Bruce Francis

[Cronos]

You're making a bit of an assumption here. They have engaged some very capable lawyers, and it strikes me that the legal strategy appears not to have changed since at least the completion of ASADA's investigation.

Francis is clearly a bit unhinged and obsessive, but if (and it's a huge "if", I realise) he's quoting directly and accurately from the real interim report in that latest diatribe (which I read most of - I'm becoming obsessed) then I have some very serious concerns about ASADA's whole case against the bombers. Reading it reminded me that Julian Burnside hinted at a lot of the same things in a radio interview he did late last year - long after he'd stopped acting for Hird.

I have always assumed that ASADA's case was at least strong enough to sustain the 'comfortable satisfaction' requirement, particularly as Essendon's defence is to argue they took something legitimate (rather than just say "you can't prove what we took"), but a lot of this stuff is pretty concerning.

For one thing, ASADA have made much of the player testimonies, but christ if Francis is telling the truth, those testimonies may not add anything probative at all, and actually make it look like ASADA fitted a lot of this up. The omission of Watson's testimony, assuming he said what he did, is a very bad look.

It won't be a popular opinion on here, but I'm starting to get very nervous about the whole case against the bombers, which might be why their legal strategy has been so consistent.

Reading Bruce's diatribe says nothing other than:

This should be disregarded.
This should be disregarded because that should be disregarded.
This should be disregarded because that should be disregarded.
This should be disregarded because that should be disregarded.
This should be disregarded because that should be disregarded.
This should be disregarded because that should be disregarded.
This should be disregarded because that should be disregarded.
This should be disregarded because that should be disregarded.
This should be disregarded because that should be disregarded.
This should be disregarded because that should be disregarded.
This should be disregarded because that should be disregarded.
This should be disregarded because that should be disregarded.
This should be disregarded because that should be disregarded.
This should be disregarded because that should be disregarded.
This should be disregarded because that should be disregarded.
This should be disregarded because that should be disregarded.
This should be disregarded because that should be disregarded.
Clearly there is no evidence.

Remember, the bar to pass is comfortable satisfaction. All of these things that Bruce say are not evidence all stack up to add further value to the last. IMO, comfortable satisfaction will easily be reached.

 

[Gigantor]

No

Sorry, I have limits.

Edit:

This is a good bit

"This list has been edited by me to only include the relevant substances to this hearing; (So he is changing stuff while demanding that ASADA provide all the original material)

• There is no documentary evidence Thymosin Beta-4 was used at Essendon. (Just so GG )

ASADA Comment: Robinson stated that the AOD-9604, Thymosin, Lactaway, CoQ10 and Hexarelin were stored in Dank’s office fridge.

My Comment:

• This comment is incomprehensible. It is proof of ASADA’s deceitfulness or incompetence. It is inconceivable that a vial would be labelled “Thymosin”. Although it appears Thymosin is used as a generic name for Thymosin Alpha 1 or Thymomodulin by everybody except ASADA, it would not be supplied in a vial with the name Thymosin. I lol'd) Every label on a vial containing the word Thymosin would be labelled either Thymosin Alpha 1 or Thymosin Beta-4. It is just unbelievable that ASADA could be so incompetent that it didn’t ask Robinson whether the label said Thymosin Alpha 1, Thymomodulin or Thymosin Beta-4. Or perhaps ASADA did and his answer finished in the missing Jobe Watson file with Lord Lucan;

• As Dean Wallis submitted a photograph to ASADA of vial he found in Dank’s fridge with a label saying Thymomodulin, it is highly probable that the Thymosin Robinson said was in the fridge was Thymomodulin;"

(Woohoo! The photo is evidence ASADA lied)

• ASADA should be required to produce a full transcript of Robinson’s evidence so it can be determined whether ASADA was deceitful or incompetent.

(No third option here BF? Like ASADA got it right? Oh no, it doesn't fit the agenda. ASADA has to be deceitful or incompetent but the photo of the photo is absolutely not to be questioned, right?)

I was going to say you can't write this stuff but obviously you can!

That sounds right - there is no documentary evidence that TB4 was used at Essendon.

It is also correct to point out that even from ASADA's own evidence, "Thymosin" does not equal "Thymosin Beta 4".

ASADA holds at least two emails in which the Chinese supplier differentiates between "Thymosin" and "Thymosin Beta 4".

In fact, in one of those emails (around the time Charter was meant to have imported TB4), the supplier says unambiguously that he is incapable of supplying Thymosin Beta 4 but he is able to supply Thymosin.

