Hird to have his say

[grassrootsfooty]

Lol, have you ever set foot in a gym? I have seen guys of all age and body types bulk up without going on the gear. Footballers are no different. Its all about your program and diet and to try and infer all players are on it is pretty poor.

Ive stepped in a hundred gyms, been on the juice, tried HGH, and currently taking DHEA. All perscribed by the doc. At a certain age your pituiraty gland slows some younger than others, sometimes as young as 20, which decreases the output of HGH. So those initial gains are great but most footballers would have had those gains at a very early age, so drugs like those mentioned take you to the next level.

Personally steroids were a bit harsh on me and had some shit side affects HGH was ok, but this DHEA is great, it helps with cutting you and gives you lean gains. Also its pretty much known as the anti aging drug helps with your memory and is perscribed a lot in QLD where the oldies live. Some say it shouldnt need to be perscribed and anyone over the age of 40 should take compulsary. It actually is available over the counter in the US but Australia has hell strict laws

This drug DHEA probably has less side affects than say what Carlisle was putting into his body and even alcohol, who knows in years to come we all could be taking it to help with dementia and other illnesses.

 

[the conch]

yeah, but all the AFL players are on the weights programs starting at jnr levels, so they have exhausted a degree of these latent gains. And everyone is training their explosive power muscles in their legs. Everyone else seeks to achieve what NF achieved. *


*so how does this reconcile with my position that "all are at it". read more of blackcat for the nuanced extrapolation

Blackcat's in his element folks... expounding on his thesis

 

[stfan]

m8, people lie. they wont dob in a mate. I said re the list: a greater semblance of the truth. not outright lies.

You are kidding are you not?

How could every player not be "outright lying" if Zac did actually have the injections?

Sounds like you are qualified to become an EFC employee.

Anyway your scenario that he did have injections is fascical. He may or may not be afraid of needles, and may have used it as a ruse to not have the injections, but I very, very much doubt that your assertion is correct.

 

[Just interested]

One of Orstraya's better known drinkers of the anti-ageing cure all aficionado's bathwater:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aziz_Shavershian

Even last week, a common, garden variety off the shelf supplement containing chromium, was shown to have up to 20 times the recommended daily intake of chromium PER PILL.

And, even half decent medical research had shown that at the lower, recommended levels it was useless, and at the elevated levels in the off the shelf pills significantly elevated the risk of growing carcinomas in various places.

Got an identified deficiency, fine, replace what's missing.

But, otherwise, pure and proven folly.

Even in Yanquiland, the entirely corporate captured FDA and other relevant health regulators will not accredit the anti-ageing industry, despite massive spending on lobbyists.....in the home of lobbyists.

Alternatively, Robin Willcourt welcomes your business, and your gullibility.

- recent experience is no guide to future performance.

 

[grassrootsfooty]

One of Orstraya's better known drinkers of the anti-ageing cure all aficionado's bathwater:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aziz_Shavershian

Even last week, a common, garden variety off the shelf supplement containing chromium, was shown to have up to 20 times the recommended daily intake of chromium PER PILL.

And, even half decent medical research had shown that at the lower, recommended levels it was useless, and at the elevated levels in the off the shelf pills significantly elevated the risk of growing carcinomas in various places.

Got an identified deficiency, fine, replace what's missing.

But, otherwise, pure and proven folly.

Even in Yanquiland, the entirely corporate captured FDA and other relevant health regulators will not accredit the anti-ageing industry, despite massive spending on lobbyists.....in the home of lobbyists.

Alternatively, Robin Willcourt welcomes your business, and your gullibility.

- recent experience is no guide to future performance.

Zyzz was a physco he didn't take a break from roids if a doc perscribes them it's for a maximum period of 3 months for a recovery period, as I said roids are pretty damn harsh but HGH is softer and DHEA is legal and commonly used in America. As for gullibility DHEA gives you great gains and reduces body fat better than any BS pill you buy from the health store. Best to see your doc get it prescribed and get results!

 

[blackcat]

You are kidding are you not?

How could every player not be "outright lying" if Zac did actually have the injections?

cos 90% of what they said in the interviews was plausible and sounded as if it could be the truth.

limited hangout dude
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limited_hangout ...propaganda technique that involves the release of previously hidden information in order to prevent a greater exposure of more important details.
It takes the form of deception, misdirection, or coverup often associated with intelligence agencies involving a release or "mea culpa" type of confession of only part of a set of previously hidden sensitive information, that establishes credibility for the one releasing the information who by the very act of confession appears to be "coming clean" and acting with integrity; but in actuality, by withholding key facts, is protecting a deeper operation and those who could be exposed if the whole truth came out.
In effect, if an array of offenses or misdeeds is suspected, this confession admits to a lesser offense while covering up the greater ones.

 

[stfan]

cos 90% of what they said in the interviews was plausible and sounded as if it could be the truth.

limited hangout dude
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limited_hangout ...propaganda technique that involves the release of previously hidden information in order to prevent a greater exposure of more important details.
It takes the form of deception, misdirection, or coverup often associated with intelligence agencies involving a release or "mea culpa" type of confession of only part of a set of previously hidden sensitive information, that establishes credibility for the one releasing the information who by the very act of confession appears to be "coming clean" and acting with integrity; but in actuality, by withholding key facts, is protecting a deeper operation and those who could be exposed if the whole truth came out.
In effect, if an array of offenses or misdeeds is suspected, this confession admits to a lesser offense while covering up the greater ones.

