Opinion Richmonds future direction with Hardwick

[tugga]

I can't belive he was staggered at the improvement of the rest of the teams.
he just admitted to screwing up by underestimating the opposition. That is in itself staggering. He faield to prepare for this season adequately. He thought that an elimination final loss against a team that finished 9th and would elect to play us 22 times each season was good enough for natural improvement. He loaded up on hasbeens and thought we were 'cherry ripe'. meanwhile the other teams improved, we stagnanted and look where we are.
It must be the Essendon blood in him. Deny, deny, deny.
I'm resigned to the fact that he will be there next year. I'm not happy about it.

 

[Goldust]

I can't belive he was staggered at the improvement of the rest of the teams.
he just admitted to screwing up by underestimating the opposition. That is in itself staggering. He faield to prepare for this season adequately. He thought that an elimination final loss against a team that finished 9th and would elect to play us 22 times each season was good enough for natural improvement. He loaded up on hasbeens and thought we were 'cherry ripe'. meanwhile the other teams improved, we stagnanted and look where we are.
It must be the Essendon blood in him. Deny, deny, deny.
I'm resigned to the fact that he will be there next year. I'm not happy about it.

That's the smoking gun when it comes to Hardwick .... he didn't adequately prepare for the season. While everyone was talking up season 2014 as one of the more even seasons in decades, with improvement predicted especially from the bottom end from the likes of the Bulldogs, Melbourne and GWS, Hardwick was in denial. 'We have a good base and we'll improve'. North Melbourne did what we did in 2012 and lost a series of close matches, so they went out and got Dal Santo and drafted a father-son McDonald, who they play, while we went out and collected a half dozen small forwards in the national and rookie drafts, totally ignoring the backline and midfield. I don't normally place much, if any, emphasis on pre-season form, but that game against Melbourne in Roos' debut was the wake up call of all wake up calls, we just didn't heed it and thought 'everything's fine'.
If I was Hardwick, I'd gag myself. Didn't see the improvement coming from other teams, didn't see the impact Miles would have coming .... clueless!

 

[NUFC Tiger]

From this article I read earlier today:

And Hardwick warned he would continue to coach for the present, desperate to bank late-season wins and adamant he would not gift games to the next wave of Tiger cubs.

Speaking before Friday night’s trip to face West Coast, Hardwick said the Tigers were better than their standing of 12th and had been a victim of the league’s new-found evenness.

“We’ll play the year out accordingly. It’s no good preparing for next year, when we’re still playing for this year as far as we’re concerned,” Hardwick said yesterday.

“We’ve got to continue to get wins on the board, continue to earn respect of our fans back because we’ve been really disappointing.”

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/a...-start-to-season/story-fni5f9jb-1226997807816

I can only speak for myself but I actually find Dimma' stance/attitude very disappointing to read. I get where he is coming from but I'd much rather see us giving opportunities to the next generation pressing for a game than playing guys who might not have much upside/long term value to our list.

Not saying we should go out and lose but after our disappointing season so far, for me at least, I'd like to see some things to give me hope for the future - next season and beyond. Beating up on bottom teams in the final few games is all well and good but I'd rather do it with an eye on the future, especially when you have guys like McBean, Lennon, Dea, Gordon and McDonough (and even Darrou) who have been impressing in recent weeks.

 

[DrMike]

From this article I read earlier today:

And Hardwick warned he would continue to coach for the present, desperate to bank late-season wins and adamant he would not gift games to the next wave of Tiger cubs.

Speaking before Friday night’s trip to face West Coast, Hardwick said the Tigers were better than their standing of 12th and had been a victim of the league’s new-found evenness.

“We’ll play the year out accordingly. It’s no good preparing for next year, when we’re still playing for this year as far as we’re concerned,” Hardwick said yesterday.

“We’ve got to continue to get wins on the board, continue to earn respect of our fans back because we’ve been really disappointing.”

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/a...-start-to-season/story-fni5f9jb-1226997807816

I can only speak for myself but I actually find Dimma' stance/attitude very disappointing to read. I get where he is coming from but I'd much rather see us giving opportunities to the next generation pressing for a game than playing guys who might not have much upside/long term value to our list.

