Analysis The Rebuilds of Geelong and Richmond and their Future Prospects

[Meteoric Rise]

More than happy for 25 years of beating Richmond along with a few flags followed by a couple of years of losing finals to Richmond followed by another flag. I'm guessing if it meant Richmond winning another 3 in 4 you'd be pretty happy too. What's there to be unhappy about?

The 30 odd years you dominated us was an outlier. Nothing like that had ever happened before, so probably doesn't repeat.

Our 85% win rate against you in finals is a forever thing. Probably a bit more bankable I would have thought. But hey, Oli Henry might change all that. Despite being the man who evades Premierships for a living.

2022 O Henry does not play at Geelong and they win the flag, he does play at Collingwood, they don't win the flag.

2023 O Henry does not play at Collingwood they win the flag. He does play at Geelong they don't win the flag.

When he gets sick of being part of the problem, he might decide to become part of the solution for you guys, with any luck.

 

[Vdubs]

The 30 odd years you dominated us was an outlier. Nothing like that had ever happened before, so probably doesn't repeat.

Our 85% win rate against you in finals is a forever thing. Probably a bit more bankable I would have thought. But hey, Oli Henry might change all that. Despite being the man who evades Premierships for a living.

2022 O Henry does not play at Geelong and they win the flag, he does play at Collingwood, they don't win the flag.

2023 O Henry does not play at Collingwood they win the flag. He does play at Geelong they don't win the flag.

When he gets sick of being part of the problem, he might decide to become part of the solution for you guys, with any luck.

Let's hope you don't pinch Max Holmes from us then, maybe the same evasive skills

 

[MisterMarcus]

Have either club actually started their rebuilds yet?

Both sides set to finish in no mans land. Not good enough to contend. Not bad enough to get top draft picks.

I guess that's the cost of topping up one too many times.

Going to be brutal for both clubs.

Better get bad fast - Tasmania going to ruin the drafts in a few years.

We've definitely looked more at youth in the last few off-seasons. Even when we've brought in players from other teams (Henry, Bruhn, even Stengle) they've been early 20s, and i think we've got a solid enough core of 25-and-unders.

So I think we're at least already in the 'transitional' phase where the old blokes are gradually giving way to the younger brigade.

 

[MisterMarcus]

The 30 odd years you dominated us was an outlier. Nothing like that had ever happened before, so probably doesn't repeat.

Our 85% win rate against you in finals is a forever thing. Probably a bit more bankable I would have thought. But hey, Oli Henry might change all that. Despite being the man who evades Premierships for a living.

2022 O Henry does not play at Geelong and they win the flag, he does play at Collingwood, they don't win the flag.

2023 O Henry does not play at Collingwood they win the flag. He does play at Geelong they don't win the flag.

When he gets sick of being part of the problem, he might decide to become part of the solution for you guys, with any luck.

This is some pretty weak attempt at trolling even by your standards....

 

[Meteoric Rise]

This is some pretty weak attempt at trolling even by your standards....

I thought the thread needed a bit of edge, a bit of levity.

On a more serious note, I refute the Footy Smarts suggestion in the post quoted below that the group of players Richmond has brought to the club from 2018 onwards is dire. No player on the list now that cost a draft pick was older than 25 when we recruited him. So from the 2018 off season onwards we have recruited who are still on the list and have played AFL football by current age:

31yo Tom Lynch
26yo Jacob Hopper
25yo Tim Taranto, Tylar Young
23yo Rhyan Mansell, Jacob Koschitzke
22yo Jack Ross, Sam Ryan, Noah Cumberland, Matt Coulthard, Tom Dow, Hugo Ralphsmith
21yo Jacob Bauer, James Trezise, Maurice Rioli Jnr
20yo Tyler Sonsie, Sam Banks, Josh Gibcus, Tom Brown, Judson Clarke

Bolded are players who have already either played in an AFL final or been selected in a run of around 10 consecutive AFL matches. Clubs need to recruit around 2 best 22 players per season. We have brought in 11 players who already meet the above criteria in the last 5 off-seasons in question.

Our list of young players recruited from 2018 onwards would likely be below AFL average at this point, as you would expect from a team who started the period with b2b flags and has only missed finals once in the 5 relevant off-seasons. But they are not dire. And our rebuild is well underway, the club was building its future list all through its dynasty. What the club hadn't added through the draft at any material stage were AFL quality inside mids or key forwards. Thus, trading for the following players(age as at recruitment to Richmond):

25yo Jacob Hopper
24yo Tim Taranto
23yo Jacob Koschitzke

The club is looking to recruit a high quality young key forward in the very near future to essentially fill in the last major desperate need. From there it is just a matter of how well these youngsters develop, how well they are coached and led etc, just like any other team.