I think you have been smoking what the EFC players were injecting....


PS: Dude ( I assume dude adds credibility)

 

[Just interested]

Martin Hardie chats to David Evans, David Evans collapses.

This an excerpt from Hardie's book. Generally an uninteresting coot, Hardie, and he keeps up his disingenuous drum banging in this excerpt (driven by his inability or unwillingness to view anti-doping codes in anything other than isolation from other harm prevention mechanisms).

But, there are some interesting claims. Apol's for the length, but a link would be useless if you don't subscribe to Crikey.

And good to see Marty coming to grips with the bus-throw-undery arts.

"Did David Evans know about Essendon's performance-enhancing program?

MARTIN HARDIE
Deakin University Law School lecturer

In mid to late 2013 Martin Hardie, a legal academic from Deakin University who has conducted long-term research into the anti-doping regimes in Australian and international cycling, was approached to provide assistance to the Essendon Football Club following the claims made about the club's use of supplements during the 2011-2012 season. What follows is an extract from his forthcoming book on those events.

During that time when it seemed former Essendon chairman David Evans was wanting out in 2013, I had travelled to Arnhem Land to attend the funeral of an old friend, the singer from the band Yothu Yindi. On the way I worked on an advice for Essendon Football Club on the status of the peptide AOD-9604, a substance that I had felt was not prohibited by the World Anti-Doping Code. The more I looked at the facts of that I had at the time and the WADA Prohibited List I was convinced that Essendon had not breached any anti-doping rules. Neither AOD-9604 nor Thymomodulin appeared to fit into the category of a banned substance. From what I could work out at that time this was also what people within the club thought during 2012.

I used the flight up and back to Arnhem Land to get my thoughts into order. While I was away I also thought it would be good to get a bit of a handle on the way things worked. As always I wanted to conduct a bit of anthropology and start to observe the club and the sport. The way that sport was run, with its privileging of brand management over facts, was something that fascinated me and had driven me to write a PhD on doping, cycling and the law. So when I got back I asked David Evans if I could come to the game against Hawthorn at Etihad Stadium on July 23, 2013. I hadn’t been to an Aussie rules game for at least 15 years, probably more. I told Evans that I also wanted to run something past him, something that would give me a feel for how things had developed and where they might be heading. I was still pretty naive and green in this world of AFL politics.

Late that Friday afternoon I had caught the private lift again to pick up my ticket for the game, I was in my favorite shirt and jacket, the products of a well-known Barcelona design house. They went well with my reasonably new Levis and warm winter cap. On leaving the office of Evans and Partners with my ticket, I met Evans, his wife and son in the lift. David had been off the week before, it was clear from his drawn and tired face that this business was starting to wear him down. I had already looked in the envelope he had left for me at reception -- a ticket to the president’s dinner, an AFL function where the home side (as much as anyone can be the home side at a stadium like Etihad) hosted a function for the visitors. I had thought I was just going to the footy, but the first thing I noted when I opened the envelope was "no denim" and "tie". I had one (that was prohibited) but not the other (that was prescribed). A remnant from my rugby league upbringing, I guess, as someone later remarked to me when she looked down her nose when I told her I was brought up in a league family! But Evans had said it would be OK; he was, of course, the president.

Another special lift ride, up to the function room at Etihad, old Fitzroy memorabilia, some of it seemed to have belonged in Jack Irish’s local, The Prince of Prussia, a long room filled with dinner-suited guests and flashy frocks. My seat was at a table of moneyed Essendon and Hawthorn diehards. At one point we did talk about the old days of footy and the use of amphetamines at half time, but for the most part, I was all alone and I made small talk as necessary and enjoyed the food and wine, the view outside to the stadium and the covered playing surface below.

For a little time I chatted for a while with Lindsay Tanner, now the chairman of the board at Essendon, then a high-profile member of the club, who had been seated at the president’s table. I told him that we had met once before, in Darwin, when he was with my old rugby coach and Labor minister, Warren Snowdon. He called Wazza "the animal", a reference to the way he played the game I guess, but quite possibly as well to the way he played politics. I told him I was helping the club, that I didn’t really understand the way they were playing it, that I was yet to be convinced that Stephen Dank, the sports scientist in charge of the program, had done anything wrong. He kind of looked at me cross-eyed when I said that.

At half time I finally managed to get Evans alone. I knelt on one knee beside him whilst he sat at the main table; it was not a sign of subservience, but just better on my bad back. I said to Evans that I needed to talk to him about something Steve Dank had said to me when he had contacted me some months before. Evans already knew that I had been in contact with Dank before the club had asked me to help out. Dank had rung me one Sunday in the early autumn, and we had remained in contact ever since. Evans said I should tell it, whatever it was, to the club’s lawyer, Tony Hargreaves. I replied I wasn’t sure if that was a good idea, that maybe it wasn’t the kind of thing he should know, unless Evans OKed it first. His reply was a bit short; I knew he had had a hard week, but my feeling was it was better to be clear and open about things. He said: “what is it, then?” So I told him the story …

Dank had told me a story well before I started doing any work for Essendon, and it been going around in my head as it didn’t fit with the rogue program narrative, the lack of governance line, being perpetuated on an almost daily basis in the media. I’ve never really bought the lack of governance line -- from what I had already learnt and what I have learnt since, the program, which appeared to me to be legal, was pretty well documented for a performance-enhancement program in sport. To be clear, performance enhancement is not banned in sport, only some forms, methods and substances. To talk about the use of performance-enhancing substances misses the point; it’s better to talk about prohibited substances and others that are not. What Essendon had done was better documented than what I had seen in cycling, I had seen the records of a few doping programs in Europe and used some in my PhD thesis. The Essendon program had much better-informed and consenting athletes compared to what I had seen in cycling and to things I had learnt recently about programs run within swimming in Australia.

