Current Disappearance of 3yo William Tyrrell Pt 2 * Coroners Inquiry CANCELLED!

[Kurve]

Continued from PART 1

Criminal charges:

• Apprehended Violence Orders on both (AVOs)
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster mother *Not Guilty
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster father *Not Guilty
• 2 x charges of assault against a child on former foster mother *Guilty
• 1 x charge of assault against a child on former foster father *Not Guilty
• Stalking &/or Intimidation on both *Guilty
• Dummy bidding real estate fraud *Guilty

TIMELINE

Where's William Tyrrell? - The Ch 10 podcast (under Coroner's subpoena)

Operation Arkstone

Please type names out in full for those who are not covered by suppression orders.

For those covered by suppression orders, please use the following to indicate:

FM - Foster Mother
FF - Foster Father
FGM - Foster Grandmother
FD - Foster Daughter
FPs - Foster Parents

Up to you if you wish to refer to them as former fosters but please write it in full, strictly using the above. No deviations.

Other initials posters will use informally but should not are:

BCR - Batar Creek Road
FA - Frank Abbott
MW - Michelle White
SFR - Strike Force Rosann
AMS - Anne Maree Sharpley
CCR - Cobb and Co Road
GO - Geoff Owens
One even reduced bike riding to - BR
COG - Consciousness of guilt. Like WHO KNEW?

 

[Angry Red Bull]

You also have the impact on the relationship that would occur on alleged unilateral decisions to hide a death of your foster child.

We can draw some similarities too with Lindy Chamberlain. She was accused, charged and convicted and her personal journey though innocent drove a wedge that ended the relationship. It would have been nighe impossible if one partner was actually responsible in the sense of hiding a body as has been alleged in unilateral way. Major betrayal of trust. Yet they remain united which to me shows unity on the whole sordid drama with WT missing that wouldn't be possible if one acted alone.

 

[Lady O]

Do you know how many people have NPD worldwide? It's estimated to be 1%. So no.

I know it is topical at present, but could FM have been afraid of DV if she told FF the truth? I know of a similar incident.

 

[31550]

You also have the impact on the relationship that would occur on unilateral decisions to hide a death of your foster child.

We can draw some similarities too with Lindy Chamberlain. She was accused, charged and convicted and her personal journey though innocent drove a wedge that ended the relationship. It would have been nighe impossible if one partner was actually responsible in the sense of hiding a body as has been alleged in unilateral way. Major betrayal of trust. Yet they remain united which to me shows unity on the whole sordid drama with WT missing that wouldn't be possible if one acted alone.

I get what you are saying. Yes, NPD is relatively rare, but it exists (often undiagnosed), and might explain certain actions in this case. This is not a 'usual' case - it is full of exceptional circumstances, some of which might require 'exceptional' explanations. Clearly, we are not dealing with a 'normal', functional, family unit in a normal situation by any means.

The comparison with Lindy Chamberlain to me demonstrates the opposite of what you are suggesting. In her case, police and the judicial system were (for many years) capable of believing that she killed her own daughter in cold blood, and either kept it to herself, or acted in kahoots with her husband. This is perfectly analogous to what I am suggesting could have happened in the WT case. If police and the courts, (and probably most of the country) believed Lindy Chamberlain was capable of such an act, why would it be so hard to believe in the WT case?

 

[LRitz]

So there was no consideration of / no attention paid to gathering evidence in case the situation was different to that reported and possibly something untoward had occurred.

On "gathering evidence", I suppose there was no examination of FM's hand injury. She tells police in statement 14th Feb, that it happened as she was with William playing on the grass. So she is not trying to hide the graze on her right palm. But did anyone look at it. In the short clip of her walkthrough about her drive to Batar Creek rd, she is holding a white tissue (handkerchief ?) in her right palm for the whole time. So the palm of her hand is not visible.

