Creationism WebSite

[Nigmeister]

Originally posted by RaMa
In your very first post on this topic you said that common sense prooves God. That is a lie.

Don't make statements you can't back up.

Your hypocracy is astounding. Why doesn't common sense proove God? Where is your proof? looks like you have also just made a statement you can't back up. Feel free to deny this, but don't do so without offering the proof you demand of others.

 

[Nigmeister]

Stop demanding proof for God, and calling us ignorant and only relying on faith. In truth, it is you who rely on faith much more than we do.

Your faith is that evolution, against which the odds of likelihood are overwhelming happends and is still happening. That a world of incredible complexity and wonder happened by pure chance.

Evolution itself is a kind of proof for God, because without divine influence, there is no way for one species to turn into another, even over 20 billion years. No mutatin ever creates information - only ever desroys it - so even if we are evolving, it is only because something greater than us is causing us to.

Take the human eyeball. No human camera is as powerful or incredible. How can such an object be formed by chance and luck? To the evolutionist, it is a stumbling block, to the creationist, further proof.
And how can evolution explain emotion, feelings, spiritual desires and love? How can love evolve. Once again, you can never explain it, but the creationist has te answer.

Examine the evidence again without bias, and tell me, really, which one is more believable. I think the heart of the matter is that humanity (myself included) hates to admit that there could be anything greater than itself.

 

[otaku]

Originally posted by Nigmeister
Your hypocracy is astounding. Why doesn't common sense proove God? Where is your proof? looks like you have also just made a statement you can't back up. Feel free to deny this, but don't do so without offering the proof you demand of others.

god : by definition he is a merciful god, a loving god.

proof he doesnt exist (using common sense):

war, rape, incest, murder, drought, floods, AIDS, perstilence, Ebola, etc etc etc...

proof he does exist:

...

now, lets see what you can come up with

 

[otaku]

Originally posted by Nigmeister
Stop demanding proof for God, and calling us ignorant and only relying on faith. In truth, it is you who rely on faith much more than we do.

no, actually - relgion id based entirely on faith.

science is based on facts

Your faith is that evolution, against which the odds of likelihood are overwhelming happends and is still happening. That a world of incredible complexity and wonder happened by pure chance.

Evolution itself is a kind of proof for God, because without divine influence, there is no way for one species to turn into another, even over 20 billion years. No mutatin ever creates information - only ever desroys it - so even if we are evolving, it is only because something greater than us is causing us to.

thats your opinion. That is not fact. That will never be fact.

Take the human eyeball. No human camera is as powerful or incredible. How can such an object be formed by chance and luck? To the evolutionist, it is a stumbling block, to the creationist, further proof.

It all depends on how you look at it (baddoom tish). The eye evolved from a single light receptive cell.

The eye was not the final plan. it was not the destination of the evolution. The problm creationist have with evolution is that they think that it is impossible toget to this point by chance. It isnt impossible. It may be difficult, but not impossible.

There was no ultimate plan that said "the eye shall be able to do this" it was developed in accordance with the needs of the species.

That is why redators and prey have differing abilities when it comes to vision.

And how can evolution explain emotion, feelings, spiritual desires and love? How can love evolve. Once again, you can never explain it, but the creationist has te answer.

tell me what you belive love to be. Then you give me the creationist answer to love, and why it is part of us..

Examine the evidence again without bias, and tell me, really, which one is more believable. I think the heart of the matter is that humanity (myself included) hates to admit that there could be anything greater than itself.

i dont hate to admit there are things greater than i am. There may very well be a god...there is just no way there is a god that is created in humankinds image.

i think the heart of the matter is that humans need to have things explainable. And the easiest way to do that is by magic.

"i dont know how it does it, it must be god"

 

[Nigmeister]

Originally posted by otaku
god : by definition he is a merciful god, a loving god.

proof he doesnt exist (using common sense):

war, rape, incest, murder, drought, floods, AIDS, perstilence, Ebola, etc etc etc...

proof he does exist:

...

Who said that God was merciful and loving? How do we know that out values of love and mercy are the same as his? When has the existence of God depended on one man's expectation of his personality.

God doesn't exist only to make our lives nice and happy. If he did, then he would be, in effect, less than us, and thus not God.

Many of these things listed above are not God's fault - they are man's fault. Why is God required to constantly fix the mistakes that we make?
Christianity offers a further explanation - sin. From the first sin, the world became less perfect and allowed natural and man made disasters to occur. This was our fault, not God's.