The story I had been told and recounted to Evans that night at Etihad took place on June 23, 2012, at the team dinner in Fremantle, after Essendon had defeated the home side for the first time in Freo for a long time. It was the same day that Black Caviar had won at Royal Ascot. Dank’s version was that Evans leant over to Dank and then fitness coach Dean Robinson (who were at the table next to his) and said, "That horse must be on stuff as good as you are giving our players". Dank took it as a compliment -- that things were going well and that Evans was happy with it all. Neither he nor I since took it as any form of admission that any rule-breaking was going on. Neither did Dean Robinson when we discussed it much later on.

It was months later, probably December 2013 when I asked Robinson for his account -- it was the same as Dank's -- and they hadn't spoken for months; they still haven’t spoken. Since the whole thing blew open, Robinson had become an island unto himself. Since he had been marched off Windy Hill in 2013 without any real explanation he had not been in contact with anyone within the club. He was a broken man, wallowing in the darkness still not knowing or quite understanding why it had all been blamed on him. Importantly, however, giving further credence to the story, Robinson had told it to Channel Seven in his (in)famous interview earlier that year, but that part of it never made it to air.

When I had finished the story Evans replied, “that’s ****ing bullshit”. I was told to tell Dank that Evans would sue him for defamation if he said it again. I said “that’s fine, I’ll pass the message on, but that I thought he should at least know what I had been told” and that was that. That’s what I thought, anyway.

After the game I tried to get down to the rooms to meet Mark "Bomber" Thompson. Bomber had been the person who asked Evans to hire me, but we had never met or directly spoken. So I approached Justin Rodski, the Essendon media manager, who I had earlier introduced myself to and asked if he could take me down. His reply was that it wasn't the best time. I left and caught the train home. My other conversation with Rodski that night concerned Evans' request for me to help with the "message". I said to Rodski that I thought they needed to handle it better -- he replied that he thought they were doing a good job. At this stage Liz Lukin was still embedded in the club conducting her particular brand of crisis management.

Of course when I got up the next morning I learnt that Evans had collapsed in the rooms and had stood down as president. I had no ill will towards Evans, and I still don’t -- he was a man stuck in the middle of his loyalties to those within the club, his loyalties to the AFL machine and to managing the Essendon "brand". It mustn’t have been an easy position, and that was clear from the toll it was taking on him.

The story, if it did happen, contained a simple acknowledgement of giving players stuff, and would not by itself imply anything untoward. But if Dank and Robinson’s story is true it would suggest that Evans and the club’s management were aware of what was happening, when it was happening -- not that the players were taking banned substances, but that something was enhancing their performance. It would imply that there was no rogue program, no lack of governance, but a planned program that Evans and the others involved in the club believed was within the rules. That has been my position looking at the evidence, then and now.

What is important is that if the conversation occurred -- and two of the three present attest to the fact that it did -- it casts doubt on the whole narrative run by the government, ASADA, the AFL and the media, the narrative of a rogue scientist and an uncontrolled football department, the narrative that said it was all Dank or Hird’s fault and that Evans and others in management knew nothing about what had gone on until the February "tip off". But to me the Black Caviar story suggests otherwise.

 

[matthew_s]

Martin Hardie chats to David Evans, David Evans collapses.

What is important is that if the conversation occurred -- and two of the three present attest to the fact that it did -- it casts doubt on the whole narrative run by the government, ASADA, the AFL and the media, the narrative of a rogue scientist and an uncontrolled football department, the narrative that said it was all Dank or Hird’s fault and that Evans and others in management knew nothing about what had gone on until the February "tip off". But to me the Black Caviar story suggests otherwise.

I can't wait for this book!

Hardie conveniently leaves out one party happy to run with the rogue scientist theory...Essendon itself.

 

[Satan]

Martin Hardie chats to David Evans, David Evans collapses.

This an excerpt from Hardie's book. Generally an uninteresting coot, Hardie, and he keeps up his disingenuous drum banging in this excerpt (driven by his inability or unwillingness to view anti-doping codes in anything other than isolation from other harm prevention mechanisms).

But, there are some interesting claims. Apol's for the length, but a link would be useless if you don't subscribe to Crikey.

And good to see Marty coming to grips with the bus-throw-undery arts.

"Did David Evans know about Essendon's performance-enhancing program?

MARTIN HARDIE
Deakin University Law School lecturer

In mid to late 2013 Martin Hardie, a legal academic from Deakin University who has conducted long-term research into the anti-doping regimes in Australian and international cycling, was approached to provide assistance to the Essendon Football Club following the claims made about the club's use of supplements during the 2011-2012 season. What follows is an extract from his forthcoming book on those events.

