List Mgmt. Blair Hartley Project - 2014 - 5 list spaces confirmed

[Mr Magic]

Fair enough.

But you also made claims about where other clubs are at, Geelong in particular. And Geelong has less retreads on their list than any team.

I'm saying only that there's no basis for the claim that you can measure a team's chances by the number of recycled players.

I'm also not trying to talk up RFC's list or our chances with guys who are clearly gap fillers until our younger guys come on.

I did make claims.Correct.

Not exactly sure what you want to elaborate to me about Geelong. Geelong had a great team. IMO they should have traded Bartel and SJ off for draft picks if they could have got something fair. They should have went like Saints and be a bit like Bulldogs now IMO. Geelong overachieved this year. They will struggle to make the 8 next year with a tough draw because they don't have the draft talent on their lists to drive them forward. Geelong don't have the re-treads, they got that part right but they don't have the high draft picks at the right age either.

Honestly, talking about other clubs the best team set up for success after Port, Sydney, GWS and GC is Bulldogs IMO. They have a great pick this year to get a gun, Bont and Macrae and should get a number of great draft picks as their senior list retires. McCartney has set their list up nicely!

The argument against recycled players is age. Simply put the age of recycled versus draftees puts a club at too much of a disadvantage because when players are older you have to be very precise with your recycled picks! For example a cheaper Lake at his age was okay because Hawks were in contention. Likewise Miles was okay because he was younger. Maric also was an exception becauseour ruck was non- existent so there was no downside risk!


IMO due to Port Sydney, GWS, GC we have to go draft picks for the next few years trying to target a premiership after 6 years when GC and GWS has cap pressures and other list issues!

 

[TigersMan4]

Anyone else think that the club will be de-listing any other players?

And is McDoughnut and Dea trade bait?

 

[Boggle]

I did make claims.Correct.

Not exactly sure what you want to elaborate to me about Geelong. Geelong had a great team. IMO they should have traded Bartel and SJ off for draft picks if they could have got something fair. They should have went like Saints and be a bit like Bulldogs now IMO. Geelong overachieved this year. They will struggle to make the 8 next year with a tough draw because they don't have the draft talent on their lists to drive them forward. Geelong don't have the re-treads, they got that part right but they don't have the high draft picks at the right age either.

Honestly, talking about other clubs the best team set up for success after Port, Sydney, GWS and GC is Bulldogs IMO. They have a great pick this year to get a gun, Bont and Macrae and should get a number of great draft picks as their senior list retires. McCartney has set their list up nicely!

I don't want to discuss anything about Geelong.

In fact, if we need to discuss team lists in detail, then it just underscores the very point I'm making: you can't determine anything just from the number of recycled players on a team's list.

 

[Tiger_Of_Old]

Anyone else think that the club will be de-listing any other players?

And is McDoughnut and Dea trade bait?

Doubt it,Doubt it and Maybe.

 

[TigersMan4]

Doubt it,Doubt it and Maybe.

why no announcement of signing then?
it's been two weeks since the season ended, you'd thing they would have signed by now if they were going to stay

 

["The Roar Is Back"]

Moore ( Miles like ) and Bastinac ( Ellis like) interest me . Both just need opportunity .
I also like Lowden .

 

[Mr Magic]

I don't want to discuss anything about Geelong.

In fact, if we need to discuss team lists in detail, then it just underscores the very point I'm making: you can't determine anything just from the number of recycled players on a team's list.

You can. You just refuse to consider it.

Proper recyled player policies is all about timing and contention windows!

If a team has a lot of recycled players it means they are like Hawthorn and have been up there a while in contention otherwise no point in getting recycled players or like Swans you have a cap with no limit and can cherry pick the best candidates!

 

[JR82]

You can't be serious. For starters Port should have beat Hawthorn if not for the umpires. Roughead, a draft pick carried them with his long goals and other goals.

Sydney are an anomoly with their Cola and other advantages. Calling Buddy is fine but who can pay that sort of money other than them. Fact is their better players Rohan and Parker both draft picks.