In summary, our youth is not dire and our list build commenced in 2014 if you were talking about let's say building our 2027-28 team.

The 2015-2017 group definitely favours Richmond. But Geelong's got a solid group there too with J Henry, Stengle, Close, Miers, Z Guthrie, O'Connor and Bowes. Not sure there's huge improvement in the Richmond group either given the level they're already at.

The 2018 group onwards for Richmond is dire though. If you take out the 4 proven quality AFL talents (SDK, Holmes, Bruhn, O Henry) I still wouldn't switch Geelong's group for Richmond's. And that's before Geelong adds a top 10 pick at the draft while Richmond won't be picking until 30+.

 

[Partridge]

Point is though, it hasn't been our nature since 2007

Doesn't mean it's going to happen forever.

It was our nature in 2015 as well. I'm not totally convinced we were contending for the flag every year anyway judging by the excuses that were offered every single season except for last year.

 

[Vdubs]

Doesn't mean it's going to happen forever.

It was our nature in 2015 as well. I'm not totally convinced we were contending for the flag every year anyway judging by the excuses that were offered every single season except for last year.

Agreed.
I think it's inevitable and obvious we're in for a lean period as far as top 8 finishes, given our list age and MF weakness, but 24 is the difficult one; we could end up literally ANYWHERE on the ladder.

 

[Tristan34]

The 30 odd years you dominated us was an outlier. Nothing like that had ever happened before, so probably doesn't repeat.

Our 85% win rate against you in finals is a forever thing. Probably a bit more bankable I would have thought. But hey, Oli Henry might change all that. Despite being the man who evades Premierships for a living.

2022 O Henry does not play at Geelong and they win the flag, he does play at Collingwood, they don't win the flag.

2023 O Henry does not play at Collingwood they win the flag. He does play at Geelong they don't win the flag.

When he gets sick of being part of the problem, he might decide to become part of the solution for you guys, with any luck.

Wow!!! Over 85% win rate in finals againt Geelong
What is the percentages of Richmond playing finals over the last 30 years?

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Wow!!! Over 85% win rate in finals againt Geelong
What is the percentages of Richmond playing finals over the last 30 years?

I suspect you mean the last 76 years. Richmond have made finals only an abysmal 20 times in those 76 years. How bad is that, only 20 times in finals?

For 8 flags. We are pretty decent at that part.

My favourite part is how the Geelong Football Club assisted us to 6 of those flags by losing finals to us. By the following margins:

9 points
119
24
51
19
39*

*adjusted margin for full length game

44 point average margin.

So some nice little confidence boosters in there to help us on our way to a much needed 6 flags. Thanks Geelong FC.

 

[Footy Smarts]

On a more serious note, I refute the Footy Smarts suggestion in the post quoted below that the group of players Richmond has brought to the club from 2018 onwards is dire.

We were talking about players whose draft year was 2018 onwards. So these players:

23yo Rhyan Mansell, Jacob Koschitzke
22yo Jack Ross, Sam Ryan, Noah Cumberland, Matt Coulthard, Tom Dow, Hugo Ralphsmith
21yo Jacob Bauer, James Trezise, Maurice Rioli Jnr
20yo Tyler Sonsie, Sam Banks, Josh Gibcus, Tom Brown, Judson Clarke

And yeah I maintain that looks like an absolutely dire group of under 24s. By far the worst in the AFL currently.

How many are worth a top 20 pick right now? Gibcus assuming his injuries aren't career threatening. That's it.

Ross is an ok role player. Ryan, Clarke, Banks and Brown have shown a little bit. If you get lucky 1-2 of them will progress to be good players. But none are worth more than pick 30.

The rest look incredibly limited.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

We were talking about players whose draft year was 2018 onwards. So these players:


And yeah I maintain that looks like an absolutely dire group of under 24s. By far the worst in the AFL currently.

How many are worth a top 20 pick right now? Gibcus assuming his injuries aren't career threatening. That's it.

Ross is an ok role player. Ryan, Clarke, Banks and Brown have shown a little bit. If you get lucky 1-2 of them will progress to be good players. But none are worth more than pick 30.

The rest look incredibly limited.

Because the 2021 and 2022 groups are way too early to get any sort of reliable judgement about, you are basically talking about 3 drafts there.

2018 2019 2020.