During that time when it seemed former Essendon chairman David Evans was wanting out in 2013, I had travelled to Arnhem Land to attend the funeral of an old friend, the singer from the band Yothu Yindi. On the way I worked on an advice for Essendon Football Club on the status of the peptide AOD-9604, a substance that I had felt was not prohibited by the World Anti-Doping Code. The more I looked at the facts of that I had at the time and the WADA Prohibited List I was convinced that Essendon had not breached any anti-doping rules. Neither AOD-9604 nor Thymomodulin appeared to fit into the category of a banned substance. From what I could work out at that time this was also what people within the club thought during 2012.

I used the flight up and back to Arnhem Land to get my thoughts into order. While I was away I also thought it would be good to get a bit of a handle on the way things worked. As always I wanted to conduct a bit of anthropology and start to observe the club and the sport. The way that sport was run, with its privileging of brand management over facts, was something that fascinated me and had driven me to write a PhD on doping, cycling and the law. So when I got back I asked David Evans if I could come to the game against Hawthorn at Etihad Stadium on July 23, 2013. I hadn’t been to an Aussie rules game for at least 15 years, probably more. I told Evans that I also wanted to run something past him, something that would give me a feel for how things had developed and where they might be heading. I was still pretty naive and green in this world of AFL politics.

Late that Friday afternoon I had caught the private lift again to pick up my ticket for the game, I was in my favorite shirt and jacket, the products of a well-known Barcelona design house. They went well with my reasonably new Levis and warm winter cap. On leaving the office of Evans and Partners with my ticket, I met Evans, his wife and son in the lift. David had been off the week before, it was clear from his drawn and tired face that this business was starting to wear him down. I had already looked in the envelope he had left for me at reception -- a ticket to the president’s dinner, an AFL function where the home side (as much as anyone can be the home side at a stadium like Etihad) hosted a function for the visitors. I had thought I was just going to the footy, but the first thing I noted when I opened the envelope was "no denim" and "tie". I had one (that was prohibited) but not the other (that was prescribed). A remnant from my rugby league upbringing, I guess, as someone later remarked to me when she looked down her nose when I told her I was brought up in a league family! But Evans had said it would be OK; he was, of course, the president.

Another special lift ride, up to the function room at Etihad, old Fitzroy memorabilia, some of it seemed to have belonged in Jack Irish’s local, The Prince of Prussia, a long room filled with dinner-suited guests and flashy frocks. My seat was at a table of moneyed Essendon and Hawthorn diehards. At one point we did talk about the old days of footy and the use of amphetamines at half time, but for the most part, I was all alone and I made small talk as necessary and enjoyed the food and wine, the view outside to the stadium and the covered playing surface below.

For a little time I chatted for a while with Lindsay Tanner, now the chairman of the board at Essendon, then a high-profile member of the club, who had been seated at the president’s table. I told him that we had met once before, in Darwin, when he was with my old rugby coach and Labor minister, Warren Snowdon. He called Wazza "the animal", a reference to the way he played the game I guess, but quite possibly as well to the way he played politics. I told him I was helping the club, that I didn’t really understand the way they were playing it, that I was yet to be convinced that Stephen Dank, the sports scientist in charge of the program, had done anything wrong. He kind of looked at me cross-eyed when I said that.

At half time I finally managed to get Evans alone. I knelt on one knee beside him whilst he sat at the main table; it was not a sign of subservience, but just better on my bad back. I said to Evans that I needed to talk to him about something Steve Dank had said to me when he had contacted me some months before. Evans already knew that I had been in contact with Dank before the club had asked me to help out. Dank had rung me one Sunday in the early autumn, and we had remained in contact ever since. Evans said I should tell it, whatever it was, to the club’s lawyer, Tony Hargreaves. I replied I wasn’t sure if that was a good idea, that maybe it wasn’t the kind of thing he should know, unless Evans OKed it first. His reply was a bit short; I knew he had had a hard week, but my feeling was it was better to be clear and open about things. He said: “what is it, then?” So I told him the story …

Dank had told me a story well before I started doing any work for Essendon, and it been going around in my head as it didn’t fit with the rogue program narrative, the lack of governance line, being perpetuated on an almost daily basis in the media. I’ve never really bought the lack of governance line -- from what I had already learnt and what I have learnt since, the program, which appeared to me to be legal, was pretty well documented for a performance-enhancement program in sport. To be clear, performance enhancement is not banned in sport, only some forms, methods and substances. To talk about the use of performance-enhancing substances misses the point; it’s better to talk about prohibited substances and others that are not. What Essendon had done was better documented than what I had seen in cycling, I had seen the records of a few doping programs in Europe and used some in my PhD thesis. The Essendon program had much better-informed and consenting athletes compared to what I had seen in cycling and to things I had learnt recently about programs run within swimming in Australia.

The story I had been told and recounted to Evans that night at Etihad took place on June 23, 2012, at the team dinner in Fremantle, after Essendon had defeated the home side for the first time in Freo for a long time. It was the same day that Black Caviar had won at Royal Ascot. Dank’s version was that Evans leant over to Dank and then fitness coach Dean Robinson (who were at the table next to his) and said, "That horse must be on stuff as good as you are giving our players". Dank took it as a compliment -- that things were going well and that Evans was happy with it all. Neither he nor I since took it as any form of admission that any rule-breaking was going on. Neither did Dean Robinson when we discussed it much later on.

