Shoenmakers

[SNAITHY]

FFS this kid is 19 years old. He is going to make mistakes, hell he might even play a poor game again this week, and maybe the week after. He is NOT a mature, hard bodied recruit of 28 that has come to the club with 150 games of experience under his belt. He is a 19 year old kid, still growing, still learning, asked to do a very difficult job against the best forwards in the comp. What do you people want, have him dumped? What the hell is he going to learn running around in the VFL? The only way to develop him is to play him against the best, and if he is still making poor decisions and stupid mistakes at 50 games, then cut him, but ffs, give him a chance.

He has gold written all over him, his potential is enormous, and I for one am excited about him and Stratton playing together for the next ten years. He reminds me so much of Harry Taylor, a tall, gangly kid who made lots of mistakes when he first came on the scene, now one of the first picked in the best team of the last 4 years.

This kid has star written all over him. I think some of us expect too much.

 

[grizzlym]

The inference was pretty obvious grizzly.

I think it's clear to all but the most deluded supporters that the coaching staff got it wrong on saturday.

As for my original question, where does Schoenmakers fit into your current best available back 6?

I'll throw mine out there for analysis.

For mine, it'll be a mix from the following players.

Talls: Gilham, Gibson and Stratton.
Smalls/Mediums: Brown, Guerra, Murphy.
Rebounders: Birchall, Ladson
Cover to run a double-team if a KPP is getting on top of us: Hodge, potentially Skipper as well.

At the moment I'd probably have Muston/Brown staying up forward in the defensive/forward role as I think in modern football your back 6 must have some creative rebounding players such as Birchall and Guerra.

If there is no match-up for Murphy then unluckily he will probably miss out.

So my back six would look like this:

Stratton/Brown* Gibson Birchall
Guerra Gilham Murphy/Brown*

*Depending on Matchups

I'd keep Ladson probably on the i/c, I don't think there is room for another KPPD on the bench, assuming we are playing Gilham, Gibson and Stratton. I also think it is possible for Hodge to drop back into the hole if we are in trouble down back.

Second tier players providing cover: Whitecross, Schoenmakers, JKT, Suckling.

The logic is this: why is he being played at all if, as some contend, he is so universally mediocre and has never played a good game?

 

[play2win]

FACT: the 22 that run out on the park each week are the BEST 22.

i'd back the hfc coaches/staff to be putting the best side on the park. hell, i'd even back matty knights to do the same at essendon (well, ok i may be prone to exaggeration).

 

[Dragz]

FACT: the 22 that run out on the park each week are the BEST 22.

The best 22 out of available players and according to matchups.

The day is pretty much here when there's no such thing as a "Best 22"

 

[m0zza]

The inference was pretty obvious grizzly.

I think it's clear to all but the most deluded supporters that the coaching staff got it wrong on saturday.

As for my original question, where does Schoenmakers fit into your current best available back 6?

I'll throw mine out there for analysis.

For mine, it'll be a mix from the following players.

Talls: Gilham, Gibson and Stratton.
Smalls/Mediums: Brown, Guerra, Murphy.
Rebounders: Birchall, Ladson
Cover to run a double-team if a KPP is getting on top of us: Hodge, potentially Skipper as well.

At the moment I'd probably have Muston/Brown staying up forward in the defensive/forward role as I think in modern football your back 6 must have some creative rebounding players such as Birchall and Guerra.

If there is no match-up for Murphy then unluckily he will probably miss out.

So my back six would look like this:

Stratton/Brown* Gibson Birchall
Guerra Gilham Murphy/Brown*

*Depending on Matchups

I'd keep Ladson probably on the i/c, I don't think there is room for another KPPD on the bench, assuming we are playing Gilham, Gibson and Stratton. I also think it is possible for Hodge to drop back into the hole if we are in trouble down back.

Second tier players providing cover: Whitecross, Schoenmakers, JKT, Suckling.

From your preferred 8 backs seven played on Saturday and you agree that Brown should have played forward.
At the risk of being "the most deluded" I agree with selecting a 7th defender on interchange particularly when Gibson (and Brown) was playing first game back from injury and would be expected to play significantly less than 100% game time. AND the option of Hodge to defence was not there with Mitchell out.

 

[m0zza]

Only seen the game once.
Apparently the lad cost us three goals.

I remember the handball intercept by Stokes for his third.
What were the other two?

 

[aussieicon91]

Maybe you're right aussieicon91, maybe Shoey is as bad as you say. But, I'm looking for a little convincing, a little bit of evidence to change my mind on the matter.