You would be hard pressed to say Richmond did anything wrong with their 2020 hand. The 2019 draft at this stage looks to be under-performing the picks used, but the club has carried 3 of those into a 5th season on the list, so there must be some hope. 2018 was a similarly weak draft hand and similarly under-performed, but Ross looks like becoming a regular AFL player.

So what you are saying is basically nothing. We probably expect to produce about 3-4 regular AFL footballers from those 3 drafts from the picks taken. So far we have Jack Ross who has basically moved into the best 22, and Ralphsmith, Cumberland, Dow, Ryan, Rioli Jnr who remain undetermined. Let's say 1-2 of those make the grade. We are about 1 decent young player short from those 3 draft hands.

But look either said of that:

2017 - Balta, Baker, Miller

2021 - Gibcus, Brown, Sonsie, Banks, Clarke

In the 3 drafts Richmond does not look to have done so well from 2018-19-20, the lowest pick taken was pick 20, and only 2 picks were taken inside the top 40. The club got a diabolical return of pick 44 for Brandon Ellis leaving as a free agent 5 years @ just under $600kpa. Richmond expected that to be an end of 1st round pick. Richmond traded for no players in these drafts, so took all their natural picks, so it is not like the picks were burnt topping up, so to speak.

So sure, if you focus on the age groups relating to these drafts, Richmond's youth are not strong - as to be expected from such weak draft hands. If you focus on all of the other years around those years, Richmond's list of young players and its mid-career group looks a lot stronger.

All you are doing is noticing all the weakness occurs in 3 consecutive draft years and focussing exclusively on that. Most clubs will be weak in 3 of the last 8-9 draft age groups. Geelong certainly are. How many players do they even have on their whole list that would be certainly worth a top 20 pick right now?

 

[Mr Meow]

Because the 2021 and 2022 groups are way too early to get any sort of reliable judgement about, you are basically talking about 3 drafts there.

2018 2019 2020.

You would be hard pressed to say Richmond did anything wrong with their 2020 hand. The 2019 draft at this stage looks to be under-performing the picks used, but the club has carried 3 of those into a 5th season on the list, so there must be some hope. 2018 was a similarly weak draft hand and similarly under-performed, but Ross looks like becoming a regular AFL player.

So what you are saying is basically nothing. We probably expect to produce about 3-4 regular AFL footballers from those 3 drafts from the picks taken. So far we have Jack Ross who has basically moved into the best 22, and Ralphsmith, Cumberland, Dow, Ryan, Rioli Jnr who remain undetermined. Let's say 1-2 of those make the grade. We are about 1 decent young player short from those 3 draft hands.

But look either said of that:

2017 - Balta, Baker, Miller

2021 - Gibcus, Brown, Sonsie, Banks, Clarke

In the 3 drafts Richmond does not look to have done so well from 2018-19-20, the lowest pick taken was pick 20, and only 2 picks were taken inside the top 40. The club got a diabolical return of pick 44 for Brandon Ellis leaving as a free agent 5 years @ just under $600kpa. Richmond expected that to be an end of 1st round pick. Richmond traded for no players in these drafts, so took all their natural picks, so it is not like the picks were burnt topping up, so to speak.

So sure, if you focus on the age groups relating to these drafts, Richmond's youth are not strong - as to be expected from such weak draft hands. If you focus on all of the other years around those years, Richmond's list of young players and its mid-career group looks a lot stronger.

All you are doing is noticing all the weakness occurs in 3 consecutive draft years and focussing exclusively on that. Most clubs will be weak in 3 of the last 8-9 draft age groups. Geelong certainly are.

Don't forget you have pick 6 to add this year, which will probably be the best player of any of your under 23s listed.

 

[Footy Smarts]

In the 3 drafts Richmond does not look to have done so well from 2018-19-20, the lowest pick taken was pick 20, and only 2 picks were taken inside the top 40.

Indeed. Makes you wonder why they decided to trade out of the 2022 and 2023 drafts then. Basically locks in 5 of 6 drafts with almost no return. Some would call that mortgaging your future.

Most clubs will be weak in 3 of the last 8-9 draft age groups. Geelong certainly are. How many players do they even have on their whole list that would be certainly worth a top 20 pick right now?

Well we've been talking about under 23s. Holmes, SDK, Bruhn and O Henry are clearly worth top 20 picks. Clark was pick 8 last year. We've got another pick 8 to come this year.

And I wouldn't even consider giving up Conway or Dempsey for pick 20 although I understand that lack of exposure so far means they're not that well known outside Geelong.

