955 at Kew, Victoria

Great get. Those unidentified Wikipedia edits – often crudely inserted into an infobox or other – can be a great source of starting information as they are often from a relative down the line.

How's your DOB crosschecking project coming along?

 

[35Daicos]

Harry Clarke (Fitz) - 3 times premiership player - is mis-identifed in football records.

Current football records have the player as John Henry Clarke, born 27 Nov 1876 in Stawell and died 7 Nov 1946 at Carlton. This guy lived in Fitzroy during the footballer's playing days so it is easy to understand why the player was identified as him.

An anonymous person edited his wiki page in 2020 to show player as John Henry Clarke, born 29 June 1876 at Wallaroo, South Australia and died 25 Feb 1955 at Kew, Victoria.

With a bit of digging it appears that this is correct - this article about his wedding to Florence Gertude Mackay clearly identifies him as the Fitzroy player and Ancestry electoral rolls show him living with his mother (Ellen Clarke, nee Pengelly) in Chapel street, Prahran before getting married in 1905 and then living in Caulfield East and then Kew until his death in 1955.

Summary: Harry Clarke to be identified as John Henry Clarke, born 29 June 1876 at Wallaroo, South Australia and died 25 Feb 1955 at Kew, Victoria

Great get. Those unidentified Wikipedia edits – often crudely inserted into an infobox or other – can be a great source of starting information as they are often from a relative down the line.

How's your DOB crosschecking project coming along?

A three-time premiership player does make that a very significant get! Excellent work!

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Great get. Those unidentified Wikipedia edits – often crudely inserted into an infobox or other – can be a great source of starting information as they are often from a relative down the line.

How's your DOB crosschecking project coming along?

Excluding any recent changes I think AFL Tables and australianfootball.com are "correct" except for this list
I have sent Rhett proposed updates for Tigerland Archive, have just completed reconciliation for blueseum, and am working on Collingwood Forever and Demonwiki.

note: my list is only VFL players - I've not reviewed AFL era players

 

[Gibbsy]

Excluding any recent changes I think AFL Tables and australianfootball.com are "correct" except for this list
I have sent Rhett proposed updates for Tigerland Archive, have just completed reconciliation for blueseum, and am working on Collingwood Forever and Demonwiki.

note: my list is only VFL players - I've not reviewed AFL era players

Collingwood Forever seems to be in a strange limbo state. They still post articles semi-regularly, update lists, and their bios are wonderful, but the stats only go up to the end of 2016, which means no new players or games have been added since the site’s inception in 2017 (for the club’s 125th anniversary). It even has the super old Telstra/SportsFan header banner across the top, indicating how long it’s been since the backend of the site has been touched.

Hopefully the club can find some money for updates, because right now it doesn’t really serve its function as an information repository for any players to have worn the black and white in the past two decades or so (accounting for anyone who retired past 2016).

 

[35Daicos]

Collingwood Forever seems to be in a strange limbo state. They still post articles semi-regularly, update lists, and their bios are wonderful, but the stats only go up to the end of 2016, which means no new players or games have been added since the site’s inception in 2017 (for the club’s 125th anniversary). It even has the super old Telstra/SportsFan header banner across the top, indicating how long it’s been since the backend of the site has been touched.

Hopefully the club can find some money for updates, because right now it doesn’t really serve its function as an information repository for any players to have worn the black and white in the past two decades or so (accounting for anyone who retired past 2016).

It is getting an upgrade "as we speak"! It had been hoped the job would have been completed by now, but it's not yet ready. I haven't heard an updated prediction as to when it will be 'live'.

The "new" site doesn't seem as if it will look a lot different to the old version. It will have player and match details covering up to the end of 2023, at least. I don't know if it will be being upgraded week-by-week during the season, but I'm hoping it will be.

The old site can still be viewed, but the search function is no longer working, and the site can't be updated (e.g. not even to include the DOD for Harry Paynter), as it's basically been "frozen" while they're waiting for the upgraded site to start running.

 

[stemline]

1986 R07 Haw v Syd - Behinds correction for Swans

All references have Paul Hawke kicking 3 behinds and Barry Mitchell 1. They both kick 2. All other scores align.