It was months later, probably December 2013 when I asked Robinson for his account -- it was the same as Dank's -- and they hadn't spoken for months; they still haven’t spoken. Since the whole thing blew open, Robinson had become an island unto himself. Since he had been marched off Windy Hill in 2013 without any real explanation he had not been in contact with anyone within the club. He was a broken man, wallowing in the darkness still not knowing or quite understanding why it had all been blamed on him. Importantly, however, giving further credence to the story, Robinson had told it to Channel Seven in his (in)famous interview earlier that year, but that part of it never made it to air.

When I had finished the story Evans replied, “that’s ******* bullshit”. I was told to tell Dank that Evans would sue him for defamation if he said it again. I said “that’s fine, I’ll pass the message on, but that I thought he should at least know what I had been told” and that was that. That’s what I thought, anyway.

After the game I tried to get down to the rooms to meet Mark "Bomber" Thompson. Bomber had been the person who asked Evans to hire me, but we had never met or directly spoken. So I approached Justin Rodski, the Essendon media manager, who I had earlier introduced myself to and asked if he could take me down. His reply was that it wasn't the best time. I left and caught the train home. My other conversation with Rodski that night concerned Evans' request for me to help with the "message". I said to Rodski that I thought they needed to handle it better -- he replied that he thought they were doing a good job. At this stage Liz Lukin was still embedded in the club conducting her particular brand of crisis management.

Of course when I got up the next morning I learnt that Evans had collapsed in the rooms and had stood down as president. I had no ill will towards Evans, and I still don’t -- he was a man stuck in the middle of his loyalties to those within the club, his loyalties to the AFL machine and to managing the Essendon "brand". It mustn’t have been an easy position, and that was clear from the toll it was taking on him.

The story, if it did happen, contained a simple acknowledgement of giving players stuff, and would not by itself imply anything untoward. But if Dank and Robinson’s story is true it would suggest that Evans and the club’s management were aware of what was happening, when it was happening -- not that the players were taking banned substances, but that something was enhancing their performance. It would imply that there was no rogue program, no lack of governance, but a planned program that Evans and the others involved in the club believed was within the rules. That has been my position looking at the evidence, then and now.

What is important is that if the conversation occurred -- and two of the three present attest to the fact that it did -- it casts doubt on the whole narrative run by the government, ASADA, the AFL and the media, the narrative of a rogue scientist and an uncontrolled football department, the narrative that said it was all Dank or Hird’s fault and that Evans and others in management knew nothing about what had gone on until the February "tip off". But to me the Black Caviar story suggests otherwise.

All that sea air has rusted his brain?

 

[Randomizor]

My god that was hard to read. I care so little about Hardie's jacket or bad back. I hope the editor writes back "good story, just remove all the useless crap about yourself".

That passages just confirms what most people already think or know doesn't it?

 

[nineteen eighty]

My god that was hard to read. I care so little about Hardie's jacket or bad back. I hope the editor writes back "good story, just remove all the useless crap about yourself".

That passages just confirms what most people already think or know doesn't it?

You're not impressed with him being friends with Yothu Yindi?

As for the following:

It was the same day that Black Caviar had won at Royal Ascot. Dank’s version was that Evans leant over to Dank and then fitness coach Dean Robinson (who were at the table next to his) and said, "That horse must be on stuff as good as you are giving our players".​

Fair to say going by the following text exchange between Dank and his chemist and knowing now about good ole Moody and his ways that the 2 (Black Caviar and EFC) were on the same gear:

Dank: Can the AOD and the Thymosin be mixed?

Pharmacist: I can test it out. Also, is there a problem with giving them an anaesthetic in the muscle? I have discovered a new polymer which will provide a slow release system while repairing damaged cell walls. Intramuscular injection.

Dank: No problems with that all.

Dank: Is it efficacious?

Pharmacist: Very much so. It's amazing and being used in the USA for elite horse racing. I can even put the thymosin and AOD in it.

Dank: Perfect let's get going.

 

[Blue1980]

Does Hardie prove or disprove anything with this?

Essendon's record keeping was good? There are no @$#%^ records!

Examples of bad record keeping in cycling and swimming? Where are they? And if they are worse (Which would mean basically injecting players when they weren't looking, anytime, anywhere), why does this exonerate Essendon?

 

[dockerfemme]

If there were good records this makes his mate, Dank, seem more competent. However, if they did exist and Essendon chose to destroy them, this does not look good for anyone.

 

[The 747]

If there were good records this makes his mate, Dank, seem more competent. However, if they did exist and Essendon chose to destroy them, this does not look good for anyone.

Hmmm please don't believe the line they have no records. They have records, always have.

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

he closed off by saying that he would be there for the players

Who needs enemies when you have a friendly father figure in st James...

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

so. The players had thymosin written on their consents so it was common knowledge

... That they were cheating taking a banned substances!

Should have been straight forward really if not for all the legals & Afl damage limitation strategy.

 

[Just interested]

You're not impressed with him being friends with Yothu Yindi?

As for the following:

It was the same day that Black Caviar had won at Royal Ascot. Dank’s version was that Evans leant over to Dank and then fitness coach Dean Robinson (who were at the table next to his) and said, "That horse must be on stuff as good as you are giving our players".​

Fair to say going by the following text exchange between Dank and his chemist and knowing now about good ole Moody and his ways that the 2 (Black Caviar and EFC) were on the same gear:

Dank: Can the AOD and the Thymosin be mixed?