Not a bad little group coming together.

 

[Footy Smarts]

Don't forget you have pick 6 to add this year, which will probably be the best player of any of your under 23s listed.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Indeed. Makes you wonder why they decided to trade out of the 2022 and 2023 drafts then. Basically locks in 5 of 6 drafts with almost no return. Some would call that mortgaging your future.



Well we've been talking about under 23s. Holmes, SDK, Bruhn and O Henry are clearly worth top 20 picks. Clark was pick 8 last year. We've got another pick 8 to come this year.

And I wouldn't even consider giving up Conway or Dempsey for pick 20 although I understand that lack of exposure so far means they're not that well known outside Geelong.

Not a bad little group coming together.

Lol players that literally traded for picks finishing outside the top 20 one year ago are suddenly certainly worth top 20 picks.

Richmond is trying to build a viable list. Why would they try to draft inside mids in Collier-Dawkins and Dow, those players don't come on as hoped, then ignore perfectly viable 24yo and 25yo inside mids on the market in favour of going back to the draft with no picks expected to land in the top 14 or so? Geelong were genuinely trying to trade Hopper in as well, and they would have been paying either their 2023 first round pick and some or the pick they took Jhye Clark with.

The last time Richmond has the "worst bunch" of 23 and under players was 2017. Next minute, 3 flags in 4 years. You are not in any sound position to judge the futures of Richmond's young players. Our dynasty Premiership teams were absolutely full of players who looked near worthless in their first few years on the list, or before the age of about 24 in some cases.

Grigg, Houli, Castagna, Short, Butler, Broad, McIntosh, Nankervis, Edwards, Rance, Lambert, Grimes, Townsend, Soldo, Pickett, just off the top of my head were not passing your "worth pick 20" test by age 23. I am sure it is similar with most Premiership teams. So it just isn't a test that tells you anything, even if it was applied with less bias than you have exhibited.

 

[Footy Smarts]

It seems you massively overrate draft picks.

Lol players that literally traded for picks finishing outside the top 20 one year ago are suddenly certainly worth top 20 picks.

Bruhn and Henry were both teens picks initially. They walked out of their clubs after 2 years when out of contract despite showing plenty. They were traded for pick 18 (ended as 21) and pick 25 + Tom Mitchell with some junk picks going back. In other words they were both clearly worth more than pick 20 but being OOC Geelong got good deals on both. Both improved significantly this year. So yeah they're both clearly worth top 20 picks now.

Grigg, Houli, Castagna, Short, Butler, Broad, McIntosh, Nankervis, Edwards, Rance, Lambert, Grimes, Townsend, Soldo, Pickett, just off the top of my head were not passing your "worth pick 20" test by age 23.

Rance - named in the best 22 under 22. Clearly worth a top 20 pick. Probably top 10.

Short - finished 6th in the B&F in 2018 as a 22 year old in a team that finished 2 games and % clear on top of the ladder. Clearly worth a top 20 pick. Probably top 10.

Edwards - pick 26 who finished 6th in the B&F in 2010 (his 4th season). Clearly worth a top 20 pick.

Take those out and you're left with a couple of really good players and a bunch of role players that were carried to flags by guns like Martin, Reiwoldt, Cotchin, Rance, Vlastuin, Edwards, Short, Lynch, Prestia and Bolton. Good luck finding 10 players like that coming into their prime.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

It seems you massively overrate draft picks.



Bruhn and Henry were both teens picks initially. They walked out of their clubs after 2 years when out of contract despite showing plenty. They were traded for pick 18 (ended as 21) and pick 25 + Tom Mitchell with some junk picks going back. In other words they were both clearly worth more than pick 20 but being OOC Geelong got good deals on both. Both improved significantly this year. So yeah they're both clearly worth top 20 picks now.


Rance - named in the best 22 under 22. Clearly worth a top 20 pick. Probably top 10.

Short - finished 6th in the B&F in 2018 as a 22 year old in a team that finished 2 games and % clear on top of the ladder. Clearly worth a top 20 pick. Probably top 10.

Edwards - pick 26 who finished 6th in the B&F in 2010 (his 4th season). Clearly worth a top 20 pick.

Take those out and you're left with a couple of really good players and a bunch of role players that were carried to flags by guns like Martin, Reiwoldt, Cotchin, Rance, Vlastuin, Edwards, Short, Lynch, Prestia and Bolton. Good luck finding 10 players like that coming into their prime.

