I did the same thing, and also thought Murnane may have been the correct name!
Mornane only played one game for Fitzroy. If he was the player identified as "Caldwell", it's odd that after a debut said to have been promising, that he disappeared.
Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records
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Mornane only played one game for Fitzroy. If he was the player identified as "Caldwell", it's odd that after a debut said to have been promising, that he disappeared.
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I don't think Caldwell played. I saw another report where the Caldwells were picked for a VFA representative side that year and the report said that they played for Williamstown.
Also as a matter of practicality, Caldwell was well known so if a fake namewas used, he still would have been recognisable.
The far more logical explanation is that a team sheet was handed up and there was a typographical error. I havent searched at length the name Murnane.
It's pretty much certain the Caldwell's stayed at Williamstown that year, Jim must have been training with Fitzroy for a while and that has somehow caused the confusion.
Mornane it is, seemingly. He gets a mention here as an ex-student of Xavier College:- http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/which-afl-players-went-to-your-school.78466/page-22 (about half way down the page - Mick Mornane FIT 1907 - on a list of Xavier/Old Xavs players who went on to play VFL/AFL football).
His father (also Michael Mornane) appears to have been a very big name in the legal profession, and the son worked for the family business. Perhaps he decided to "drop out" of football to concentrate on his career. I have read elsewhere that the son of Michael senior went to St Patrick's College before going to Xavier College, so I'm pretty sure it's him.
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Strange but Trove gives you nothing on the bloke nor does your basic internet search. He was born in 1887 so that makes him 20 in 1907.
16/02/1886 according to the records for the footballer.
Of Michael Mornane (seemingly his father):- His four sons all attended Pats although they finished at Xavier. He died in 1931.
http://www.stpats.jesuit.org.au/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=6
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Not entirely true that Trove gives you nothing... several mentions of M. Mornane in Xavier teams in 1905-06 (mostly in the Advocate - Catholic newspaper) e.g. http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article170196039 refers to Xavier College missing its popular captain M. Mornane when they got thrashed by Melbourne Grammar.
Other articles also refer to how the current site of Xavier was a gift from the Mornane family
I recently sent an email to the AFL Statistics people about the revelations regarding 1907 Fitzroy lineups, providing a link to the relevant section of this thread. I've just received this response (from Steve Rodgers):-
Col and I are looking into the Fitzroy 1907 situation now, and should have it resolved in a couple of weeks.
WhiteHartLane23
Col and I are looking into the Fitzroy 1907 situation now, and should have it resolved in a couple of weeks.
WhiteHartLane23
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1907 Fitzroy lineups have quite a few issues:
Based off the Herald and Trove here is my complete list of variations from currently published official records:
1 Round 6 Fitzroy: George McWilliam played rather than C. Naismith Sources:Herald, Australasian
2 Round 8 Fitzroy: Bob Smith played rather than C. Naismith Sources: Herald, Australasian
3 Round 9 Fitzroy: Bob Smith played rather than Alf Bartlett Sources: Herald, The Age
4 Round 10 Fitzroy: Bob Smith played rather than C. Naismith Source: Herald
5 Round 11 Fitzroy: Bill Blacklock played rather than Tammy Beauchamp Sources: Herald, Australasian
6 Round 14 Fitzroy: Bill Blacklock played rather than Alf Appleton Source: Herald
7 Round 16 Fitzroy: Jack Edgley played rather than Syd Billings Source: Herald
8 Round 17 Fitzroy: Charlie Taylor played rather than Charlie Naismith Source: Herald, Australasian
note: In my State Library visit I missed Rd 15 so there may be something there as well..
Hopefully Col and Steve come up with the same list...
Rnd 14 Saturday 10 August 1907
The Age also mentions Blacklock [written as Blackrock] but no ref to Appleton anywhere in match report that I could see:
https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=zuRhAAAAIBAJ&sjid=L5EDAAAAIBAJ&pg=4723,7453957
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Another inaccuracy that would be great to fix up is Ted Pool's birth date.