The fact bad things happen does not deny his existence. The fact that we are able to press on and thrive despite these disasters - that is the power of my God. Don't blame God for the flood and forget about the rainbow.

 

[otaku]

Originally posted by Nigmeister
Who said that God was merciful and loving? How do we know that out values of love and mercy are the same as his? When has the existence of God depended on one man's expectation of his personality.

God doesn't exist only to make our lives nice and happy. If he did, then he would be, in effect, less than us, and thus not God.

Many of these things listed above are not God's fault - they are man's fault. Why is God required to constantly fix the mistakes that we make?
Christianity offers a further explanation - sin. From the first sin, the world became less perfect and allowed natural and man made disasters to occur. This was our fault, not God's.

The fact bad things happen does not deny his existence. The fact that we are able to press on and thrive despite these disasters - that is the power of my God. Don't blame God for the flood and forget about the rainbow.

The christian faith constantly portays god as a merciful and loving god. so now you are telling me that that isnt the god they mean?

f we cant go by the "holy books" of the religions, how can we even know god exists? They are the only thing that tell us he is around.

God is omnipotent and omniscient.

Therefore anything he creates must be perfect by definition. Therefore he intended to create evil in the world.

Why should we worship a god that is evil?

ok, none of this has anything to do with common sense anyway. it has to do with the way you were taught.

Show me common sense reasons why god exists.

 

[The invisible mullet]

"Therefore anything he creates must be perfect by definition. Therefore he intended to create evil in the world."

I don't think scripture ever assumes that the creation of the world was "perfect" even if it was good. God didn't intend to create evil in the world but did intend to give humans free will to make their own way. One of the side effects of giving us this freedom are the evils that are as old as the murder of Abel.

 

[otaku]

Originally posted by The invisible mullet
"Therefore anything he creates must be perfect by definition. Therefore he intended to create evil in the world."

I don't think scripture ever assumes that the creation of the world was "perfect" even if it was good. God didn't intend to create evil in the world but did intend to give humans free will to make their own way. One of the side effects of giving us this freedom are the evils that are as old as the murder of Abel.

so, simply put, god is fallible.

this goes against everything that the christian faith belives about their god.

how can an omniscient being be fallible?

It makes no sense.

 

[Nigmeister]

Originally posted by otaku
no, actually - relgion id based entirely on faith.

science is based on facts

Really? You are separating these two fields, which are not neccecarily separate. My religion is incredibally based of facts. You think that i believe just because i "feel" i should, or because i saw a "sign"? No, there is evidence that supports my beliefs, for example, try the creation science website. These are intelligent scientists who have found that the evidence supports a young, created world. For them (and me) religion only helps to explain the world, not hinders.
Don't judge all christians by blind fanatics who think science is evil, etc...

Originally posted by otaku
It all depends on how you look at it (baddoom tish). The eye evolved from a single light receptive cell.
The eye was not the final plan. it was not the destination of the evolution. The problm creationist have with evolution is that they think that it is impossible toget to this point by chance. It isnt impossible. It may be difficult, but not impossible.

There was no ultimate plan that said "the eye shall be able to do this" it was developed in accordance with the needs of the species. That is why redators and prey have differing abilities when it comes to vision.

Show us your proof of this.
Besides, your point can just as easily prove my argument:
'The eye is a masterpiece of God. God created the eye because he knew that it would be needed for a working world. He developed it in accordance with our needs. He also saw that different creatures will need different sight capabilities, thus he created different versions of the eye. That is why predators and prey have differing abilities when it comes to vision.'

Originally posted by otaku
tell me what you belive love to be. Then you give me the creationist answer to love, and why it is part of us..

First tell me how an evolutionist can explain love, and i will tell you what i believe love to be.

Wouldn't it be nice to be born with a completely unbiased viewpoint so we could actually examine the evidence without having already made up our mind. We're all guilty of that.

 

[Nigmeister]

Originally posted by otaku
The christian faith constantly portays god as a merciful and loving god. so now you are telling me that that isnt the god they mean?

For one, i was only saying "what if", not "it is".

Next, the image a lot of Christians give is of a big santa claus in the sky, laughing all the time and giving presents to the nice people.

Just because he's merciful and loving doesn't make him mr happy. He's also a just God. This means that he must judge us for our actions, which deserve Hell.