Not saying we should go out and lose but after our disappointing season so far, for me at least, I'd like to see some things to give me hope for the future - next season and beyond. Beating up on bottom teams in the final few games is all well and good but I'd rather do it with an eye on the future, especially when you have guys like McBean, Lennon, Dea, Gordon and McDonough (and even Darrou) who have been impressing in recent weeks.

Just to counter that (read the whole article obviously):

“Jake is probably about two or three weeks away (from resuming playing following injury) . . . We’ll see how he goes, but he’s got to earn his spot, also.

“We don’t really give away jumpers here. We’re past that stage of our footy club.

“So, he’s got to be playing well.

“We’ve got some players that are playing well at a lower level, so it’d be unfair for that player to jump another if they’re not playing to the level of expectation required.”

http://www.richmondfc.com.au/news/2014-07-23/talented-tiger-cubs-senior-push

It's amazing what opinions you can promote if you selectively quote and ignore contradictory comments. This goes both ways obviously.

 

[Mr Magic]

From this article I read earlier today:

And Hardwick warned he would continue to coach for the present, desperate to bank late-season wins and adamant he would not gift games to the next wave of Tiger cubs.

Speaking before Friday night’s trip to face West Coast, Hardwick said the Tigers were better than their standing of 12th and had been a victim of the league’s new-found evenness.

“We’ll play the year out accordingly. It’s no good preparing for next year, when we’re still playing for this year as far as we’re concerned,” Hardwick said yesterday.

“We’ve got to continue to get wins on the board, continue to earn respect of our fans back because we’ve been really disappointing.”

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/a...-start-to-season/story-fni5f9jb-1226997807816

I can only speak for myself but I actually find Dimma' stance/attitude very disappointing to read. I get where he is coming from but I'd much rather see us giving opportunities to the next generation pressing for a game than playing guys who might not have much upside/long term value to our list.

Not saying we should go out and lose but after our disappointing season so far, for me at least, I'd like to see some things to give me hope for the future - next season and beyond. Beating up on bottom teams in the final few games is all well and good but I'd rather do it with an eye on the future, especially when you have guys like McBean, Lennon, Dea, Gordon and McDonough (and even Darrou) who have been impressing in recent weeks.

I assume he is just drumming up crowd attendance but surely he doesn't believe winning season end back end victories has anything to do with supporters respect.

If DH gave the kids more of a go when results have become irrelevant for the year he would probably earn more respect IMO because they would be focusing on a more relevant objective still relevant which is developing for a future premiership that is actually still current as an objective!!

 

[wart101]

Wow ok, this forum is starting to reek of major arrogance.

 

[NUFC Tiger]

Just to counter that (read the whole article obviously):

http://www.richmondfc.com.au/news/2014-07-23/talented-tiger-cubs-senior-push

It's amazing what opinions you can promote if you selectively quote and ignore contradictory comments. This goes both ways obviously.

Very true DrMike and I did read that bit as well. I was just more concerned why Dimma thinks winning some dead rubber games will 'win the respect of fans'? Isn't this what we've traditionally done when doing a late season charge to just missing finals? I personally just don't see any logic behind it?

I get the message he wants to send out and I'm glad he isn't putting the cue in the rack so to speak but I just don't see (for myself) any reason to get excited for next season if we were to pick up wins over GWS and the Saints in the run home. It's just my 2 cents but I'd like to see us put guys in for surgery to get them ready for a full preseason and maybe give a few younger guys a taste of AFL footy to hopefully get them craving more for next season.

I read this morning for example that Grigg is likely to play in the VFL side this week - I wouldn't be surprised if he gets recalled to the seniors after 1 or 2 games in the 2s despite a few other younger players playing well. I know Dimma said players need to earn their spot (and I genuinely hope that is the case) but I have a feeling he will again overlook some of those kids and bring in senior players. Hope I'm wrong but it's happened a few time this year IMO.

I assume he is just drumming up crowd attendance but surely he doesn't believe winning season end back end victories has anything to do with supporters respect.

If DH gave the kids more of a go when results have become irrelevant for the year he would probably earn more respect IMO because they would be focusing on a more relevant objective still relevant which is developing for a future premiership that is actually still current as an objective!!