You are quoting players making the 22 under 22 team as a 22yo and 6th in the b&f in a cellar dweller team and another 6th b&f as if those things automatically make you worth a top 20 pick. Butler was named for the second time in the 22 under 22 team in 2018 and was traded a year later for a pick in the 60's. Short finished 9th in the b & f in 2018, not 6th, and got 1 Brownlow vote and 3 coaches votes. He had a decent season but that doesn't mean he trades for a top 20 pick. Pretty certain he would have been worth about pick 30 if traded at that time. Edwards got 6 coaches votes in 2010 and 0 Brownlow votes. You are not attracting a top 20 pick for that, just because you finished 6th in the b&f of a weak team after playing every game.

Have a look through some top 6 B & F finishes in 2023 and tell me it gets you traded for a top 20 pick:

Crows - Hinge 5th, Murphy 6th
Blues - Newman 2nd, Acres 6th
Bombers - Langford 2nd, Martin 6th
Geelong - Atkins 2nd, Miers 3rd, Z Guthrie 4th
Hawks - Nash 3rd, Worpel 4th
Roos - Scott 3rd
Eagles - Duggan 3rd, Hunt 4th, Williams 6th


So you are on the wrong track with all that I think. You would be lucky to get a top 20 pick for any of those players, let alone all of them. Finishing 6th or wherever in your club's b&f probably says you are 6th best of the players who played every game, or almost every game. You could be as low as your club's 15th best player and do that.

By the way, Geelong gave up the near worthless Cooper Stephens and a pick that ended up being 28 for Henry, Mitchell was not Geelong's player to trade. Players like Bruhn and Henry are worth fringe top 20 picks at best, and that is about what both traded for. You don't automatically get a good deal on a player because he is out of contract, unless you have other things in your favour like the threat of the PSD. You might need to pay overs for a contracted player you really want but that is a different matter.

 

[Mr Meow]

You are quoting players making the 22 under 22 team as a 22yo and 6th in the b&f in a cellar dweller team and another 6th b&f as if those things automatically make you worth a top 20 pick. Butler was named for the second time in the 22 under 22 team in 2018 and was traded a year later for a pick in the 60's. Short finished 9th in the b & f in 2018, not 6th, and got 1 Brownlow vote and 3 coaches votes. He had a decent season but that doesn't mean he trades for a top 20 pick. Pretty certain he would have been worth about pick 30 if traded at that time. Edwards got 6 coaches votes in 2010 and 0 Brownlow votes. You are not attracting a top 20 pick for that, just because you finished 6th in the b&f of a weak team after playing every game.

Have a look through some top 6 B & F finishes in 2023 and tell me it gets you traded for a top 20 pick:

Crows - Hinge 5th, Murphy 6th
Blues - Newman 2nd, Acres 6th
Bombers - Langford 2nd, Martin 6th
Geelong - Atkins 2nd, Miers 3rd, Z Guthrie 4th
Hawks - Nash 3rd, Worpel 4th
Roos - Scott 3rd
Eagles - Duggan 3rd, Hunt 4th, Williams 6th


So you are on the wrong track with all that I think. You would be lucky to get a top 20 pick for any of those players, let alone all of them. Finishing 6th or wherever in your club's b&f probably says you are 6th best of the players who played every game, or almost every game. You could be as low as your club's 15th best player and do that.

Geez you are getting desperate mate. Honestly comical to see the mental gymnastics you're having to perform.

 

[Footy Smarts]

You are quoting players making the 22 under 22 team as a 22yo and 6th in the b&f in a cellar dweller team and another 6th b&f as if those things automatically make you worth a top 20 pick. Butler was named for the second time in the 22 under 22 team in 2018 and was traded a year later for a pick in the 60's. Short finished 9th in the b & f in 2018, not 6th, and got 1 Brownlow vote and 3 coaches votes. He had a decent season but that doesn't mean he trades for a top 20 pick. Pretty certain he would have been worth about pick 30 if traded at that time. Edwards got 6 coaches votes in 2010 and 0 Brownlow votes. You are not attracting a top 20 pick for that, just because you finished 6th in the b&f of a weak team after playing every game.

Have a look through some top 6 B & F finishes in 2023 and tell me it gets you traded for a top 20 pick:

Crows - Hinge 5th, Murphy 6th
Blues - Newman 2nd, Acres 6th
Bombers - Langford 2nd, Martin 6th
Geelong - Atkins 2nd, Miers 3rd, Z Guthrie 4th
Hawks - Nash 3rd, Worpel 4th
Roos - Scott 3rd
Eagles - Duggan 3rd, Hunt 4th, Williams 6th


So you are on the wrong track with all that I think. You would be lucky to get a top 20 pick for any of those players, let alone all of them. Finishing 6th or wherever in your club's b&f probably says you are 6th best of the players who played every game, or almost every game. You could be as low as your club's 15th best player and do that.