And what created evil? I can't answer that question, but i like a "Lord of the rings" approach. Orcs were made in mockery of elves - a dark side, so to speak, so likewise, evil is a mockery of Good, hate of love, death of life, etc...
However to go beyond that is HEAVY theology, and over my head.

 

[Nigmeister]

Originally posted by otaku
so, simply put, god is fallible.

this goes against everything that the christian faith belives about their god.

how can an omniscient being be fallible?

It makes no sense.

I personally do not really believe much in human free will. However, i also don't understand why God allowed us to fall into sin. My understanding is that God let it happen, he knew it would happen, but it was still our fault - because we did it.

God is not fallible - our understanding of him is.

 

[The invisible mullet]

But the Christian God is also a forgiving God so even though we may stray from the path we may seek forgiveness for our sins.

 

[otaku]

Originally posted by Nigmeister
Really? You are separating these two fields, which are not neccecarily separate. My religion is incredibally based of facts. You think that i believe just because i "feel" i should, or because i saw a "sign"? No, there is evidence that supports my beliefs, for example, try the creation science website. These are intelligent scientists who have found that the evidence supports a young, created world. For them (and me) religion only helps to explain the world, not hinders.
Don't judge all christians by blind fanatics who think science is evil, etc...

no, i have actually looked around a creationist scientist website, and saw nothing but psuedo science there. No offence, but they definately didnt follow anything that i recognised as "good scientific procedures"

Show us your proof of this.
Besides, your point can just as easily prove my argument:
'The eye is a masterpiece of God. God created the eye because he knew that it would be needed for a working world. He developed it in accordance with our needs. He also saw that different creatures will need different sight capabilities, thus he created different versions of the eye. That is why predators and prey have differing abilities when it comes to vision.'

there is no proof for the evolution of the eye as such. never claimed there was. There are however theories that fit with the known world.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/library/01/1/l_011_01.html http://www.geocities.com/evolvedthinking/evolution_of_the_eye.htm

plenty more like this. make sure you read them eh?

First tell me how an evolutionist can explain love, and i will tell you what i believe love to be.

Wouldn't it be nice to be born with a completely unbiased viewpoint so we could actually examine the evidence without having already made up our mind. We're all guilty of that.

love is a physiological reaction to a hormonal release. As i have stated before (a while ago in another thread) there are ways of proving this:

1) anecdotal - take to a raver, who takes Ecstacy. They will tell you of feeling love for everyone. This is artifically induced by the MDMA.

2) by study - go check out your biochemical pathways, and you will find how MDMA causes the release of seratonin into the brain. This induces a feeling of love and "goodwill" in people

3) experience - go take an eccy.

 

[otaku]

Originally posted by Nigmeister
I personally do not really believe much in human free will. However, i also don't understand why God allowed us to fall into sin. My understanding is that God let it happen, he knew it would happen, but it was still our fault - because we did it.

God is not fallible - our understanding of him is.

so he builds us fallible, then punishes us when we fail...

hrmmmm...lovely god you guys worship

 

[RaMa]

Stop demanding proof for God, and calling us ignorant and only relying on faith.

Why? The quest for truth in science is the basis of everything. Without proof there cannot certainty of any truth.

No mutatin ever creates information - only ever desroys it - so even if we are evolving, it is only because something greater than us is causing us to.

This is a complete and utter ignorance of Evolution. The amount of times I have heard this is amazing.

A point mutation can occur at anywhere on the DNA sequence which can lead to a additional base mutation, which for example if the sequence of one minisatellite is AGCTGACAGCTGAC then by a mutation, wherever a GAC occurs directly after it a new base is added (for the sake of argument we'll use T) now we have AGCTGACTAGCTGACT. With this alteration a NEW protein can be produced as well as an altered one.
If this benefits the organism in it's survival and reproduction process then it will be inherited as it has been selected for.
If it dosn't benefit the organism in it's survival and reproduction process then it will not be as readily inherited as it will be selected against.

Take the human eyeball. No human camera is as powerful or incredible. How can such an object be formed by chance and luck? To the evolutionist, it is a stumbling block, to the creationist, further proof.

Why is it that ignorance is so common?