Exactly my thoughts too Magic! I think I'd respect him more by playing the kids (mind you, only the ones who are playing well in the VFL side and deserve a game) because he'd basically be admitting that the club has failed this season and that they were already looking to make improvements for next season.

In some way, by saying we need to get wins to finish off the year, it's just like clinging to straws that there is something to salvage from this season (when in actual fact, I think testing out some of the kids/guys who are not certain to be on the list next season would be a more beneficial use of the remaining games).

 

[wart101]

Hehe...your 'switch & bait' routine is just as subtle as ever.

Fact is, at the beginning of 2013, we'd all struggle to identify half a dozen players from the above who we'd have willingly slotted into our best-22. Many would struggle to find more than 3-4.

Hinkley's results have come through him getting the absolute most out of an overwhelming proportion of Port's playing list. From washed up veterans to first year kids, he's had them all jumping out of their skin and loving to play for him, themselves & the club. The brand of football he was able to institute over ONE PRE-SEASON took them deep into finals immediately and has done an enormous amount to take that club from basket case to being the envy of many other clubs.

Hardwick's tenure with us doesn't compare even remotely well and I have no doubt he would readily concede that simple fact.

You on the other hand...;-)

Hardwicks tenure started off so much different to Hinkley's, for starters our list was shot, ports at least had a skeleton list, if we got Hinkley instead of Hardwick I am not sure he could have done better.

 

[DrMike]

Very true DrMike and I did read that bit as well. I was just more concerned why Dimma thinks winning some dead rubber games will 'win the respect of fans'? Isn't this what we've traditionally done when doing a late season charge to just missing finals? I personally just don't see any logic behind it?

I get the message he wants to send out and I'm glad he isn't putting the cue in the rack so to speak but I just don't see (for myself) any reason to get excited for next season if we were to pick up wins over GWS and the Saints in the run home. It's just my 2 cents but I'd like to see us put guys in for surgery to get them ready for a full preseason and maybe give a few younger guys a taste of AFL footy to hopefully get them craving more for next season.

I read this morning for example that Grigg is likely to play in the VFL side this week - I wouldn't be surprised if he gets recalled to the seniors after 1 or 2 games in the 2s despite a few other younger players playing well. I know Dimma said players need to earn their spot (and I genuinely hope that is the case) but I have a feeling he will again overlook some of those kids and bring in senior players. Hope I'm wrong but it's happened a few time this year IMO.

Technically, we win every game from here and we make finals still, unlikely but I'd at least like them to try until it is 100% impossible

I would suggest the part about having to earn your spot applies to everyone, if Grigg can't perform consistently at VFL level and perform better than the person he would be replacing, and there are no injuries which require require someone to come in, then he won't be selected. But we'll have to wait and see on that and I'll reserve my judgement until then.

 

[living_in_syd]

Just to counter that (read the whole article obviously):

http://www.richmondfc.com.au/news/2014-07-23/talented-tiger-cubs-senior-push

It's amazing what opinions you can promote if you selectively quote and ignore contradictory comments. This goes both ways obviously.

However, a the history of team selection all year proves otherwise.

Let's just hope everyone is given a fair opportunity.

But, considering an important off season is coming for us, we should start planning for that and not get sucked in by getting cheap wins with our retreads. Whats the point? Teams are expected to improve again next year and we will have done nothing, again.

 

[NUFC Tiger]

Technically, we win every game from here and we make finals still, unlikely but I'd at least like them to try until it is 100% impossible

I would suggest the part about having to earn your spot applies to everyone, if Grigg can't perform consistently at VFL level and perform better than the person he would be replacing, and there are no injuries which require require someone to come in, then he won't be selected. But we'll have to wait and see on that and I'll reserve my judgement until then.

Yep, fair call mate -I'm still hoping we can sneak into the 8 myself. I really really do hope Dimma means about giving everyone a fair chance, I'm just not entirely sold he will back those words up with actions. As you say though, no point passing judgement until it happens one way or the other.

However, a the history of team selection all year proves otherwise.

Let's just hope everyone is given a fair opportunity.

But, considering an important off season is coming for us, we should start planning for that and not get sucked in by getting cheap wins with our retreads. Whats the point? Teams are expected to improve again next year and we will have done nothing, again.