Pharmacist: I can test it out. Also, is there a problem with giving them an anaesthetic in the muscle? I have discovered a new polymer which will provide a slow release system while repairing damaged cell walls. Intramuscular injection.

Dank: No problems with that all.

Dank: Is it efficacious?

Pharmacist: Very much so. It's amazing and being used in the USA for elite horse racing. I can even put the thymosin and AOD in it.

Dank: Perfect let's get going.

Ah, my all time favourite text message, a.k.a. "The DMSO SMS."

Didya know there's a Thymosin Beta 4 Sulphoxide getting about?

 

[Just interested]

Does Hardie prove or disprove anything with this?

Essendon's record keeping was good? There are no @$#%^ records!

Examples of bad record keeping in cycling and swimming? Where are they? And if they are worse (Which would mean basically injecting players when they weren't looking, anytime, anywhere), why does this exonerate Essendon?

Maybe he's an adherent to the legal principle of lowest common denominator as precedent?

 

[Blue1980]

Maybe he's an adherent to the legal principle of lowest common denominator as precedent?

I guess someone should be cleared of a crime if unreported speculated crimes are worse

 

[OneGreatClub]

Martin Hardie chats to David Evans, David Evans collapses.

This an excerpt from Hardie's book. Generally an uninteresting coot, Hardie, and he keeps up his disingenuous drum banging in this excerpt (driven by his inability or unwillingness to view anti-doping codes in anything other than isolation from other harm prevention mechanisms).

But, there are some interesting claims. Apol's for the length, but a link would be useless if you don't subscribe to Crikey.

And good to see Marty coming to grips with the bus-throw-undery arts.

"Did David Evans know about Essendon's performance-enhancing program?

MARTIN HARDIE
Deakin University Law School lecturer

In mid to late 2013 Martin Hardie, a legal academic from Deakin University who has conducted long-term research into the anti-doping regimes in Australian and international cycling, was approached to provide assistance to the Essendon Football Club following the claims made about the club's use of supplements during the 2011-2012 season. What follows is an extract from his forthcoming book on those events.

During that time when it seemed former Essendon chairman David Evans was wanting out in 2013, I had travelled to Arnhem Land to attend the funeral of an old friend, the singer from the band Yothu Yindi. On the way I worked on an advice for Essendon Football Club on the status of the peptide AOD-9604, a substance that I had felt was not prohibited by the World Anti-Doping Code. The more I looked at the facts of that I had at the time and the WADA Prohibited List I was convinced that Essendon had not breached any anti-doping rules. Neither AOD-9604 nor Thymomodulin appeared to fit into the category of a banned substance. From what I could work out at that time this was also what people within the club thought during 2012.

I used the flight up and back to Arnhem Land to get my thoughts into order. While I was away I also thought it would be good to get a bit of a handle on the way things worked. As always I wanted to conduct a bit of anthropology and start to observe the club and the sport. The way that sport was run, with its privileging of brand management over facts, was something that fascinated me and had driven me to write a PhD on doping, cycling and the law. So when I got back I asked David Evans if I could come to the game against Hawthorn at Etihad Stadium on July 23, 2013. I hadn’t been to an Aussie rules game for at least 15 years, probably more. I told Evans that I also wanted to run something past him, something that would give me a feel for how things had developed and where they might be heading. I was still pretty naive and green in this world of AFL politics.

Late that Friday afternoon I had caught the private lift again to pick up my ticket for the game, I was in my favorite shirt and jacket, the products of a well-known Barcelona design house. They went well with my reasonably new Levis and warm winter cap. On leaving the office of Evans and Partners with my ticket, I met Evans, his wife and son in the lift. David had been off the week before, it was clear from his drawn and tired face that this business was starting to wear him down. I had already looked in the envelope he had left for me at reception -- a ticket to the president’s dinner, an AFL function where the home side (as much as anyone can be the home side at a stadium like Etihad) hosted a function for the visitors. I had thought I was just going to the footy, but the first thing I noted when I opened the envelope was "no denim" and "tie". I had one (that was prohibited) but not the other (that was prescribed). A remnant from my rugby league upbringing, I guess, as someone later remarked to me when she looked down her nose when I told her I was brought up in a league family! But Evans had said it would be OK; he was, of course, the president.

Another special lift ride, up to the function room at Etihad, old Fitzroy memorabilia, some of it seemed to have belonged in Jack Irish’s local, The Prince of Prussia, a long room filled with dinner-suited guests and flashy frocks. My seat was at a table of moneyed Essendon and Hawthorn diehards. At one point we did talk about the old days of footy and the use of amphetamines at half time, but for the most part, I was all alone and I made small talk as necessary and enjoyed the food and wine, the view outside to the stadium and the covered playing surface below.

For a little time I chatted for a while with Lindsay Tanner, now the chairman of the board at Essendon, then a high-profile member of the club, who had been seated at the president’s table. I told him that we had met once before, in Darwin, when he was with my old rugby coach and Labor minister, Warren Snowdon. He called Wazza "the animal", a reference to the way he played the game I guess, but quite possibly as well to the way he played politics. I told him I was helping the club, that I didn’t really understand the way they were playing it, that I was yet to be convinced that Stephen Dank, the sports scientist in charge of the program, had done anything wrong. He kind of looked at me cross-eyed when I said that.