 

[Gigantor]

Coincidence, the Gigantic GG has not been around for a couple of days and suddenly this tome of wisdom appears.

Someone needs to look at the timeline of Bruce's publications, i.e. The Bruce Francis thread (which is locked) and GG' timeline of posting.

Both have time on their hands being unemployable and both living a life of luxury.

Or are they one and the same????.

It's a conspiracy.

I am running out of characters (noting that I am already Martin Hardy and a dozen others).

 

[Gigantor]

Some real giggles in that blog...

ASADA Comment (page 163): Mr Wallis disclosed to investigators an occasion sometime after ‘Round 14’ of the 2012 season (30 June) – but more likely ‘around grand final week – when he attended Dank’s office at the club. Although Dank was not present at the time, Wallis entered the office and inspected Dank’s fridge. Inside the fridge Wallis observed a vial of Thymomodulin and recorded this observation by taking a picture of the vial with his telephone. Wallis has since produced a copy of that image to ASADA.

My Comment:

This is indisputable evidence that Thymomodulin was present at Essendon. There is no evidence that Thymosin Beta-4 was ever present at Essendon. If ASADA can’t prove Wallis’s evidence is false, the case against the players should be dismissed.
​

The guy is seriously delusional.

Has any evidence ever emerged that TB4 was at EFC?

 

[Gigantor]

I like this one...

2 December 2011: Charter returned to Melbourne with the raw material for the peptides GHRP-6, CJC-1295, Thymosin Beta-4 and IGF1-LR3 – all of which were declared by him at Customs. Charter states that he provided the substances to Alavi who subsequently compounded them for supply to Dank.

My Comment:

• There is no evidence Charter returned to Melbourne with the raw materials for the four substances;
​

No evidence? Can't the man read? Charter declared them to customs!!!

Did he return to Australia via Tullamarine?

 

[The_Wookie]

Has any evidence ever emerged that TB4 was at EFC?

Have you now or ever seen the full brief of ASADA evidence?

 

[Messenger]

Messenger, you have to see this.

Giddy up.

My Comment:
• McKenzie made the initial statement that Dank used Thymosin Beta-4. Dank was not asked what he used. McKenzie told him what he used. It was a bit like “have you stopped beating your wife”.

Wow, just wow! In what walk of life is asking someone if they used ThymosinBeta-4 the same as asking them "have you stopped beating your wife". If there was even the slightest hint of credibility it has run out the door right there.

They are attacking the style of questioning. If I ask you that question, to answer that question in a closed form (yes or no) you have to accept the premise of the question. It doesn't stop you saying "we never used TB4" though.

"Have you stopped beating your wife?"

"Yes"

"So you used to beat your wife?"

"Oh"

 

[Gigantor]

My Comment:
• McKenzie made the initial statement that Dank used Thymosin Beta-4. Dank was not asked what he used. McKenzie told him what he used. It was a bit like “have you stopped beating your wife”.

Wow, just wow! In what walk of life is asking someone if they used ThymosinBeta-4 the same as asking them "have you stopped beating your wife". If there was even the slightest hint of credibility it has run out the door right there.

Is he wrong with that statement?

 

[Cronos]

That sounds right - there is no documentary evidence that TB4 was used at Essendon.

There is no documentary evidence that TA1 or Thymomodulin was used either (besides a clearly incomplete 'thymodulin' spreadsheet created by a guy who actually wasn't involved in the program, months after the program started...), but that's the claim.

It is also correct to point out that even from ASADA's own evidence, "Thymosin" does not equal "Thymosin Beta 4".

Except that the guy who ran the program calls Thymosin Beta 4 'Thymosin' on his website. And the chemist he sourced it through calls Thymosin Beta 4 'Thymosin' on his purity reports...

ASADA holds at least two emails in which the Chinese supplier differentiates between "Thymosin" and "Thymosin Beta 4".

...and a statement from the Chinese supplier that the only substance supplied was Thymosin Beta 4...

In fact, in one of those emails (around the time Charter was meant to have imported TB4), the supplier says unambiguously that he is incapable of supplying Thymosin Beta 4 but he is able to supply Thymosin.

...yet the same supplier provided a statement that the only substance supplied was Thymosin Beta 4...

 

[Cronos]

Has any evidence ever emerged that TB4 was at EFC?

Yes. An unbroken supply chain.

 

[Ancient Tiger]

Is he wrong with that statement?

Yes. If you were asked if you had stopped beating your wife, you would immediately say you don't beat your wife, unless you did.

 

[Gigantor]

You're making a bit of an assumption here. They have engaged some very capable lawyers, and it strikes me that the legal strategy appears not to have changed since at least the completion of ASADA's investigation.