Pretty much agree with this too mate - as is sometimes said, we don't learn from our past mistakes and repeat them. I really hope we give everyone a chance to play in the final few games (if their form warrants it). I just have a bad feeling we might see some of his trusted/preferred players get the nod ahead of others. Hope I'm wrong though.

 

[DrMike]

However, a the history of team selection all year proves otherwise.

Let's just hope everyone is given a fair opportunity.

But, considering an important off season is coming for us, we should start planning for that and not get sucked in by getting cheap wins with our retreads. Whats the point? Teams are expected to improve again next year and we will have done nothing, again.

Just because they're retreads doesn't mean they're crap players, Petterd has been in very good form and Chaplin has improved his performances since Rance has been back. Maric? Lloyd? Gordon? Hampson fair enough, Thomas has been serviceable as short term backup. Houli is back to his best.

The only guys that haven't played this year are King (injured), Knights (injured), Helbig (who knows), McIntosh (injured/developing) and McBean (injured/developing), Elton (who knows) or non-elevated rookies.

Arnot has played 4
Astbury has played 8
Batchelor has played 6
Dea has played 7
Gordon has played 5
Griffiths has played 10
Grimes has played 12
Lennon has played 5
Lloyd has played 6
McDonough has played 7
Miles has played 6
O'Hanlon has played 1

These are all our next tier players vying for a spot on the senior list, so please explain how exactly we're not getting games into players?

 

[Lsta062]

To be honest, I love what Dimma is doing at the moment with the club. He is making the kids work hard earn the jumper. The club has already screwed up with some of the seniors by gifting them games, so he is making the kids work to the level that the club expects them to play at. They will turn out to be consistent quality players that way and will replace the seniors who aren't good enough to play in the ones in the future. This will be good for the club long term and will strengthen the culture of the club down the track. We will be able to go back to our winning days. We will need to have patience for this to eventuate though

 

[ScallyWag1]

Just because they're retreads doesn't mean they're crap players, Petterd has been in very good form and Chaplin has improved his performances since Rance has been back. Maric? Lloyd? Gordon? Hampson fair enough, Thomas has been serviceable as short term backup. Houli is back to his best.

The only guys that haven't played this year are King (injured), Knights (injured), Helbig (who knows), McIntosh (injured/developing) and McBean (injured/developing), Elton (who knows) or non-elevated rookies.

Arnot has played 4
Astbury has played 8
Batchelor has played 6
Dea has played 7
Gordon has played 5
Griffiths has played 10
Grimes has played 12
Lennon has played 5
Lloyd has played 6
McDonough has played 7
Miles has played 6
O'Hanlon has played 1

These are all our next tier players vying for a spot on the senior list, so please explain how exactly we're not getting games into players?

Houli has played 16
Morris has played 15 with a bung shoulder
Foley has played 11
Jackson has played 10 and been fit for 0
Hampson has played 11 (FFS)
Grigg has been fit for and played 10

 

[DrMike]

Houli has played 16
Morris has played 15 with a bung shoulder
Foley has played 11
Jackson has played 10 and been fit for 0
Hampson has played 11 (FFS)
Grigg has been fit for and played 10

I don't understand what point you're trying to make here

They're all capable of senior level football, Jackson did a shut down role on Pittard the other week and did very well, Morris' shoulder doesn't stop him from competing, and even then who replaces him?

 

[ScallyWag1]

I don't understand what point you're trying to make here

They're all capable of senior level football, Jackson did a shut down role on Pittard the other week and did very well, Morris' shoulder doesn't stop him from competing, and even then who replaces him?

So are the kids you listed, maybe not consistent, top quality senior football but who knows? Morris and Jackson are both part of the 22 when fit, but they're also both carrying fairly significant injuries. Why not give them a rest now? Morris needs a shoulder op, has done most of the year, go and get it done so he can do a full pre-season. Jackson has been rushed back every time this season and is now out for at least 3 weeks? Shut him down too. Ladder position from here doesn't matter, yes always go out and try and win them all but it's time to look to next year in terms of the list.

I'd sooner see what we've got in O'Hanlon, Arnott, et al for a string of games than some of the known commodities that have played large parts of the year. It's a different story of course if we were in finals contention, but since we're not, why not have an extended look at a few of the kids, give them a couple of weeks to have a crack rather than just delisting them at the end of the year?