At half time I finally managed to get Evans alone. I knelt on one knee beside him whilst he sat at the main table; it was not a sign of subservience, but just better on my bad back. I said to Evans that I needed to talk to him about something Steve Dank had said to me when he had contacted me some months before. Evans already knew that I had been in contact with Dank before the club had asked me to help out. Dank had rung me one Sunday in the early autumn, and we had remained in contact ever since. Evans said I should tell it, whatever it was, to the club’s lawyer, Tony Hargreaves. I replied I wasn’t sure if that was a good idea, that maybe it wasn’t the kind of thing he should know, unless Evans OKed it first. His reply was a bit short; I knew he had had a hard week, but my feeling was it was better to be clear and open about things. He said: “what is it, then?” So I told him the story …

Dank had told me a story well before I started doing any work for Essendon, and it been going around in my head as it didn’t fit with the rogue program narrative, the lack of governance line, being perpetuated on an almost daily basis in the media. I’ve never really bought the lack of governance line -- from what I had already learnt and what I have learnt since, the program, which appeared to me to be legal, was pretty well documented for a performance-enhancement program in sport. To be clear, performance enhancement is not banned in sport, only some forms, methods and substances. To talk about the use of performance-enhancing substances misses the point; it’s better to talk about prohibited substances and others that are not. What Essendon had done was better documented than what I had seen in cycling, I had seen the records of a few doping programs in Europe and used some in my PhD thesis. The Essendon program had much better-informed and consenting athletes compared to what I had seen in cycling and to things I had learnt recently about programs run within swimming in Australia.

The story I had been told and recounted to Evans that night at Etihad took place on June 23, 2012, at the team dinner in Fremantle, after Essendon had defeated the home side for the first time in Freo for a long time. It was the same day that Black Caviar had won at Royal Ascot. Dank’s version was that Evans leant over to Dank and then fitness coach Dean Robinson (who were at the table next to his) and said, "That horse must be on stuff as good as you are giving our players". Dank took it as a compliment -- that things were going well and that Evans was happy with it all. Neither he nor I since took it as any form of admission that any rule-breaking was going on. Neither did Dean Robinson when we discussed it much later on.

It was months later, probably December 2013 when I asked Robinson for his account -- it was the same as Dank's -- and they hadn't spoken for months; they still haven’t spoken. Since the whole thing blew open, Robinson had become an island unto himself. Since he had been marched off Windy Hill in 2013 without any real explanation he had not been in contact with anyone within the club. He was a broken man, wallowing in the darkness still not knowing or quite understanding why it had all been blamed on him. Importantly, however, giving further credence to the story, Robinson had told it to Channel Seven in his (in)famous interview earlier that year, but that part of it never made it to air.

When I had finished the story Evans replied, “that’s ******* bullshit”. I was told to tell Dank that Evans would sue him for defamation if he said it again. I said “that’s fine, I’ll pass the message on, but that I thought he should at least know what I had been told” and that was that. That’s what I thought, anyway.

After the game I tried to get down to the rooms to meet Mark "Bomber" Thompson. Bomber had been the person who asked Evans to hire me, but we had never met or directly spoken. So I approached Justin Rodski, the Essendon media manager, who I had earlier introduced myself to and asked if he could take me down. His reply was that it wasn't the best time. I left and caught the train home. My other conversation with Rodski that night concerned Evans' request for me to help with the "message". I said to Rodski that I thought they needed to handle it better -- he replied that he thought they were doing a good job. At this stage Liz Lukin was still embedded in the club conducting her particular brand of crisis management.

Of course when I got up the next morning I learnt that Evans had collapsed in the rooms and had stood down as president. I had no ill will towards Evans, and I still don’t -- he was a man stuck in the middle of his loyalties to those within the club, his loyalties to the AFL machine and to managing the Essendon "brand". It mustn’t have been an easy position, and that was clear from the toll it was taking on him.

The story, if it did happen, contained a simple acknowledgement of giving players stuff, and would not by itself imply anything untoward. But if Dank and Robinson’s story is true it would suggest that Evans and the club’s management were aware of what was happening, when it was happening -- not that the players were taking banned substances, but that something was enhancing their performance. It would imply that there was no rogue program, no lack of governance, but a planned program that Evans and the others involved in the club believed was within the rules. That has been my position looking at the evidence, then and now.

What is important is that if the conversation occurred -- and two of the three present attest to the fact that it did -- it casts doubt on the whole narrative run by the government, ASADA, the AFL and the media, the narrative of a rogue scientist and an uncontrolled football department, the narrative that said it was all Dank or Hird’s fault and that Evans and others in management knew nothing about what had gone on until the February "tip off". But to me the Black Caviar story suggests otherwise.

Mmmmm

 

[Big Fozza]

Martin Hardie chats to David Evans, David Evans collapses.

This an excerpt from Hardie's book. Generally an uninteresting coot, Hardie, and he keeps up his disingenuous drum banging in this excerpt (driven by his inability or unwillingness to view anti-doping codes in anything other than isolation from other harm prevention mechanisms).

But, there are some interesting claims. Apol's for the length, but a link would be useless if you don't subscribe to Crikey.