Summary -

1986 Rnd 7 Haw v Syd - Barry Mitchell plus 1 behind, Paul Hawke minus 1 behind.

 

[rbartlett]

Excluding any recent changes I think AFL Tables and australianfootball.com are "correct" except for this list
I have sent Rhett proposed updates for Tigerland Archive, have just completed reconciliation for blueseum, and am working on Collingwood Forever and Demonwiki.

note: my list is only VFL players - I've not reviewed AFL era players

Tigerland is now updated with all the changes you sent me via email.

 

[stemline]

1986 Rnd 9 Geel v Haw behinds correction

All references have Ken Judge kicking 2 behinds and Michael Tuck none. Hawthorn's 4th behind was incorrectly credited to Judge instead of the other long-sleeve wearer Tuck.

All Hawthorn's 5 behinds are in the below video.



Summary -

1986 Rnd 9 Geel v Haw - Michael Tuck plus 1 behind, Ken Judge minus 1 behind.

 

[Supermercado]

Another likely goal with first kick - Melbourne's Kelvin Clarke in Round 1, 1968. Who knows how rigorous their disposal stats were, but I'll take this on face value.

Article is from the Herald but I don't have the exact date.

 

[35Daicos]

Another likely goal with first kick - Melbourne's Kelvin Clarke in Round 1, 1968. Who knows how rigorous their disposal stats were, but I'll take this on face value.

Article is from the Herald but I don't have the exact date.

View attachment 1963403

This appears to be another case from the same round (that's not found in the records):

 

[Gibbsy]

Nice work guys.

Amazingly, those two cases means we now hit exactly 300 recognised cases of the feat taking place.

Wiki will need to be updated: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_VFL/AFL_players_to_have_scored_a_goal_with_their_first_kick

 

[rbartlett]

Nice work guys.

Amazingly, those two cases means we now hit exactly 300 recognised cases of the feat taking place.

Wiki will need to be updated: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_VFL/AFL_players_to_have_scored_a_goal_with_their_first_kick

With this list, I should add that Tom Hafey's name was added to it in the mid 2000s after an interview with me where he recalled coming on late in the game and kicking a goal with his first kick.
The AFL Col H approve that addition - though its always slightly nagged at me that we were taking the info on a memory so long ago.

Newspapers show Hafey did come on in the last quarter


And the Sporting Globe article seems to indicate that he came right on an kick a goal.
So I guess thats as strong as evidence as we can get.

 

[the croucher]

With this list, I should add that Tom Hafey's name was added to it in the mid 2000s after an interview with me where he recalled coming on late in the game and kicking a goal with his first kick.
The AFL Col H approve that addition - though its always slightly nagged at me that we were taking the info on a memory so long ago.

Newspapers show Hafey did come on in the last quarter
View attachment 1965098

And the Sporting Globe article seems to indicate that he came right on an kick a goal.
So I guess thats as strong as evidence as we can get.
View attachment 1965101

match report text in The Herald seems to back it up too..
"The Magpies slackened, and Hafey, just on the field, goaled for Richmond."

Magpies outpace Richmond - The Herald (Melbourne, Vic. : 1861 - 1954) - 30 May 1953

trove.nla.gov.au

 

[rbartlett]

match report text in The Herald seems to back it up too..
"The Magpies slackened, and Hafey, just on the field, goaled for Richmond."

Magpies outpace Richmond - The Herald (Melbourne, Vic. : 1861 - 1954) - 30 May 1953

trove.nla.gov.au

In that case I suppose that's as close as we will get. So best we leave it in there.

 

[rbartlett]

Regarding : First kick a goal

Vin Crowe rang made and said he remembers debuting for Richmond in 1964 for his only game for them (later played for Hawthorn), and that he came on very late in the game, had one kick and kicked a goal.

I have found newspaper reports saying that Crowe did come on very later and "very quickly" kicked a goal - but yet to find the confirmation that it was his first kick.

View attachment 1704628

I wonder therefore if we should also accept Vin Crowe's suggestion to me that he kicked a goal with his first kick on debut late in the game. Press says he "very quickly" kicked a goal after coming on.
I suppose if we are accepting Tom Hafey's goal - this wording from the paper is similar as well. Thoughts?

 

[rbartlett]

Summary: Mick Glennister (Geel) wore No. 18 for Rd 14 1940 vs Fitzroy.