The difference is you can top up with top recycled like Sydney when in contention but we are not near contention! If you top up with recycled without a quality base of draft picks without Cola you will never be in contention.

Hawthorn had Roughead, Buddy, Lewis, Hodge, Rioli, Smith at a young age as a base to get recycled picks. Port had Wingard, Harlett, Boak, Cornes, Wines, Gray, Westhoff, as a base at a young age!

The trouble is Richmond are not near contention and not near it for a while with GC, GWS, Port, Sydney up there and one the way with a lot of upside on the way.

Clearly short term interest has been selected ahead of long term good again prolonging Richmond failure again!

thier bad kicking for Goal in the 1st term cost them the win IMO

i reckon COLA makes it hard for us & anyone else to be successful at all which is utter crap! Sydney will win the flag then the COLA debate will explode all over again

 

[Mr Magic]

thier bad kicking for Goal in the 1st term cost them the win IMO

i reckon COLA makes it hard for us & anyone else to be successful at all which is utter crap! Sydney will win the flag then the COLA debate will explode all over again

Best thing for us is Swans win this year and next. Will not see Cola again then.

Swans don't care if seen dominant despite early losses because will have issues versus a rising GC and GWS anyway and Cola can't help them versus GWS. In effect Swans sold GWS out!

 

[Boggle]

You can.

No, you really can't.

If a team has a lot of recycled players it means they are like Hawthorn and have been up there a while in contention

Given that Richmond have more recycled players than the Hawks, I'd suggest you rethink this claim.

 

[RichoLedio]

Moore ( Miles like ) and Bastinac ( Ellis like) interest me . Both just need opportunity .
I also like Lowden .

Bastinac could be quite handy for us I reckon

 

[_RT_]

Still waiting for Mr Magic to respond to my post from last week. Thank Christ I didn't hold me breath otherwise I'd be talking to Christ direct.

 

[Mr Magic]

Mr Magic to respond to my post from last week. Thank Christ I didn't hold me breath otherwise I'd be talking to Christ direct.

Which post was that?

Couldn't be important but you can remind me if you want!

 

[Mr Magic]

No, you really can't.



Given that Richmond have more recycled players than the Hawks, I'd suggest you rethink this claim.

Bingo!!!! Which is why Richmond is not succeeding in terms of preparing the foundation for a premiership as there are to too many recycled players as we were not in contention when we got them!

Hawthorn could easily have stuffed their list with recycled players. They have been lucky like in 2008 and Freo could have pipped them in 2013.

 

[Tiger_Of_Old]

why no announcement of signing then?
it's been two weeks since the season ended, you'd thing they would have signed by now if they were going to stay

Overseas perhaps?

 

[Boggle]

Bingo!!!! Which is why Richmond is not succeeding in terms of preparing the foundation for a premiership as there are to too many recycled players as we were not in contention when we got them!

Hawthorn could easily have stuffed their list with recycled players. They have been lucky like in 2008 and Freo could have pipped them in 2013.

Again, the only point I'm making is that the number of recycled players isn't a factor.

So pointing out that RFC are in the wrong place in a development cycle merely underscores my point --simply counting the number of recycled players tells you nothing about a team's chances.

I think we're done here.

 

[partycorolla]

I did make claims.Correct.

Not exactly sure what you want to elaborate to me about Geelong. Geelong had a great team. IMO they should have traded Bartel and SJ off for draft picks if they could have got something fair. They should have went like Saints and be a bit like Bulldogs now IMO. Geelong overachieved this year. They will struggle to make the 8 next year with a tough draw because they don't have the draft talent on their lists to drive them forward. Geelong don't have the re-treads, they got that part right but they don't have the high draft picks at the right age either.

Honestly, talking about other clubs the best team set up for success after Port, Sydney, GWS and GC is Bulldogs IMO. They have a great pick this year to get a gun, Bont and Macrae and should get a number of great draft picks as their senior list retires. McCartney has set their list up nicely!