Our current match-committee/coaching decisions will see us win just enough games in the run home, that we are able to defer any and all tough list-management and coaching decisions we would otherwise have to make at the end of this year.

 

[DrMike]

So are the kids you listed, maybe not consistent, top quality senior football but who knows? Morris and Jackson are both part of the 22 when fit, but they're also both carrying fairly significant injuries. Why not give them a rest now? Morris needs a shoulder op, has done most of the year, go and get it done so he can do a full pre-season. Jackson has been rushed back every time this season and is now out for at least 3 weeks? Shut him down too. Ladder position from here doesn't matter, yes always go out and try and win them all but it's time to look to next year in terms of the list.

I'd sooner see what we've got in O'Hanlon, Arnott, et al for a string of games than some of the known commodities that have played large parts of the year. It's a different story of course if we were in finals contention, but since we're not, why not have an extended look at a few of the kids, give them a couple of weeks to have a crack rather than just delisting them at the end of the year?

Our current match-committee/coaching decisions will see us win just enough games in the run home, that we are able to defer any and all tough list-management and coaching decisions we would otherwise have to make at the end of this year.

I agree, but like I said we can still make finals, however remote that possibility, don't you want us to make finals?

We play a few weaker teams, GWS and St Kilda, that's where some of these guys should be given opportunities

And to clarify I clearly mean opportunities vs best available, as in if a "kid" is out performing as the best available for a position (taking into account injuries existing and new), they should play over someone that isn't eg. Miles playing ahead of Thomas. Opportunities go to players like McBean to get some senior level experience who have shown that they can perform above VFL but need more knowledge in order to perform at AFL.

The problem is if we start dropping all the "older" players, all we're left with is young kids, and we already have an extremely young list. You need some of these senior players to bring maturity, otherwise we'd be getting pumped every week like GWS or Brisbane.

 

[ScallyWag1]

I agree, but like I said we can still make finals, however remote that possibility, don't you want us to make finals?

We play a few weaker teams, GWS and St Kilda, that's where some of these guys should be given opportunities

And to clarify I clearly mean opportunities vs best available, as in if a "kid" is out performing as the best available for a position (taking into account injuries existing and new), they should play over someone that isn't eg. Miles playing ahead of Thomas. Opportunities go to players like McBean to get some senior level experience who have shown that they can perform above VFL but need more knowledge in order to perform at AFL.

The problem is if we start dropping all the "older" players, all we're left with is young kids, and we already have an extremely young list. You need some of these senior players to bring maturity, otherwise we'd be getting pumped every week like GWS or Brisbane.

I'd love to make the finals! I did the ladder predictor on the AFL site yesterday actually. we'd have to be 1,000,000,000,000,000:1 to make the finals, we need some insane results to go our way..although I guess Dimma did say that the bottom teams can beat anyone this year , hence Richmond's current predicament.

I think we could field a team of kids and the likes of Rance, Deledio, Jack, Cotch, Dusty, Ellis, Vlaustin, Maric, Vickery, Miles and not get the GWS-2012 style floggings..

 

[richoatthedisco]

From this article I read earlier today:

And Hardwick warned he would continue to coach for the present, desperate to bank late-season wins and adamant he would not gift games to the next wave of Tiger cubs.

Speaking before Friday night’s trip to face West Coast, Hardwick said the Tigers were better than their standing of 12th and had been a victim of the league’s new-found evenness.

“We’ll play the year out accordingly. It’s no good preparing for next year, when we’re still playing for this year as far as we’re concerned,” Hardwick said yesterday.

“We’ve got to continue to get wins on the board, continue to earn respect of our fans back because we’ve been really disappointing.”

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/a...-start-to-season/story-fni5f9jb-1226997807816

I can only speak for myself but I actually find Dimma' stance/attitude very disappointing to read. I get where he is coming from but I'd much rather see us giving opportunities to the next generation pressing for a game than playing guys who might not have much upside/long term value to our list.

Not saying we should go out and lose but after our disappointing season so far, for me at least, I'd like to see some things to give me hope for the future - next season and beyond. Beating up on bottom teams in the final few games is all well and good but I'd rather do it with an eye on the future, especially when you have guys like McBean, Lennon, Dea, Gordon and McDonough (and even Darrou) who have been impressing in recent weeks.