On another note, and just a comment as it is a bit odd IMO, when FF does his walkthrough outside he also has a tissue in the palm of his right hand. i know he does sneeze or have hay fever but does he use the tissue? It also stays in his right hand. I don't know if it indicates anything but very odd. One of those things that once you see it you can't unsee it.

 

[LRitz]

The comparison with Lindy Chamberlain to me demonstrates the opposite of what you are suggesting. In her case, police and the judicial system were (for many years) capable of believing that she killed her own daughter in cold blood, and either kept it to herself, or acted in kahoots with her husband.

Talking of Lindy Chamberlain, of interest in todays SMH the obituary of Barry Boettcher. He was the scientist and blood expert who showed the blood test was wrong and was picking up copper not foetal Hb in the Chamberlain's car.

The comparison with Lindy Chamberlain is that in both cases early correct investigations and forensics where not done. In both cases, understandably, the priority was looking for a missing child. And then some evidence that did not fit with the police scenario was ignored (eg the other campers who had seen a dingo).

Main defence witness in trial of Michael and Lindy Chamberlain dies

Scientist Barry Boettcher said tests on the Chamberlains’ car showed the presence of copper dust – not blood.

www.smh.com.au

 

[31550]

On "gathering evidence", I suppose there was no examination of FM's hand injury. She tells police in statement 14th Feb, that it happened as she was with William playing on the grass. So she is not trying to hide the graze on her right palm. But did anyone look at it. In the short clip of her walkthrough about her drive to Batar Creek rd, she is holding a white tissue (handkerchief ?) in her right palm for the whole time. So the palm of her hand is not visible.

On another note, and just a comment as it is a bit odd IMO, when FF does his walkthrough outside he also has a tissue in the palm of his right hand. i know he does sneeze or have hay fever but does he use the tissue? It also stays in his right hand. I don't know if it indicates anything but very odd. One of those things that once you see it you can't unsee it.

I agree about the FM hand injury and the missed opportunity to examine it closely at the time, including examination of the bush where it allegedly occurred to confirm blood traces.

I'm not sure what you are getting at with the FF and his tissue and hayfever however? This walkthrough was several days after William disappeared. What relevance is the tissue in this video?

 

[LRitz]

I agree about the FM hand injury and the missed opportunity to examine it closely at the time, including examination of the bush where it allegedly occurred to confirm blood traces.

I'm not sure what you are getting at with the FF and his tissue and hayfever however? This walkthrough was several days after William disappeared. What relevance is the tissue in this video?

As I said - One of those things that once you see it you can't unsee it. I had seen both before and NOT noticed the similarity. I thought it was odd and awkward for FM to be holding a tissue that way with her thumb.Was she hiding the hand injury? Then FF is doing something similar.

I really don't think it means anything but is rather odd.Unless he is hiding a hand injury as well. but I am not really going to suggest that as I don't think it has ever been mentioned and that would only be guessing.

 

[Wallace52]

Dare I say. Look at the time on the photo.

I mean, that’s been looked at and discussed ad nauseam 100’s of times.

The photo times don’t tell me anything, really. I know the fosters like to play around with photos, editing bits and pieces, photoshopping. They can change a sippy cup into a candle: It’s magic!

Hell: It’s remotely possible they edited those photos in a range of ways before providing them to the cops, imo.

But what is the significance of that? Were they taken at circa 7.37am on 12 Sept 2014? What does that change? What about if the photos were taken on another day during a previous visit?

It doesn’t mean much to me either way. Photos or not, I know W was there. In Kendall. I know he was probably wearing that suit at some point in that morning.

I was just saying, something needs to break in this case, otherwise it will just remain an unsolved homicide. I mean it’s been nearly 10 years, which is truly so heartbreaking.

 

[Wallace52]

What relevance is the tissue in this video?

As I said - One of those things that once you see it you can't unsee it. I had seen both before and NOT noticed the similarity. I thought it was odd and awkward for FM to be holding a tissue that way with her thumb.Was she hiding the hand injury? Then FF is doing something similar.