I'd agree last Saturday was pretty poor from him (though I wouldnt say he lost it for us), but that he's never played a game up to AFL standard, never played a decent game in his life ..... hmmmmm you kind of got me wondering there. I'm not quite sure Im with you.

At first, I thought maybe you didnt watch many games. Maybe you had'nt had the opportunity to watch the guy develop (which at some stage theyve all done) and so hadn't seen enough to know what you're talking about. (I did ask you about Sydney last year, and others have asked about the Dons a few weeks ago and you didnt manage a response - so I kinda was wondering?) Then I thought, like a few other posters on here maybe were as well, maybe its us with the problem. Maybe I cant judge what constitutes a decent game, and similarly maybe someone like Clarko has the same problem and keeps playing the kid.
I was wondering though, for the sake of clarity can you explain what would qualify as decent. What would Shoey have to do so you would give him a tick. Would it be something as simple as not fumbling the ball in the backline and costing us the game. I'm sure its a whole world more, but can you enlighten us.

I don't want to seem greedy, but while your at it, can you just give us an idea of who else on the list (starting with the seniors) youve noticed isnt up to scratch. I'm not sure why Shoey has been brought to our attention before for such a roasting, but Id hate for others to escape our vigilance.

I only hope we can manage to scrape together a 22 ready for the weekend.

A decent game would qualify doing things well when the team is under the pump and being able to get the team out of trouble in various tight situations - Which is what Stratton has done well so far in his short career. Schoenmakers does the opposite and panicks when his put in a confronting situation.

I thought Tom Murphy should've never been brought back into the side, but his proven me wrong. But unlike Schoenmakers, Murphy actually played acouple of decent games at the start of his career before completely going off the rails until recently.

Shaun Burgoyne hasn't played a good game either yet, given that we invested so much to get him. He isn't playing poorly, nor shouldn't be dropped, but when you see him play, you just feel that he is capable of so much more.

Haven't seen enough of Josh Gibson yet to make an informal decision but he hasn't done anything impressive in the short time that I've seen him. Simon Taylor was rubbish before he got injured and I'd only play him if we are short on ruckmen.

 

[aussieicon91]

What an absurd post.

How many kids come in as 18/19 year olds, ESPECIALLY KPPs, and perform anything better than mediocre for a season or two?

Murphy and Stratton have years more experience than Shoey, if he's not at there level by the time he's their ages, this thread will have validity.

Crows have a lot of young kids in this year, you don't expect McLeod like performances from a 19 year old kid, and you know he'll be up and down.

Stratton supposedly wasn't good enough to get a game at AFL level when he was 19 and he didn't get a game at AFL level when he was 19. The same thing should apply to Schoenmakers. It's not too hard to comprehend.

 

[aussieicon91]

The logic is this: why is he being played at all if, as some contend, he is so universally mediocre and has never played a good game?

Let's take a wild guess and say it's for his development?

 

[m0zza]

OK I got bored.

The complete list of AFL Key position players under 21 who have played ten games:
Taylor Walker Phil Davis (Crows)
Lachlan Henderson (Blues)
Tayte Pears Michael Hurley (Bombers)
Jackson Trengrove (Power)
Alex Rance Jayden Post David Astbury (Tigers)
And Ryan Schoenmakers makes ten.

It is reasonable to compare the progress of these players as a group.
It is not sensible to make comparisons with players outside this group.

 

[King Elvis]

Fwiw Stratton has 18months on Schoenmakers.

You are clearly bias though, please recognise this is not personal.

RS is not making mistakes that can be traced to his status as an 19yo KPP. He is not getting constantly monstered like Dawson was. He is making simple decision-making and disposal errors that players at senior level shouldn't be making. His defensive efforts, as has been stated many times, are fine.

The problem is that most logical fans cannot understand why he is being selected in a backline that boasts Gilham, Gibson, Brown, Stratton, Murphy, Birchall and Guerra. We don't need him defensively, and therefore we shouldn't have to suffer his errors when we have the ball.

According to the HFC website, he has 4cm and and 3kg on Stratton. 4cm and giving up kilo's to Gibson, and 1cm and giving up kilo's to Gilham; so I don't really buy into the whole size argument for keeping him in the team.

I am mate, I know Ryan, he's a sensational kid, who absolutely loves Hawthorn. He was stoked to get a recall after playing a month in Box Hill, because he felt that he had truly earned it after being in their best 3 weeks in a row.

I know it's not personal; and I appreciate the fact you generally seem to make your points clearly, without really potting him, like some others.