Officially it is recorded as 9-Nov-1906 but from WA BDM records we have
Name: Herbert Edward Pool
Father's name: William James Pool
Mother's name: Harriet Jane George
Birth Place: Boulder
Registration Year: 1905
Registration Place: Western Australia
Registration Number: 925
note: his later electoral roll records have the name Herbert Edwin Pool.
The official date is clearly wrong - but what is the correct date?
Officially it is recorded as 9-Nov-1906 but from WA BDM records we have
Name: Herbert Edward Pool
Father's name: William James Pool
Mother's name: Harriet Jane George
Birth Place: Boulder
Registration Year: 1905
Registration Place: Western Australia
Registration Number: 925
note: his later electoral roll records have the name Herbert Edwin Pool.
The official date is clearly wrong - but what is the correct date?
Good find !
But at the same time a bit concerning. Seems to me that there are an increasing number of errors being discovered in the "definitive" lists of players games, and birth/death details, let alone correct name.
I've just received a reply from Steve Rodgers/Col Hutchinson at the AFL regarding this. I was hoping they would check this thread again to see if anything new had been added (such as what you have posted regarding rounds 14, 16 and 17) but it doesn't look like that has happened. I'm about to send another message suggesting there are a few more games that need to be looked at. Here's what their email has to say:-
We have finally got to the bottom of this Fitzroy 1907 situation.
From you and your colleagues' observations, I believe there were 5 Fitzroy rounds in question.
Round 4, 6, 8, 9, 11. I'll look at them one by one.
Round 4
It's clearly a typo that Caldwell played for Fitzroy. As you've noted, the 2 Caldwells were on the wings for Willy that day (confirmed in Herald teams.) At the AFL, we have no clearance of a Caldwell (from anywhere) to Fitzroy, early in that season. The Herald team has Mornane in the forward pocket. (with no Caldwell anywhere in the team). Furthermore the Herald preamble says: In the absence of Jim Sharp, the Fitz team included Mornane.
So no change to the original, for that one.
Round 6
It's certainly true that George McWilliam, the guy who was to later play in rounds 12,13, played. C.Naismith didn't play.
The half-back line is in fact:
E.Jenkins, G.McWilliam, F.Fontaine (not E.Jenkins, F.Fontaine, C.Naismith)
Round 8
Again, C.Naismith is the non-starter. R.Smith is in the team.
The half-forward line is:
L.Millis, G.Brosnan, R.Smith (not L.Millis, G.Brosnan, C.Naismith)
This, then, all marries up with the Herald preamble: Fitz included Fontaine and Walker, replacing [N.] McLennan and C.Naismith (As you've noted, they spelt it McLellan!)
Round 9
Again, R.Smith should be given a game. Bartlett is the out.
Instead of
C : B.Bailes, T.Beauchamp, A.Bartlett
H-F : L.Sharp, G.Brosnan, C.Owens
it should be:
C : B.Bailes, C.Owens, T.Beauchamp
H-F : L.Sharp, G.Brosnan, R.Smith
The preamble says (as you've noted) In the Fitz team, Abbott replaced Bartlett.
(This is true. What they forgot to add - this sometimes happens - is that there were other changes too. Eg. Cooper and Fontaine went out; and C.Naismith and L.Sharp came in.)
Round 11
As you've pointed out, Beauchamp definitely didn't play. Blacklock is the guy who should be in the team.
There are a number of positional changes.
Instead of (where I say 'instead of', I think you're aware that I'm referring to our original 'typed teams' here at the AFL)
C : B.Bailes, T.Beauchamp, A.Bartlett
H-F : L.Sharp, G.Brosnan, C.Owens
F : R.Smith, W.Johnson, A.Appleton
it should be:
C : B.Bailes, A.Bartlett, A.Appleton
H-F : L.Sharp, G.Brosnan, R.Smith
F : C.Owens, W.Johnson, W.Blacklock
To sum up, these are new games totals for the year, for all these players affected.