Exactly. Far more respect from me if he rewards the form and potential of the likes of McDonough and Helbig than a dead-end like Thomas.

Just to counter that (read the whole article obviously):

http://www.richmondfc.com.au/news/2014-07-23/talented-tiger-cubs-senior-push

It's amazing what opinions you can promote if you selectively quote and ignore contradictory comments. This goes both ways obviously.

Don't worry about his words, watch his actions.

I assume he is just drumming up crowd attendance but surely he doesn't believe winning season end back end victories has anything to do with supporters respect.

If DH gave the kids more of a go when results have become irrelevant for the year he would probably earn more respect IMO because they would be focusing on a more relevant objective still relevant which is developing for a future premiership that is actually still current as an objective!!

Well done, Magic. That is the most sense you have ever made!

To be honest, I love what Dimma is doing at the moment with the club. He is making the kids work hard earn the jumper. The club has already screwed up with some of the seniors by gifting them games, so he is making the kids work to the level that the club expects them to play at. They will turn out to be consistent quality players that way and will replace the seniors who aren't good enough to play in the ones in the future. This will be good for the club long term and will strengthen the culture of the club down the track. We will be able to go back to our winning days. We will need to have patience for this to eventuate though

That's a good post and making the kids earn it is no bad thing. But playing Arnot in the forward pocket and O'Hanlon as the sub and immediately dropping them was not much reward.

At this stage of the season we've had, selection must be with an eye to the future. McDonough and Helbig have sustained form, so let's see if they get a game. Helbig hasn't had a look-in for two years and the way it's going he'll be delisted without another look.

Matt Thomas represents how far Dimma has departed from what he promised us and I would bet good money he'll be in this week.

 

[Harmichael]

Houli has played 16
Morris has played 15 with a bung shoulder
Foley has played 11
Jackson has played 10 and been fit for 0
Hampson has played 11 (FFS)
Grigg has been fit for and played 10

Add to that:

Deledio was brought back to soon.

Cotchin's been carrying an injury since the first Fremantle game last year.

They're trying to rush Astbury back before the end of the season.

 

[Roachy8]

Club should never have extended his contract until after they saw the finals debacle against a side that didn't even make the 8, but yet pissed themselves laughing at us twice in a month coming back from six goals down.

In a creepy way it's nice to know that I'm not the only one still struggling to come to terms with our last month of 2013...

 

[Tigerbob]

They would be ******* stupid To Put Astbury into the team before the year is out. Let him heal and train.

Get him spot on for 2015.

 

[Roachy8]

Technically, we win every game from here and we make finals still, unlikely but I'd at least like them to try until it is 100% impossible.

This is my major worry at the moment Doc - I reckon we might win all of our remaining games but I disagree that we will make the 8.
In fact the salt in the wound of coming home with a wet sail and finishing 9th will even more focus all of us on the amateur hour that was our pre-season and early season this year.
Such a waste of a year really...

 

[sportshow]

I think most of the fans would be more impressed with developing young kids and having them come through into a formidable winning team for the next ten years instead of some meaningless wins adding to zero now in 2014.

How is this not obvious to those in power.

Selection has been the worst performed element this year, behind game day coaching, and then the actual players - in that order.

 

[tugga]

Just because they're retreads doesn't mean they're crap players, Petterd has been in very good form and Chaplin has improved his performances since Rance has been back. Maric? Lloyd? Gordon? Hampson fair enough, Thomas has been serviceable as short term backup. Houli is back to his best.

The only guys that haven't played this year are King (injured), Knights (injured), Helbig (who knows), McIntosh (injured/developing) and McBean (injured/developing), Elton (who knows) or non-elevated rookies.

Arnot has played 4
Astbury has played 8
Batchelor has played 6
Dea has played 7
Gordon has played 5
Griffiths has played 10
Grimes has played 12
Lennon has played 5
Lloyd has played 6
McDonough has played 7
Miles has played 6
O'Hanlon has played 1

These are all our next tier players vying for a spot on the senior list, so please explain how exactly we're not getting games into players?

Just my opinion but lennon, Miles, Lloyd, McDonough, batchelor,Arnot, O'Hanlon all should have played way more than what they have.