Francis is clearly a bit unhinged and obsessive, but if (and it's a huge "if", I realise) he's quoting directly and accurately from the real interim report in that latest diatribe (which I read most of - I'm becoming obsessed) then I have some very serious concerns about ASADA's whole case against the bombers. Reading it reminded me that Julian Burnside hinted at a lot of the same things in a radio interview he did late last year - long after he'd stopped acting for Hird.

I have always assumed that ASADA's case was at least strong enough to sustain the 'comfortable satisfaction' requirement, particularly as Essendon's defence is to argue they took something legitimate (rather than just say "you can't prove what we took"), but a lot of this stuff is pretty concerning.

For one thing, ASADA have made much of the player testimonies, but christ if Francis is telling the truth, those testimonies may not add anything probative at all, and actually make it look like ASADA fitted a lot of this up. The omission of Watson's testimony, assuming he said what he did, is a very bad look.

It won't be a popular opinion on here, but I'm starting to get very nervous about the whole case against the bombers, which might be why their legal strategy has been so consistent.

You have made a fatal flaw.

You have assumed Mr Francis actually has access to the full interim report, including the relevant evidence.

It is de rigeur on this board to brand Mr Francis a liar, and assume that he has made it all up.

 

[Gigantor]

Yes. If you were asked if you had stopped beating your wife, you would immediately say you don't beat your wife, unless you did.

I meant that it was the interviewer who referred specifically to TB4, who introduced it into the discussion.

 

[Gigantor]

Yes. An unbroken supply chain.

An unbroken chain all the way to EFC?

ON the evidence we have as at August 2013, ASADA is a million miles away from establishing that.

 

[Cronos]

An unbroken chain all the way to EFC?

ON the evidence we have as at August 2013, ASADA is a million miles away from establishing that.

And who'd have thought that ASADA would investigate and track the supply chain after that...

Seriously dude, you'd have to be a complete idiot to think that's all they have.

 

[Ancient Tiger]

You have made a fatal flaw.

You have assumed Mr Francis actually has access to the full interim report, including the relevant evidence.

It is de rigeur on this board to brand Mr Francis a liar, and assume that he has made it all up.

He is not a liar. He has made assumptions on an incomplete report. In other words he is most likely incorrect, but that doesn't mean he has lied.

 

[blackshadow]

It is de rigeur on this board to brand Mr Francis a liar, and assume that he has made it all up.

Those are the logical conclusions given Francis' mad ramblings.

 

[Argy]

Has any evidence ever emerged that TB4 was at EFC?

Why did it have to be at EFC?

 

[The_Wookie]

An unbroken chain all the way to EFC?

ON the evidence we have as at August 2013, ASADA is a million miles away from establishing that.

Because we have all the evidence right?

 

[Gigantor]

Have you now or ever seen the full brief of ASADA evidence?

We know as at August 2013 (having interviewed over 50 witnesses, and accessed thousands of documents via the AFL) that ASADA was a million miles away from establishing the supply chain all the way to EFC.

We know that when the PA saw a summary of the evidence following the issuing of SCNs they publicly stated: "it's the same old stuff".

 

[Ancient Tiger]

An unbroken chain all the way to EFC?

ON the evidence we have as at August 2013, ASADA is a million miles away from establishing that.

Are we still living in August 2013?

 

[Cronos]

We know as at August 2013 (having interviewed over 50 witnesses, and accessed thousands of documents via the AFL, however prior to following the leads gained in these interviews and documents to trace the supply chain...) that ASADA was a million miles away from establishing the supply chain all the way to EFC.

Fixed that for you. You left a bit out.

 

[blackshadow]

Because we have all the evidence right?

And because there is no evidence the players' lawyers have been arguing to exclude the evidence that obviously doesn't exist.

Joseph Heller would be proud.

 

[Gigantor]

Why did it have to be at EFC?

The generically worded SCNs to each of the 34 players state within the "details" (as required by the NAD Scheme) that they were injected with TB4 by Dank inside Dank's office (presumably his office was somewhere within EFC?)

 

[hfchfc]

Giddy up.



They are attacking the style of questioning. If I ask you that question, to answer that question in a closed form (yes or no) you have to accept the premise of the question. It doesn't stop you saying "we never used TB4" though.

"Have you stopped beating your wife?"

"Yes"

"So you used to beat your wife?"

"Oh"

The answer would have been we have never used TB4. And if someone asked me have I stopped beating my wife I would have dropped them on the spot!!! Where does it indicate they were playing a game of Yes or No?