He definitely struggled against the Cats; but, to be fair, a hell of a lot of players do. Their strength/size/speed and intensity is frightening, and they shut him down completely, forcing him into poor decisions. Saying that, there is merit in the selection and positioning of him; Stokes/Varcoe were always going to carve him up, and they did, would've thought moving him forward or to the wing, and Brown back, would've made more sense.

As an outsider, I think it seems as though 90% of you on here have the same opinion of him (that he'll be good in the future, and time needs to be invested now), but some are expressing it positively, and some are expressing it negatively; and then the other 10% who are just flat out potting him are colouring the discussion in a negative light.

As an aside, with reference to the bulk he added in the pre-season; I don't think he's learnt to use it just yet. Remember, despite his height, some of his biggest assets as a junior were his fitness and his pace, he could beat most players to the ball, even mids, and could do it again and again.

To turn him into a KPD, he's put on, 4-6kg? And will probably need to do the same again?

Forgetting everything else, ask anybody to do that, and it's going to take them a while to adjust their game style to compensate.

 

[Ordovician]

LOL

You'd have to be blind to suggest that Schoenmakers has been anything other then below par thus far in his career - hence why so many people are calling for him to be dropped for the meantime. Open your eyes.

Ignorance? I judge on what I see, not on statistics - much like anyone else who believes that it's in the best interest of Schoenmakers development for him to be dropped back to the 2's. He clearly isn't up to AFL standard at the present and keeping him in the side isn't doing his development or Hawthorn's season any favours whatsoever.

Unlike you I actually go to the games and even trot down to Box Hill to have a look at the young'uns as well.

Whereas you are making judgements purely on the basis of what the TV coverage chooses to display and that is assuming you bother to watch the replays all that closely.

Or am I wrong and you fly down to Melbourne to watch all of our homes games?

You claimed Schoey has never played a good game in his career and that is simply nonsense!

I pointed out a valid counter example which who dismissed because statistics are irrelevant compared to your magical ability to distinguish good from bad without referrence to any objective measures.

You also claimed that Schoey was gifted all of his games and I also pointed out that this was also objectively nonsense with facts to back in it up i.e. that he was actually recalled to the seniors becuase he was named in Box Hill's best three weeks running prior to the Adelaide game, and you simply ignored it because you are incapable of any form of reasoned debate or even admitting that your ill-informed opinions might actually be wrong!

Believe or not, if you had any reasonable level of English comprehension and capacity for reason you may have noted that I made no claim regarding Schoeys overall progress to date nor did I make any claim that he should not be dropped.

Thus you are the one who should open his eyes and try and read what people post rather than run off with your irrelevancies.

It wouldn't bother me if he got dropped next week as his game on Saturday was pretty dreadful and I don't remember a single poster in this thread denying this assertion!

However, what is best for his development is moot point.

If you actually got to VFL games you might realise that they are not that high standard and that there is a very large gap betwen that an AFL which is why so many youngsters have trouble making the transition. So playing at Box Hill does not do much for players development particularly forwards eg Dowler & Lisle, because the delivery into the forwards is so poor . It is a bit better development environment for midfielders and defenders.

I think at this stage a few seniors games against the weaker sides will boost his confidence and he played good to servicable games against the crows, scum and dogs, but against the elite sides e.g. cats & saints he is going to get badly exposed because he is:

i) Not a natural defender. He is really an outside half forward who is being forced into the role due to an deliberate oversight in drafting by Pelchen.

ii) Not an inside player, so in close or under pressure he is not quick enough to chose the right option and dispose of the ball quickly so he gets caught or his disposals get intercepted.

iii) Way too predictable on the field and does not disguise his intentions so good opposition can easily anticipate his next move or disposal, and catch, block, or pressure him.

iv) Actually intelligent which is the last quality that you want in a defender or a Bigfooty poster, defenders should never have more than tradesman level of intelligence ie the ability to read and write, basic numeracy skills so that they can understand that "five tackles am better than two" and the ability to follow simple instructions. Chris Langford got away with it but it was a close run thing at times.

v) Tempermentally unsuited to defence. He will worry when he makes mistakes and can "drop his head" as he is a confidence player. A good side will target players like this isolate them and then crush them like Murphy in the first scum game this year.

KPPs take a long time to develop eg Hansen, a rare few will look ok from the outset eg Hurley, Pears but they form a very small minority. Shoey is being asked to change from a very good lead up half forward prospect to become an undersized key defender in an undersized and makeshift defence and if he stumbles along the way then that is to be expected.

His development even if it succeeds, is going to be long and slow (at least another two years) and riddled with set backs.

I only hope that if it does not work out that the club will realise its mistake early enough to send him back to the forward line where he belongs, before they totally ruin him like Dowler and "he who must not be mentioned".