I really don't think it means anything but is rather odd.Unless he is hiding a hand injury as well. but I am not really going to suggest that as I don't think it has ever been mentioned and that would only be guessing.

Are you suggesting the FF had a hand injury also?

Ok I just had a look and FF swaps tissues from L hand to R hand throughout the video.

FM on the other hand had her tissue physically stuck on her R hand throughout her walkthrough.

All imo

 

[Wallace52]

OK, but consider the scenario where Mrs ARB was responsible for looking after the puppy and caused a fatal injury through some reckless or wanton neglect or abuse. Without casting aspersions on you or Mrs ARB, would not, in some domestic scenarios, it be in line with 'human behaviour' to conceal this fact from ARB, hide the poor puppy's body, and simply make up a story that the puppy escaped or ran off, so a passer-by must have stolen it, even though the puppy was 'not a wanderer' and it was 'totally out of character', and she only turned her back for '5 minutes'. There is nothing Mrs ARB can do to bring the puppy back. Why bring extra grief on herself or ARB by admitting to her actions, if nobody saw, and she can get away with it?

Im going to enter into this rather interesting puppy scenario. It’s really weird but I’m endeavouring to give it a go.

I think your theory is pretty solid, 31550, you know the case well, but I’m thinking perhaps it’s more likely ARB maybe falsely told her husband that the slightly older girl puppy pushed the little boy puppy off the high veranda and ARB henceforth invited her husband to assist her in covering up the catastrophe in order to preserve the status of said slightly older girl puppy, even though the little boy puppy likely perished.

It might explain some of the hatred we have heard transcribed in court recordings of the husband interacting with S. O. G. P.

Maybe he blames the SOGP?

 

[31550]

Im going to enter into this rather interesting puppy scenario. It’s really weird but I’m endeavouring to give it a go.

I think your theory is pretty solid, 31550, you know the case well, but I’m thinking perhaps it’s more likely ARB maybe falsely told her husband that the slightly older girl puppy pushed the little boy puppy off the high veranda and ARB henceforth invited her husband to assist her in covering up the catastrophe in order to preserve the status of said slightly older girl puppy, even though the little boy puppy likely perished.

It might explain some of the hatred we have heard transcribed in court recordings of the husband interacting with S. O. G. P.

Maybe he blames the SOGP?

Yeah maybe. There's also the possibility that the story about SOGP is true, and not made up. If only puppies could talk.

 

[Wallace52]

Yeah maybe. There's also the possibility that the story about SOGP is true, and not made up. If only puppies could talk.

They’ve never looked to charge the foster mother with manslaughter or murder, have they? IMO. AFAIK.

Hmmmm

 

[Wallace52]

The behaviour is totally incongruous with human nature which has been my point all the way along.

I recall 12 odd years ago I was at work and I received a call from my wife. Our newly purchased puppy spoodle had escaped the house and ran away and she was informing me and asking me to immediately come home and help find her. I did. The point being that IF the child was abducted OR he had had a life threatening accident you wouldn't wait until he came home later. You'd try and seek input what to do immediately. On their story that didn't happen and I simply don't believe it. The obvious explanation to me is that FF was there when it happened earlier and was therefore no need to explain what had already been discussed.

Exactly. And I won’t even start on the 000 call being incongruous with normal human behaviour. Because it’s been discussed to death.

 

[Wallace52]

Do you know how many people have NPD worldwide? It's estimated to be 1%. So no.

I definitely think the NPD has influenced the behaviour of this person. But if she’s committed this crime, I’d say she’s bad, not mad.

As you said, there’s plenty of people out there on the NPD spectrum. It’s no excuse.

 

[LRitz]

Are you suggesting the FF had a hand injury also?

As I said above, I really don't think it means anything but is rather odd. So I am NOT suggesting he had a hand injury. I don't think that a hand injury has ever been mentioned before.
So my comment is just that. It looks a bit odd. Blokes don't often carry around tissues in their hands. it is similar to the FM. He knew he was being filmed.