The argument against recycled players is age. Simply put the age of recycled versus draftees puts a club at too much of a disadvantage because when players are older you have to be very precise with your recycled picks! For example a cheaper Lake at his age was okay because Hawks were in contention. Likewise Miles was okay because he was younger. Maric also was an exception becauseour ruck was non- existent so there was no downside risk!


IMO due to Port Sydney, GWS, GC we have to go draft picks for the next few years trying to target a premiership after 6 years when GC and GWS has cap pressures and other list issues!

Why would you get great draft picks as senior players retire? You get draft picks based on where you finish on the ladder.... so unless they continue to be crap, they will not get great draft picks because a senior player retires. In fact if a player retires, you just get another pick, much later in the draft.... Once again your logic is skewed....

 

[Mr Magic]

Again, the only point I'm making is that the number of recycled players isn't a factor.

So pointing out that RFC are in the wrong place in a development cycle merely underscores my point --simply counting the number of recycled players tells you nothing about a team's chances.

I think we're done here.

Whether we are done or not is up to you. I am not holding you to anything! My argument IMO still stands!

The point still stands recycled players as a consistent strategy is only viable after a great deal of foundation with solid draft picks pushing a club into contention from the draft picks The Swans are the exception with Cola. You might be Blair and if so that's unfortunate but my view still stays the same unless an alternative can be argued with substance!

If RFC maintain recycled players inclusion at older ages guaranteed the club will not win a thing!

The fact is RFC are in the wrong development space possibly due to the number of recycled players! The two concepts are not mutually exclusive. They are interdependent as recycled players and their performance affects other future potential recruits as well as the development of others including the draftees!

For example if we didn't have Chaplin probably could have got Goddard or a better prospect. Now, its doubtful Goddard will still be available in this draft, although if we pick up someone like Duggan still be handy. Still, its hard to get quality KPP at the best of times!

You can talk up Chaplin and Hampson all you like. In 6 years they will surely have to be replaced, if not earlier, and we may not have suitable replacements. In the meantime we would not have won a thing! Ellis will be playing for 10+ years before we have to worry about him! If we got Goddard its highly likely he would play 10+ years as well probably better than Chaplin who could also help forward and we wouldn't have to give up a lot later for similar types which are rare in an 18 team comp now!

 

[Rumballs]

Whether we are done or not is up to you. I am not holding you to anything! My argument IMO still stands!

The point still stands recycled players as a consistent strategy is only viable after a great deal of foundation with solid draft picks pushing a club into contention from the draft picks The Swans are the exception with Cola. You might be Blair and if so that's unfortunate but my view still stays the same unless an alternative can be argued with substance!

If RFC maintain recycled players inclusion at older ages guaranteed the club will not win a thing!

The fact is RFC are in the wrong development space possibly due to the number of recycled players! The two concepts are not mutually exclusive. They are interdependent as recycled players and their performance affects other future potential recruits as well as the development of others including the draftees!

For example if we didn't have Chaplin probably could have got Goddard or a better prospect. Now, its doubtful Goddard will still be available in this draft, although if we pick up someone like Duggan still be handy. Still, its hard to get quality KPP at the best of times!

You can talk up Chaplin and Hampson all you like. In 6 years they will surely have to be replaced, if not earlier, and we may not have suitable replacements. In the meantime we would not have won a thing! Ellis will be playing for 10+ years before we have to worry about him! If we got Goddard its highly likely he would play 10+ years as well probably better than Chaplin who could also help forward and we wouldn't have to give up a lot later for similar types which are rare in an 18 team comp now!

 

[theflea]

If Carlton put up pick 6 for Mitchell, so be it. I'd Swans take that I think it's a fair trade. We can't compete with that with our pick 11.

I'd try with Pick 11 and a player but it still won't trump pick 6.

All I'm saying is try. Meet with him. Tell him he'd be starting midfield with tye likes of Cotchin, Deledio, Martin, Vlastuin, Ellis, Conca, Miles. Tell him he'd be a face of a particular sponsor to get his image out there. Just try.

We are closer to a flag than Carlton. Well we should be. Sell him that.