 

[Ordovician]

Stratton supposedly wasn't good enough to get a game at AFL level when he was 19 and he didn't get a game at AFL level when he was 19. The same thing should apply to Schoenmakers. It's not too hard to comprehend.

What a another pointless irrelevant comment.

Stratton was not on an AFL list when he was 19 so regardless of how good he was he could not get a game at AFL level!

 

[Ellis2WeightsRoom]

I am mate, I know Ryan, he's a sensational kid, who absolutely loves Hawthorn. He was stoked to get a recall after playing a month in Box Hill, because he felt that he had truly earned it after being in their best 3 weeks in a row.

I know it's not personal; and I appreciate the fact you generally seem to make your points clearly, without really potting him, like some others.

He definitely struggled against the Cats; but, to be fair, a hell of a lot of players do. Their strength/size/speed and intensity is frightening, and they shut him down completely, forcing him into poor decisions. Saying that, there is merit in the selection and positioning of him; Stokes/Varcoe were always going to carve him up, and they did, would've thought moving him forward or to the wing, and Brown back, would've made more sense.

As an outsider, I think it seems as though 90% of you on here have the same opinion of him (that he'll be good in the future, and time needs to be invested now), but some are expressing it positively, and some are expressing it negatively; and then the other 10% who are just flat out potting him are colouring the discussion in a negative light.

As an aside, with reference to the bulk he added in the pre-season; I don't think he's learnt to use it just yet. Remember, despite his height, some of his biggest assets as a junior were his fitness and his pace, he could beat most players to the ball, even mids, and could do it again and again.

To turn him into a KPD, he's put on, 4-6kg? And will probably need to do the same again?

Forgetting everything else, ask anybody to do that, and it's going to take them a while to adjust their game style to compensate.

The cats were missing Mooney, Johnson and Hawkins (who I don't think is best 22 at Geelong) and Ottens was looking very underdone. We should hardly be shaking at their forward line.

I agreed that someone should have stayed forward (and particularly on Saturday due to the cats outs and the conditions). That player could have been Brown or Muston who has shown to have talent in that role in the last few weeks. Dropping Schoenmakers and bringing in Muston, allowing Brown to play on Stokes would have been the best option IMO.

In regards to RS's junior form, alot of players have dominated junior ranks and failed to transition to elite level senior football. More players fail than succeed in making the transition.

At the start of the season, we probably needed 2 key position defenders. We traded in Gibson as a readymade KPP. Presumably the coaching staff were grooming Schoenmakers to be the other KPPD we so desperately needed. Stratton was likely seen as a calculated risk.

At the end of the day, we've filled the other post with Stratton and not Schoenmakers because he has come on phenomenally well. I don't think that there is room for 4 large defenders in the average game. Gilham is automatic selection, and Gibson has proven himself at elite level before. Stratton so far this year cannot be dropped. Therefore Schoenmakers, who until the last 3 weeks or so, has made a valuable contribution to the side considering his age is the unlucky one who should miss out.

What he needs to do is go back to the VFL and work on his skills and decision making which will come with confidence. So far everyone has been saying how terrific his attitude is; this will instill in him the knowledge that he has to earn games at hawthorn and be on the constant improve. He'll be a better player for it, he'll come back hungrier and we'll be a better team.

In the alternative, he should be played across Half-forward as the third tall. This will allow him to play without the constant fear of making a costly mistake close to opposition goal.

Having said that I am in favour of the first option.

 

[aussieicon91]

@ordivician

You don't need statistics or reference points to judge a player's performance. You just have to watch them play and watch how they perform when it counts and whenever I've seen Schoenmakers been put to the test he has seriously struggled. Sorry I can't reference back to his Essendon game, or his game against Collingwood last year because I can't recall him doing anything in that game that was worth bringing the roof down from Ethihad Stadium.

You could argue that Franklin's season this year has been almost as good as his 2008 season based on statistics. He has been good this year, but to suggest that his been as good this season as he was in 2008 would be laughable. Same goes with Gary Ablett.

I don't really see what difference it makes being at the game or watching it on television. If anything, you get a greater aspect on watching the game on television anyway.

Schoenmakers has been gifted all of his games so far, because of his development. If you can't see that then I won't bother replying to you again. Saying that his played a good game so far just shows me that you set a lower standard for what you consider is a good game. When I see him play a good game I'll admit it, but up until now I haven't seen him play one.

 

[Ellis2WeightsRoom]

OK I got bored.

The complete list of AFL Key position players under 21 who have played ten games:
Taylor Walker Phil Davis (Crows)
Lachlan Henderson (Blues)
Tayte Pears Michael Hurley (Bombers)
Jackson Trengrove (Power)
Alex Rance Jayden Post David Astbury (Tigers)
And Ryan Schoenmakers makes ten.