 

[31550]

I definitely think the NPD has influenced the behaviour of this person. But if she’s committed this crime, I’d say she’s bad, not mad.

As you said, there’s plenty of people out there on the NPD spectrum. It’s no excuse.

Yeah that's the thing. It's a spectrum, so there is a wide variation of how extreme this disorder is, and how and how often it affects behaviours. Sometimes it is only apparent in times of stress. And NPD is not the only type of personality disorder. There are others which affect behaviour. They also have spectrums, and people can be affected by one or more.

 

[Angry Red Bull]

Yeah that's the thing. It's a spectrum, so there is a wide variation of how extreme this disorder is, and how and how often it affects behaviours. Sometimes it is only apparent in times of stress. And NPD is not the only type of personality disorder. There are others which affect behaviour. They also have spectrums, and people can be affected by one or more.

If you talk to a psychologist about narcissism they will inform you it is indeed a spectrum. They'll also point out that absence of narcissistic traits at the low end is very unhealthy. You need narcissistic traits of some substance for adequate self esteem. I don't know where FM stands on the spectrum. She has some traits agreed. To me the relationship doesn't appear so stilted as to render FF superfluous. So I feel normal relationship machinations are relevant. Just my opinion from what I see from a distance

 

[31550]

If you talk to a psychologist about narcissism they will inform you it is indeed a spectrum. They'll also point out that absence of narcissistic traits at the low end is very unhealthy. You need narcissistic traits of some substance for adequate self esteem. I don't know where FM stands on the spectrum. She has some traits agreed. To me the relationship doesn't appear so stilted as to render FF superfluous. So I feel normal relationship machinations are relevant. Just my opinion from what I see from a distance

I'm not trying to be an armchair psychologist, if that's what you think.

I am simply coming up with rational and credible explanations for how certain theories or scenarios may have played out in the case of William. I am simply trying to explain these theoretical behaviours, not justify them, condone them, or in any way mitigate them.

No 'normal' person would be expected to behave in the various (abnormal) ways suggested. However, someone under severe mental, emotional, or even physical stress might.

 

[Wallace52]

I'm not trying to be an armchair psychologist, if that's what you think.

I am simply coming up with rational and credible explanations for how certain theories or scenarios may have played out in the case of William. I am simply trying to explain these theoretical behaviours, not justify them, condone them, or in any way mitigate them.

No 'normal' person would be expected to behave in the various (abnormal) ways suggested. However, someone under severe mental, emotional, or even physical stress might.

She’s not neurotypical: I can tell you that much.

 

[Wallace52]

As I said above, I really don't think it means anything but is rather odd. So I am NOT suggesting he had a hand injury. I don't think that a hand injury has ever been mentioned before.
So my comment is just that. It looks a bit odd. Blokes don't often carry around tissues in their hands. it is similar to the FM. He knew he was being filmed.

Yeah he’s a big sook.

 

[Wallace52]

Yeah maybe. There's also the possibility that the story about SOGP is true, and not made up. If only puppies could talk.

Someone might not remember exactly what happened when they were 4 years of age.

 

[31550]

Someone might not remember exactly what happened when they were 4 years of age.

They might remember but not be able to recall. In any case their recall of events would be highly unreliable after 10 years, especially with the pollution of various stories and narratives from other people. It's never going to be of any legal consequence.
I remembered things from my childhood which were quite real and significant to me, yet my parents (present at the time) seemed oblivious, and denied they ever happened.

 

[Wallace52]

They might remember but not be able to recall. In any case their recall of events would be highly unreliable after 10 years, especially with the pollution of various stories and narratives from other people. It's never going to be of any legal consequence.
I remembered things from my childhood which were quite real and significant to me, yet my parents (present at the time) seemed oblivious, and denied they ever happened.

Shanelle Dawson who’s father Chris murdered her mother Lyn was hypnotised by a consultant via NSW POL.

The same consultant psychologist was the person appointed to provide witness testimony in Court and generated an expert report regarding LT in relation to the foster parents stalk / intimidate + assault cases.