 

[Supermercado]

The evidence on this is a bit flimsy, but according to the MFC Past Players newsletter November 2022, Arthur Pound was going to be added to the AFL's official list of first kick/first goalscorers. I'm not taking this one as gospel without further evidence.

A later edition also claims Jeremy Nichols in R8, 1986 but it's not mentioned in any reports I can see. Will put it on the list for checking other sources.

 

[35Daicos]

The evidence on this is a bit flimsy, but according to the MFC Past Players newsletter November 2022, Arthur Pound was going to be added to the AFL's official list of first kick/first goalscorers. I'm not taking this one as gospel without further evidence.

A later edition also claims Jeremy Nichols in R8, 1986 but it's not mentioned in any reports I can see. Will put it on the list for checking other sources.

View attachment 1965628

Arthur Pound is on the list in the AFL Season Guide. Jeremy Nichols isn't named.

 

[35Daicos]

Nice work guys.

Amazingly, those two cases means we now hit exactly 300 recognised cases of the feat taking place.

Wiki will need to be updated: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_VFL/AFL_players_to_have_scored_a_goal_with_their_first_kick

 

[Gibbsy]

View attachment 1966110
View attachment 1966113

Thanks mate. That's extremely helpful. I've crosschecked the Wikipedia list and the AFL's list above, with the following results...

WIKIPEDIA MISSING:

• Callum Brown - GWS - R21, 2021
• Chris Burgess - GC - R1, 2019
• Ian George - StK - R8, 1973
• Max King - StK - R1, 2020
• Brendan Littler - StK - R20, 1986
• Ryan Maric - WCE - R13, 2023
• Nathan O'Driscoll - Frem - R2, 2022
• Arthur Pound - Melb - R8, 1950
• Josh Rachele - Adel - R1, 2022
• Cooper Sharman - StK - R20, 2021
• Tom Sparrow - Melb - R1, 2019

The Wikipedia list is largely sourced from the 2019 AFL Season Guide, with entries from that point on being individually/manually sourced. That would explain the eight post-2018 mising entries, presuming that none of the regular editors noticed those particular instances take place. My assumptions with George (1973) and Littler (1986) is that, much like Pound (1950), these were historic cases discovered by the AFL and added to their master list in the last few years. I will add these to the Wiki list before the night is out.


AFL SEASON GUIDE MISSING:

• Ryan Burton - Haw - R21, 2016
• Tom Doedee - Ade - R1, 2018
• Sam Jones - StK - R10, 1994
• Irving Mosquito - Ess - R13, 2020
• Kevin Webb - Melb - R12, 1951
• Samson Ryan - Rich - R2, 2023 is listed, but should have both a # (for being kickless in his first game) and a *** (for kicking three goals with his first three kicks)

The missing cases from the AFL's master list are a little less easier to understand. Burton's case is sourced here; for my sins I watched the first quarter up until his goal to confirm that was the case.

The Mosquito goal is also a confirmed missing case:


The Doedee one, however, is a clear mistake on Wiki's behalf – maybe it was in the 2018 AFL SG list, I'm not sure – but considering he didn't kick his first goal until Round 15, and he debuted in Round 1 (which is the game the listing gives), it's an obvious error, and therefore is correct to be missing from the AFL's list.

The cases of Jones (1994) and Webb (1951) I am less sure on.

Jones certainly seems plausible. There's no video footage of his goal in this short highlights package, but St Kilda's first two goals came in the second quarter, and Jones' first kick also came in the second quarter.





I am assuming that while Webb's goal may have been his first kicked in league football – and it was his first game for the Dees – he had previously played 7 games for Richmond in 1949, and it's unlikely he went kickless in all seven. Does this link up with your understanding Supermercado ?

 

[rbartlett]

I wonder therefore if we should also accept Vin Crowe's suggestion to me that he kicked a goal with his first kick on debut late in the game. Press says he "very quickly" kicked a goal after coming on.
I suppose if we are accepting Tom Hafey's goal - this wording from the paper is similar as well. Thoughts?

Here's my evidence that we could consider adding Vin Crowe (Richmond) to 'goal with first kick'
Rd 17 1964 Richmond v Geelong.

Sporting Globe:


Thoughts?