It is reasonable to compare the progress of these players as a group.
It is not sensible to make comparisons with players outside this group.

What does that group tell you? Walker, Pears and Hurley are probably the only walk-up selections at their repsective clubs.

Most of these players haven't developed the skills to lock up a start at their AFL clubs, the majority of which have lists which are far less talented than Hawthorns.

RS is not the exception to this group of players, he is the norm.

Good post

 

[QuietB]

What the HFC are doing to Shoenmakers now will make him a star in a few years time just like it made Buddy a star and fast tracked Roughead and Lewis and Birchall and Ellis and players before them like Bateman and Osborne and Ladson and so on and so on.

I think you will find that Shoenmakers fills a critical spot on the Hawks list. In a perfect world one of Thorp or Dowler or Roughhead would be filling that spot but that didn't quite work out for one reason or another.

If the Hawks are going to have continued success Shoenmakers has to develop, has to stand up and then has to make CHB his own.

 

[aussieicon91]

What a another pointless irrelevant comment.

Stratton was not on an AFL list when he was 19 so regardless of how good he was he could not get a game at AFL level!

Well duh.

 

[go hawks!!!]

@ordivician



I don't really see what difference it makes being at the game or watching it on tv .

There is a huge difference. I go to every game and watch the zones/structures/patterns which you just donot see on tv. It definitely helps to understand the game.

 

[Ellis2WeightsRoom]

What the HFC are doing to Shoenmakers now will make him a star in a few years time just like it made Buddy a star and fast tracked Roughead and Lewis and Birchall and Ellis and players before them like Bateman and Osborne and Ladson and so on and so on.

I think you will find that Shoenmakers fills a critical spot on the Hawks list. In a perfect world one of Thorp or Dowler or Roughhead would be filling that spot but that didn't quite work out for one reason or another.

If the Hawks are going to have continued success Shoenmakers has to develop, has to stand up and then has to make CHB his own.

At the start of the season I would have agreed that for the Hawks to have a successful year then Schoenmakers has to develop, stand up and make CHB his own.

Unfortunately for him, Stratton has come from nowhere and made CHB his own.

It didn't necessarily have to be RS, someone just needed to step up and grab CHB by the back of the neck. Stratton did.

Our backline is now good. If Schoenmakers wants CHB back, fight for it in the VFL. A few good games and he'll be putting pressure on Gibson for a spot.

 

[King Elvis]

What does that group tell you? Walker, Pears and Hurley are probably the only walk-up selections at their repsective clubs.

Most of these players haven't developed the skills to lock up a start at their AFL clubs, the majority of which have lists which are far less talented than Hawthorns.

RS is not the exception to this group of players, he is the norm.

Good post

Phil Davis for the Crows as well, he's been very, very good for us; but, again, he's got Rutten, Goodwin, Stevens and Bock (when fit) playing around him.

Shoey is being asked to change from a very good lead up half forward prospect to become an undersized key defender in an undersized and makeshift defence and if he stumbles along the way then that is to be expected.

That's it for mine. I'd love to see Roughy at CHB for a couple of games, and Schoey on the HFF. Let him build his confidence and get into the games up there, and use his fitness to constantly work himself into the game.

It'll be really interesting to see the path they take with him, but if Stratton can lock down CHB, I think you'd look at Schoey next year playing more of a Sam Fisher type role; good defensive player who helps his team-mates out, but is equally as important in the quarterback and running role.

Fitness and Pace are (were) two of his main strengths, turning him into a big, strong, slow KPD makes sense when the team desperately needs that type of player; but if they don't, he'd be better elsewhere.

 

[Collins-Langford-Ayres]

People have their opinions. Not sure why some are getting so upset by it.

Schoey will be a very good footballer at some stage. Had a poor game against the Cats and was probably not suited to his match-ups.

He'll be better for it.

If only Youngy drilled that goal in the last minute.

 

[Goody1971]

People have their opinions. Not sure why some are getting so upset by it.

Schoey will be a very good footballer at some stage. Had a poor game against the Cats and was probably not suited to his match-ups.

He'll be better for it.

If only Youngy drilled that goal in the last minute.

Geez, the number of times I have thought that this week!!

 

[Messenger]

If only Youngy drilled that goal in the last minute.

Stop it! You're ruining the narrative......

 

[rjballs]

Cant blame the kid for the loss. But the jury is out on whether he can develop the reflex and mind speed that is needed at AFL level today. Hate to say it but De Ja Vu Dawson.