EVOLUTION is not all about chance and luck, sure it plays a part but what is inevitably inherited are the most desirable features.
The Human eye originated from a common ancestor probably as someone said as nothing more than a receptive sensory cell. This mutation was an advantage to the organism therefore this feature was inherited to the next generation as it improved the success of survival of this organism. After a period of time only the organisms with the receptive sensory cell were able to survive. Longer periods of time followed and enviroments changed, mutations occured throughout time most of which were of no neccesity of an organism and were not inherited, however one mutation was. An mutation leading to the formation of something like eyes occured, obviously with very limited vision and this was inherited as it helped the organism survive. As mutations occured over tens of thousands of years eyesight continued to increase in usefulness until it became like it is today.

As eyesight is so useful to all land animals we see them all with eyes, however dogs for example do not have as good eyesight as humans as they have not lived in environments that depended on eyesight as much as humans have had to.

 

[RaMa]

I personally do not really believe much in human free will. However, i also don't understand why God allowed us to fall into sin. My understanding is that God let it happen, he knew it would happen, but it was still our fault - because we did it.

According to your belief,
He must be fallible, he knew we would fall into sin, he created us with the power to sin and guess what, we sinned.
Why is it our fault?

If i kick a footy into someone's head then it must be the footys fault because i gave it the power to hit someone.

 

[lenny&carl]

Sensible people ask for proof of God, but I think such proof is impossible. Any miracle, any omen, any blessed feeling, any apparation.... you name it, they could all be produced by a 2nd or 3rd rate god, maybe just the local god of the galaxy - not the all powerful creator of the universe. If it was just the god of the local galaxy, s/he'd just be one of a trillion bazillion gods, not the Big G.

Also, any of these signs could probably be produced by your run-of-the-mill alien in his hotrod with the fancy holograph machine and the aerosol psychedelics. So proof of God isn't coming anytime soon. This alien explanation would always be prefferable, because it isn't supernatural...therefore it's in agreement with our strongest theories.

 

[otaku]

Originally posted by Chiz

The thing is, that even if I am wrong, I can't lose. If the God I believe in exists, then I know my destination - heaven. If there is no God, what have I got to lose - there is no final destination. However, for those of you who do not believe in God, if you are wrong, you are guaranteed eternal suffering (or at least reincarnation as a beetle). Even if you are right, you do not gain anything - there will be no rewards from a God that didn't exist.

this drivel that chiz posted reminded me of a Doglas Adams interview.

here is the important part in relation to that sentiment :

"If it turns out that I’ve been wrong all along, and there is in fact a god, and if it further turned out that this kind of legalistic, cross-your-fingers-behind-your-back, Clintonian hair-splitting impressed him, then I think I would chose not to worship him anyway."

That quote really sums it up for me.

 

[RaMa]

The thing is, that even if I am wrong, I can't lose.

Pffft, what do you mean you can't lose.

If you're wrong then you have wasted thousands of hours of your life worshipping nothing. That is a loss.

 

[mellowyellow]

Originally posted by RaMa
Pffft, what do you mean you can't lose.

If you're wrong then you have wasted thousands of hours of your life worshipping nothing. That is a loss.

Plus all the delights and pleasures that would be considered forbiddden fruit by looney evangelicals.

 

[Chiz]

Originally posted by RaMa

If you're wrong then you have wasted thousands of hours of your life worshipping nothing. That is a loss.

This is exactly where there is a misunderstanding of what Christianity is all about and probably the reason that most people choose not to follow it. They say "what if I'm wrong? - I waste my life." By your above comment RaMa, you are saying that if there is no God, then I have thrown my life down the drain.

I'll be honest here - there have been times in my life when I have been bored of say going to church and participating in Christian-related activities, and where I haven't given anything to God and haven't gotten anything out of my time. But when I do worship God, I certainly get something out of it - I can't explain it, but because you give to God, He gives you something back, to empower you in many ways. It is much more than just a feeling. If I am wrong and there is no God, then I may have been worshipping nothing, but I'm still getting something out of it - if you like RaMa you can try and explain using the theory of evolution.

All I can say is that I'm happy with who I am and what I do - God or no God, I'm happy worshipping Him, and that time certainly doesn't feel like a loss.

Originally posted by mellowyellow

Plus all the delights and pleasures that would be considered forbiddden fruit by looney evangelicals.

Another common misunderstanding. Christianity doesn't mean saying goodbye to delights and pleasures, it offers a better way.

Let me get one thing straight - if you are a Christian, there are no "set of rules" that you need to obey to acheive salvation, unlike other religions. God asks us to stay away from sin - firstly because that pleases Him, and secondly because we do not acheive anything from it - most of the time it puts us backwards. Let's have a look at a couple of the world's "delights and pleasures" that we Christians consider as sin. I apologise to those who do not live like those I am about to describe, as I am making a generalisation.