Old total New total
Alf Bartlett 12 11
Tammy Beauchamp (Beecham) 17 16
Bill Blacklock 4 5
George McWilliam 2 3
Charlie Naismith 12 10
Bob Smith 8 10
We've now made the above changes at the AFL. If convenient to, could you please pass on these amendments (if you think they'd be interested to know) to the others who contribute to the discussions, eg. the White Hart Lane and 35 Daicos guys. (and others?)
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That response is somewhat disturbing to be honest, but does confirm my suspicions - far too much kudos is given to lists created years ago.
1) It means that present-day AFL History/stats staff have not cross-checked Campbell's original lists with the range of resources which are now more easily available.
2) If that number of errors show up in the Fitzroy lists for 1907, who is to say that there are not numerous errors in lists for the other clubs !
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To me it says that with historical statistics, there is always work to be done. And you can look at that as a good or bad thing - bad for inaccuracy but fun for researching
Might have found another Fitzroy "problem" - different player named in the 1900 Round 5 match:
This list has an Alf McDougall in Fitzroy team
http://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1900/061119000526.html
but match report printed in The Herald that day (above this linked one) has a player by surname of Arthur in the Fitzroy team and kicking a goal, with no reference to McDougall that I can see
https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=FeU7AAAAIBAJ&sjid=OCsMAAAAIBAJ&pg=646%2C22219060
This list has an Alf McDougall in Fitzroy team
http://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1900/061119000526.html
but match report printed in The Herald that day (above this linked one) has a player by surname of Arthur in the Fitzroy team and kicking a goal, with no reference to McDougall that I can see
https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=FeU7AAAAIBAJ&sjid=OCsMAAAAIBAJ&pg=646%2C22219060
This is starting to get messy! The Argus mentions Arthur as well. It only says "Drohan and Clarke were away from the team", and names Beacham (Beauchamp) as coming into it. No mention of McDougall.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/9542543
McDougal(l) is mentioned in Fitzroy's previous game (played 2 days earlier!) No sign of Arthur:-
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/9542209
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/9542209
The Fitzroy City Press says "McDougall was very much improved on his Thursday's form"
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/65667549
This, from The Australasian is very interesting (no mention of McDougall):- Kiernan, W. Dalton, "Arthur," and Barker in that order were prominent factors forward:
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/139780483
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Might have found another Fitzroy "problem" - different player named in the 1900 Round 5 match:
This list has an Alf McDougall in Fitzroy team
http://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1900/061119000526.html
but match report printed in The Herald that day (above this linked one) has a player by surname of Arthur in the Fitzroy team and kicking a goal, with no reference to McDougall that I can see
https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=FeU7AAAAIBAJ&sjid=OCsMAAAAIBAJ&pg=646%2C22219060
Yes, a messy process indeed. I came across the Fitzroy City Press article this afternoon, so now am wondering about validity of my original concerns.
Guess we can only push on and find as many sources as possible.
This list has an Alf McDougall in Fitzroy team
http://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1900/061119000526.html
but match report printed in The Herald that day (above this linked one) has a player by surname of Arthur in the Fitzroy team and kicking a goal, with no reference to McDougall that I can see
https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=FeU7AAAAIBAJ&sjid=OCsMAAAAIBAJ&pg=646%2C22219060
Yes, a messy process indeed. I came across the Fitzroy City Press article this afternoon, so now am wondering about validity of my original concerns.
Guess we can only push on and find as many sources as possible.
Not sure if you've seen the bit I've just added from The Australasian, but why did they have Arthur in quotation marks? Perhaps McDougall was playing under an assumed name that day for some reason?