By the way, Geelong gave up the near worthless Cooper Stephens and a pick that ended up being 28 for Henry, Mitchell was not Geelong's player to trade. Players like Bruhn and Henry are worth fringe top 20 picks at best, and that is about what both traded for. You don't automatically get a good deal on a player because he is out of contract, unless you have other things in your favour like the threat of the PSD. You might need to pay overs for a contracted player you really want but that is a different matter.

So let me get this straight.

Top 6 finishers in B&Fs as 21-22 year olds and 22 under 22 members aren't that great. Meanwhile Richmond's current 23 and under players are good despite every single one of them being dropped to the VFL this year.

Ok

 

[Meteoric Rise]

So let me get this straight.

Top 6 finishers in B&Fs as 21-22 year olds and 22 under 22 members aren't that great. Meanwhile Richmond's current 23 and under players are good despite every single one of them being dropped to the VFL this year.

Ok

You are telling the story. Your story is that if your kids aren't worth top 20 draft picks they aren't any good. I just showed you a triple Premiership team that contained about at least 18 players that would not have met your criteria by age 23.

Our current 23 and under group are not known for certain to be good or bad. They are rated below loads of other teams young brigades currently, but as I showed, it doesn't mean a lot when other similarly low-rated young players went on to form the vast majority of a triple flag team and this all took place at the same club within the last 7 seasons. You are making your judgements way too early for them to hold any weight. Almost all young players go through their ups and downs during their first 5-6 seasons before they mature fully. And you simply never really know how good they are going to be until they mature fully. Someone like Holmes looks a good prospect for Geelong, but not more so than Graham did for us in his early years. What Geelong has that Richmond doesn't is 1-2 young inside mids with a bit of explosive capacity and DeKoning. But if you look at a slightly older group of still young players, we have Balta and Bolton, the latter of whom is already a proven top 10 in the AFL level talent, none of yours are anywhere near that at this stage.

 

[Fadge]

But if you look at a slightly older group of still young players, we have Balta and Bolton, the latter of whom is already a proven top 10 in the AFL level talent....

You're hilarious.

Did you mean top 100?

 

[Meteoric Rise]

You're hilarious.

Did you mean top 100?

You have Bolton not in your top 100 players in the AFL?

 

[Fadge]

You have Bolton not in your top 100 players in the AFL?

Well he's certainly nowhere near my top 10 (or that of any other balanced, astute judge of football).

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Well he's certainly nowhere near my top 10 (or that of any other balanced, astute judge of football).

Ok. Where are you separately ranking him exactly amongst AFL footballers based on:

1. performance over the last 2 seasons, and

2. trade value if every player in the competition was spilled right now?

Good to know you are purporting to speak for all balanced and astute judges of football now Fadge, that is very new. All I have ever seen from you is you speaking for all jaundiced, biased judges of football. And what a fine spokesman you have been for those individuals as well.

 

[Fadge]

Ok. Where are you separately ranking him exactly amongst AFL footballers based on:

1. performance over the last 2 seasons, and

2. trade value if every player in the competition was spilled right now?

Good to know you are purporting to speak for all balanced and astute judges of football now Fadge, that is very new. All I have ever seen from you is you speaking for all jaundiced, biased judges of football. And what a fine spokesman you have been for those individuals as well.

'Performance over the last 2 seasons' - here are players who have undisputedly performed better than Bolton over your cherry picked past two seasons - M. Bontempelli, C. Petracca, L. Neale, H. Andrews, J. Dunkley, E. Gulden, Z. Butters, C. Rozee, N. Daicos, D. Moore, J. Crisp, T. Stewart, Z. Merrett, C. Curnow, T. Greene, J. Sicily.

There's 16 without even thinking about it.

There would be another 20 or so - including Cripps, Oliver, Gawn, Libba, Walsh, etc. - who have been better than Bolton over the course of Bolton's career.

20 of those 36 would be drafted before Bolton if a draft was done tomorrow, with another dozen or so - including Ugle-Hagen, M. King, Larkey and the like - who have been lesser performed but would be picked ahead of him.

So he's outside the top 30 in performance over his career, and outside the top 30 if a draft was redone tomorrow.

You're deluded.