This is a good point. We moan about the type of player that has come to the club of late, but do we know of who we have 'tried' to convince to come to the club but unable to get a deal or the player to change over? The point being is we keep saying stop doing this or that Dimma/Hartley but what if we tried and failed? Surely that isn't their fault?

 

[theflea]

If we trade for Mitchell, who IIRC signed a long term deal last year, we're obliged to pay that contract or redo the deal so that he still gets the same amount but over a different number of years.


As for trading for the likes of Shiel or Mitchell, IMO we should forget about them both. Being in contract they are both going to require more than what we'd be prepared to pay for them. Little point in trading for them if it costs us our first pick and a decent player as the net result is that we're not any better off. What I'd much rather see us do is trade out a few of our mid tier players that might jag us a couple of extra 2nd/3rd round picks so that we can improve our mid tier players.

For mine the ability to add some more speed and skill with a number of young kids will serve us better moving forward. There is, when reading the reports on the kids, plenty of kids with pace and decent skills in the top 40 of the draft. Being able to have 3-4 picks in that range where we could really address some needs and change up the make up of the list.

Adding that outside speed and skill will compliment our inside ball winners and will make us much more dangerous next year and beyond.

You can tear up a contract if the player agrees ala lake. just saying.

 

[theflea]

I did make claims.Correct.

Not exactly sure what you want to elaborate to me about Geelong. Geelong had a great team. IMO they should have traded Bartel and SJ off for draft picks if they could have got something fair. They should have went like Saints and be a bit like Bulldogs now IMO. Geelong overachieved this year. They will struggle to make the 8 next year with a tough draw because they don't have the draft talent on their lists to drive them forward. Geelong don't have the re-treads, they got that part right but they don't have the high draft picks at the right age either.

Honestly, talking about other clubs the best team set up for success after Port, Sydney, GWS and GC is Bulldogs IMO. They have a great pick this year to get a gun, Bont and Macrae and should get a number of great draft picks as their senior list retires. McCartney has set their list up nicely!

The argument against recycled players is age. Simply put the age of recycled versus draftees puts a club at too much of a disadvantage because when players are older you have to be very precise with your recycled picks! For example a cheaper Lake at his age was okay because Hawks were in contention. Likewise Miles was okay because he was younger. Maric also was an exception becauseour ruck was non- existent so there was no downside risk!


IMO due to Port Sydney, GWS, GC we have to go draft picks for the next few years trying to target a premiership after 6 years when GC and GWS has cap pressures and other list issues!

So your argument is the cats should go down the saints way and be shite?

 

[theflea]

why no announcement of signing then?
it's been two weeks since the season ended, you'd thing they would have signed by now if they were going to stay

Madonna most likely to leave us not the other way around. Dea maybe.

 

[theflea]

Bingo!!!! Which is why Richmond is not succeeding in terms of preparing the foundation for a premiership as there are to too many recycled players as we were not in contention when we got them!

Hawthorn could easily have stuffed their list with recycled players. They have been lucky like in 2008 and Freo could have pipped them in 2013.

The major difference was the hawks didn't have the expansion clubs to content with when going to the draft to reload their list and the hawks was an attractive brand for said recycled players to go to. Now we are in this timeframe and now need to offer up 1st rounders to quality players from other clubs. With most of our 1st rounders playing in the 1's plus adding to end talent via FA/trade the natural upgrade of these 'role' players will happen just like the club planned for all along.

 

[tigs2010]

The major difference was the hawks didn't have the expansion clubs to content with when going to the draft to reload their list and the hawks was an attractive brand for said recycled players to go to. Now we are in this timeframe and now need to offer up 1st rounders to quality players from other clubs. With most of our 1st rounders playing in the 1's plus adding to end talent via FA/trade the natural upgrade of these 'role' players will happen just like the club planned for all along.

Hawks have done an exceptional job of nailing picks all over the draft. We've had issues with the compromised draft because we tend to struggle outside of the first round. If we could hit late picks like the Hawks can then we would be a sensational team with our ability to hit our first rounders.