Arthur should have been mentioned as an 'in' or 'out' at some stage but wasn't, McDougall looks to have played the games before and after the Melbourne clash yet he gets no mention either as an 'in' or 'out', so I suspect he was there all along.
The Age also has Arthur in quotation marks:-
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/190057899
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I've heard again from Steve Rodgers (AFL Statistics) regarding the Fitzroy 1907 team lineups. Here's the relevant parts of his email:-
================================================================================================
I've taken on-board all those extra rounds, you mentioned in your email.
I had another crack at it this afternoon, so hopefully we can put this whole thing to bed a.s.a.p.
You mentioned, you didn't have a chance to check Round 15, the Fitz v Geel match. Well, there's one there too. In should be Edgeley, out should be Billings - confirmed in The Herald preamble: The Fitz team included Edgeley (Collingwood Juniors).
It's the exact same 'mistake' for next week, the Round 16 match, Fitz v Coll, which you've already noted.
In my first email to you, I noted the changes, applying to Rounds 6, 8, 9, and 11.
I'm therefore now listing the changes to the other rounds (virtually just confirming, I know, the changes you've told me).
Round IN should be OUT should be
10 R.Smith C.Naismith
14 W.Blacklock A.Appleton
15 J.Edgeley S.Billings
16 J.Edgeley S.Billings
17 C.Taylor C.Naismith
There are therefore changes, for Fitz 1907, to Rounds 6, 8, 9, 10, 11, 14, 15, 16, 17.
Ignore the old and new games totals, of my earlier email. This is now the revised, comprehensive list:
New total Old total
Alf Appleton 5 6
Alf Bartlett 11 12
Tammy Beauchamp 16 17
Syd Billings 12 14
Bill Blacklock 6 4
Jack Edgeley 3 1
George McWilliam 3 2
Charlie Naismith 8 12
Bob Smith 11 8
Charles Taylor* 1 0
* In the case of Taylor, of course, it means his career now starts in 1907, not 1908. (That's a heap of changes for Col, including - re Taylor - player numbers for the season, number of recruits in 1907, in 1908, etc. Rest assured, I will sit down with Col tomorrow morning, and we'll thrash all this out! Obviously, also, a heap of changes for Russell, and The Encyclopedia of players, down the track.)
Please run your eye over all this, and be in touch again, if there's ANYTHING you're still not comfortable with.
================================================================================================
I've taken on-board all those extra rounds, you mentioned in your email.
I had another crack at it this afternoon, so hopefully we can put this whole thing to bed a.s.a.p.
You mentioned, you didn't have a chance to check Round 15, the Fitz v Geel match. Well, there's one there too. In should be Edgeley, out should be Billings - confirmed in The Herald preamble: The Fitz team included Edgeley (Collingwood Juniors).
It's the exact same 'mistake' for next week, the Round 16 match, Fitz v Coll, which you've already noted.
In my first email to you, I noted the changes, applying to Rounds 6, 8, 9, and 11.
I'm therefore now listing the changes to the other rounds (virtually just confirming, I know, the changes you've told me).
Round IN should be OUT should be
10 R.Smith C.Naismith
14 W.Blacklock A.Appleton
15 J.Edgeley S.Billings
16 J.Edgeley S.Billings
17 C.Taylor C.Naismith
There are therefore changes, for Fitz 1907, to Rounds 6, 8, 9, 10, 11, 14, 15, 16, 17.
Ignore the old and new games totals, of my earlier email. This is now the revised, comprehensive list:
New total Old total
Alf Appleton 5 6
Alf Bartlett 11 12
Tammy Beauchamp 16 17
Syd Billings 12 14
Bill Blacklock 6 4
Jack Edgeley 3 1
George McWilliam 3 2
Charlie Naismith 8 12
Bob Smith 11 8
Charles Taylor* 1 0
* In the case of Taylor, of course, it means his career now starts in 1907, not 1908. (That's a heap of changes for Col, including - re Taylor - player numbers for the season, number of recruits in 1907, in 1908, etc. Rest assured, I will sit down with Col tomorrow morning, and we'll thrash all this out! Obviously, also, a heap of changes for Russell, and The Encyclopedia of players, down the track.)