1. Getting drunk - this offers maybe a few hours of pleasure (don't ask me how it is pleasureable, but anyway). But with that pleasure comes suffering - firstly with a hangover the next day, secondly the affect it has on your life - potentially death. Also can cause addiction, and certainly empties the wallet. The devil offers pleasures at a price, whereas God offers them for free.

2. Sexual sins (ie premarital sex, adultery, homosexuality etc) - once again, this is pleasureable at the time. But there are risks involved - unwanted pregnancies - can completely ruin the life a young teenage girl, STI's (or STD's) - which can lead to death, guilt, the desire for more and more, unsatisfication etc. God's way is better - ie waiting until you're married, and only having one sexual partner. You may argue that it would be absurd to wait that long, but as far as I am concerned, the longer you wait for something you desire, the better it is, as you desire it even more - and thus it WILL satisfy you. You want have to worry about catching any disease or anything. Although I've never had sex, those I know who have had sex outside of marriage, say that it is enjoyable, but overrated - Why is it overrated? It isn't - they just haven't experienced it in the best way possible. Saying hi to God doesn't say goodbye to sex, it says goodbye to bad sex, and hello to good sex (but not straight away).

Sometimes it sounds like too much to give up, but let me tell you - you receive so much more than you give.

 

[RaMa]

This is exactly where there is a misunderstanding of what Christianity is all about and probably the reason that most people choose not to follow it. They say "what if I'm wrong? - I waste my life." By your above comment RaMa, you are saying that if there is no God, then I have thrown my life down the drain.


If I am wrong and there is no God, then I may have been worshipping nothing, but I'm still getting something out of it - if you like RaMa you can try and explain using the theory of evolution.

If there is No God what are you getting out of it? If there is no God you get a feeling of something there when it is not, it is a figment of your imagination, a false hope. Then you have been living a lie.

Your line about trying to explain your feeling with the theory of evolution is so unbelievably stupid it is not even funny.
It's like saying try to explain how to play a cover drive with the Theory of Relativity. You just wouldn't because they are unrelated.
Your feeling is imaginary, whereas the Evolution can be observed. Both are totally unrelated.

*The following was based on the point of, if there is no god.*

 

[skilts]

Originally posted by Chiz
.

All I can say is that I'm happy with who I am and what I do - God or no God, I'm happy worshipping Him, and that time certainly doesn't feel like a loss.

Herein lies the root of your problem. You labour under a misconception that life is about happiness. More particularly, your happiness. What a transient, shallow basis on which to judge the success or otherwise of your life.

Ask yourself if you will ever be truly happy. Then ask yourself if you'll know if you are. Then ask yourself if your happiness has been achieved at someone else's expense. Then acknowledge this is your only chance at life and realise you may be missing the point. By trying to reduce life to a state of 'happiness', you are having life pass you by, while you try to make it stand still.

To adopt your attitude, I'd want to have it in writing that my death wasn't going to be painful, at the very least. Preferably, I'd receive a gilt-edged undertaking that somebody else was going to do my dying for me. Now that's something worth giving up life for, which is what you're doing.

In your case, it may be best to get someone else to do your living for you. You seem to be hopelessly committed to the idea of another world, which bears no relation to this.

I wish you well, and look forward to you returning post-mortem, to let us know how it all went and whether the convictions which rule your life were justified. Should be a doddle for a person who achieves such a higher plane. Unfortunately, given your track record in this life, you may suffer from a lack of credibility.

 

[raskolnikov]

Chiz - on what basis do you say that homosexuality is sin. Recent research says that gay people are more than likely born that way and it is just a different variation in the wide range of human sexualities.

That's what I hate about fundamentalist Christianity - saying something is wrong on the basis of what was written over 2,000 years ago.

As an English Lit major at university I can tell you that there is no such thing as objectivity in the reading and writing process. To say that the Bible should be taken 100% literally is ludicrous.

 

[Dry Rot]

Originally posted by Chiz
This is exactly where there is a misunderstanding of what Christianity is all about and probably the reason that most people choose not to follow it.

Although I've never had sex... Saying hi to God doesn't say goodbye to sex, it says goodbye to bad sex, and hello to good sex (but not straight away).

No more bad sex? Where do I sign-up?

But since you haven't been drunk or got laid, you really don't know what you're talking about.