For your reference, an excerpt snipped from Shanelle’s experience with Dr. Banks:

“I believe I saw my sister and I in the back of a car, of our station wagon, and my mother slumped in the front,” she told the program.

“I believe I saw him shining headlights on a spot near the pool and digging.

“I believe that he buried her in that spot for that night, and then the next day when he didn’t have us kids, moved her somewhere else.”

The hypnosis was organised by police in 2013 and performed by clinical psychologist Dr Gary Banks in Sydney.”

'I saw him digging': Chris Dawson's daughter reveals memory

The daughter of convicted wife-killer Chris Dawson has revealed the "profound" memories that surfaced when she was hypnotised.

www.thenewdaily.com.au

I guess you’re thinking why is this significant and what does it have to do with a discussion regarding the memory of a 4 year old witness?


It might be too long a bow to draw, but
LT was 4 years of age when W went missing. Shanelle was 4 years of age when her mum went missing. Did both people came into contact somehow with Dr. Banks through NSWPOL as witnesses?

 

[Angry Red Bull]

I'm not trying to be an armchair psychologist, if that's what you think.

I am simply coming up with rational and credible explanations for how certain theories or scenarios may have played out in the case of William. I am simply trying to explain these theoretical behaviours, not justify them, condone them, or in any way mitigate them.

No 'normal' person would be expected to behave in the various (abnormal) ways suggested. However, someone under severe mental, emotional, or even physical stress might.

I've already discussed in detail an amygdala hijacking which may take place with fight and flight response to an alleged deadly accident. They can tend to temporarily impair rational thought. But we know that they happen and our rational mind seeks to exert control again quickly because we know. Where there is deadly consequences too our rational mind knows this and even more so seeks to expedite control. They usually last about 20 minutes. It's extremely unlikely in my opinion that irrational thought took over for extended period abandoning human nature. Getting immediate help and involvement of a partner for an alleged deadly accident would be high probability to occur despite underlying narcissistic traits. I cant accept she abandoned human nature like that.

 

[31550]

Shanelle Dawson who’s father Chris murdered her mother Lyn was hypnotised by a consultant via NSW POL.

The same consultant psychologist was the person appointed to provide witness testimony in Court and generated an expert report regarding LT in relation to the foster parents stalk / intimidate + assault cases.

For your reference, an excerpt snipped from Shanelle’s experience with Dr. Banks:

“I believe I saw my sister and I in the back of a car, of our station wagon, and my mother slumped in the front,” she told the program.

“I believe I saw him shining headlights on a spot near the pool and digging.

“I believe that he buried her in that spot for that night, and then the next day when he didn’t have us kids, moved her somewhere else.”

The hypnosis was organised by police in 2013 and performed by clinical psychologist Dr Gary Banks in Sydney.”

'I saw him digging': Chris Dawson's daughter reveals memory

The daughter of convicted wife-killer Chris Dawson has revealed the "profound" memories that surfaced when she was hypnotised.

www.thenewdaily.com.au

I guess you’re thinking why is this significant and what does it have to do with a discussion regarding the memory of a 4 year old witness?


It might be too long a bow to draw, but
LT was 4 years of age when W went missing. Shanelle was 4 years of age when her mum went missing. Did both people came into contact somehow with Dr. Banks through NSWPOL as witnesses?

It's a tough one. Shanelle's memories recalled under hypnosis were not permitted to be used in evidence against her father. There is a lot of debate and controversy about this type of evidence. In the Dawson case, he was convicted on other evidence anyway.

So, it would be difficult to see any successful prosecution proceeding on the basis (only) of William's sister's recollections if they were to be done under hypnosis. It might be different if she came forward as an independent adult witness (when she is legally entitled to do so), and presented a story different from what we have been told so far. Even then, I am fearful that defence lawyers would put her through the wringer under such circumstances. It would take incredible courage and determination on her behalf.

It's more likely that she has no clear recall of events, or has become confused or misled by the various narratives which emerged since the event.