Please run your eye over all this, and be in touch again, if there's ANYTHING you're still not comfortable with.
Well, I'm glad there has been some more detailed research done on the 1907 Fitzroy teams match-by-match.
And good timing for the next edition of players encyclopedia as a new edition is probably due out early in the 2016 season.
And good timing for the next edition of players encyclopedia as a new edition is probably due out early in the 2016 season.
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This looks good to me - I have now cross checked every player in every match against The Herald, The Argus and The Age in 1907 and haven't found anything else wrong - just the usual mis-spellings, some incorrect initials and the Con Molan (Con Ryan) discrepancy (well documented esewhere).
Another instance found where the VFL/AFL match-by-match coaches list needs to be updated.
This time relating to the Melbourne Football Club and whether Carl Ditterich coached while under suspension
vs Hawthorn in Round 8 on 26 May 1979.
The information found appears to confirm that Frank Davis should be credited as coaching that day, especially when you consider the VFL met on the Tuesday after that match and agreed to let Ditterich coach the next week. If he'd coached that game in the first week of his suspension, they wouldn't have needed to make such a decision.
A photo & article in The Age on Monday 28 May comments that Ditterich was in a box next to the press box, but not necessarily using the space to coach from. A piece in The Mercury of same date reviews the VFL weekend results and specifically states that Davis coached the Melbourne team.
Hopefully, a piece in The Sun, Herald and/or Sporting Globe also confirms Davis, but I cannot check as none of those papers is available here in Tas.
Trove has a handful of articles from the Camberra Times which I think also confirm that Ditterich was not coach for week one of his suspension, but was for week two:
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/result?q=ditterich+melbourne&dateFrom=1979-05-22&dateTo=1979-06-06
This time relating to the Melbourne Football Club and whether Carl Ditterich coached while under suspension
vs Hawthorn in Round 8 on 26 May 1979.
The information found appears to confirm that Frank Davis should be credited as coaching that day, especially when you consider the VFL met on the Tuesday after that match and agreed to let Ditterich coach the next week. If he'd coached that game in the first week of his suspension, they wouldn't have needed to make such a decision.
A photo & article in The Age on Monday 28 May comments that Ditterich was in a box next to the press box, but not necessarily using the space to coach from. A piece in The Mercury of same date reviews the VFL weekend results and specifically states that Davis coached the Melbourne team.
Hopefully, a piece in The Sun, Herald and/or Sporting Globe also confirms Davis, but I cannot check as none of those papers is available here in Tas.
Trove has a handful of articles from the Camberra Times which I think also confirm that Ditterich was not coach for week one of his suspension, but was for week two:
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/result?q=ditterich+melbourne&dateFrom=1979-05-22&dateTo=1979-06-06
This is from the 1979 Round 9 Football Record (page 4):-
While Stewart has his problems to sort out, former St. Kilda clubmate Carl Ditterich has his worries against second-placed North
Melbourne. Ditterich, who still has one week of a suspension to serve, has been given VFL Board approval to coach Melbourne and the
rules have now been changed to allow suspended playing coaches to carry out their duties.
On the next page it says (under his photo) "CARL DITTERICH. . . can now coach again." There's no mention of Davis that I can see. The SLV rather strangely has a few pages from "night series" games Records tacked on in front of the Records for rounds 8 & 9.
http://demonwiki.org/tiki-index.php?page=Frank+Davis
He served as an assistant to Carl Ditterich in 1979 and was Davis was touted as a replacement senior coach for Ditterich when he was suspended for the Round 8, 1979 match against Hawthorn but Carl coached the match without entering the arena at the quarter time breaks and was credited with the game on his coaching record.