And good to see Marty coming to grips with the bus-throw-undery arts.

"Did David Evans know about Essendon's performance-enhancing program?

MARTIN HARDIE
Deakin University Law School lecturer

In mid to late 2013 Martin Hardie, a legal academic from Deakin University who has conducted long-term research into the anti-doping regimes in Australian and international cycling, was approached to provide assistance to the Essendon Football Club following the claims made about the club's use of supplements during the 2011-2012 season. What follows is an extract from his forthcoming book on those events.

During that time when it seemed former Essendon chairman David Evans was wanting out in 2013, I had travelled to Arnhem Land to attend the funeral of an old friend, the singer from the band Yothu Yindi. On the way I worked on an advice for Essendon Football Club on the status of the peptide AOD-9604, a substance that I had felt was not prohibited by the World Anti-Doping Code. The more I looked at the facts of that I had at the time and the WADA Prohibited List I was convinced that Essendon had not breached any anti-doping rules. Neither AOD-9604 nor Thymomodulin appeared to fit into the category of a banned substance. From what I could work out at that time this was also what people within the club thought during 2012.

I used the flight up and back to Arnhem Land to get my thoughts into order. While I was away I also thought it would be good to get a bit of a handle on the way things worked. As always I wanted to conduct a bit of anthropology and start to observe the club and the sport. The way that sport was run, with its privileging of brand management over facts, was something that fascinated me and had driven me to write a PhD on doping, cycling and the law. So when I got back I asked David Evans if I could come to the game against Hawthorn at Etihad Stadium on July 23, 2013. I hadn’t been to an Aussie rules game for at least 15 years, probably more. I told Evans that I also wanted to run something past him, something that would give me a feel for how things had developed and where they might be heading. I was still pretty naive and green in this world of AFL politics.

Late that Friday afternoon I had caught the private lift again to pick up my ticket for the game, I was in my favorite shirt and jacket, the products of a well-known Barcelona design house. They went well with my reasonably new Levis and warm winter cap. On leaving the office of Evans and Partners with my ticket, I met Evans, his wife and son in the lift. David had been off the week before, it was clear from his drawn and tired face that this business was starting to wear him down. I had already looked in the envelope he had left for me at reception -- a ticket to the president’s dinner, an AFL function where the home side (as much as anyone can be the home side at a stadium like Etihad) hosted a function for the visitors. I had thought I was just going to the footy, but the first thing I noted when I opened the envelope was "no denim" and "tie". I had one (that was prohibited) but not the other (that was prescribed). A remnant from my rugby league upbringing, I guess, as someone later remarked to me when she looked down her nose when I told her I was brought up in a league family! But Evans had said it would be OK; he was, of course, the president.

Another special lift ride, up to the function room at Etihad, old Fitzroy memorabilia, some of it seemed to have belonged in Jack Irish’s local, The Prince of Prussia, a long room filled with dinner-suited guests and flashy frocks. My seat was at a table of moneyed Essendon and Hawthorn diehards. At one point we did talk about the old days of footy and the use of amphetamines at half time, but for the most part, I was all alone and I made small talk as necessary and enjoyed the food and wine, the view outside to the stadium and the covered playing surface below.

For a little time I chatted for a while with Lindsay Tanner, now the chairman of the board at Essendon, then a high-profile member of the club, who had been seated at the president’s table. I told him that we had met once before, in Darwin, when he was with my old rugby coach and Labor minister, Warren Snowdon. He called Wazza "the animal", a reference to the way he played the game I guess, but quite possibly as well to the way he played politics. I told him I was helping the club, that I didn’t really understand the way they were playing it, that I was yet to be convinced that Stephen Dank, the sports scientist in charge of the program, had done anything wrong. He kind of looked at me cross-eyed when I said that.

At half time I finally managed to get Evans alone. I knelt on one knee beside him whilst he sat at the main table; it was not a sign of subservience, but just better on my bad back. I said to Evans that I needed to talk to him about something Steve Dank had said to me when he had contacted me some months before. Evans already knew that I had been in contact with Dank before the club had asked me to help out. Dank had rung me one Sunday in the early autumn, and we had remained in contact ever since. Evans said I should tell it, whatever it was, to the club’s lawyer, Tony Hargreaves. I replied I wasn’t sure if that was a good idea, that maybe it wasn’t the kind of thing he should know, unless Evans OKed it first. His reply was a bit short; I knew he had had a hard week, but my feeling was it was better to be clear and open about things. He said: “what is it, then?” So I told him the story …

Dank had told me a story well before I started doing any work for Essendon, and it been going around in my head as it didn’t fit with the rogue program narrative, the lack of governance line, being perpetuated on an almost daily basis in the media. I’ve never really bought the lack of governance line -- from what I had already learnt and what I have learnt since, the program, which appeared to me to be legal, was pretty well documented for a performance-enhancement program in sport. To be clear, performance enhancement is not banned in sport, only some forms, methods and substances. To talk about the use of performance-enhancing substances misses the point; it’s better to talk about prohibited substances and others that are not. What Essendon had done was better documented than what I had seen in cycling, I had seen the records of a few doping programs in Europe and used some in my PhD thesis. The Essendon program had much better-informed and consenting athletes compared to what I had seen in cycling and to things I had learnt recently about programs run within swimming in Australia.

The story I had been told and recounted to Evans that night at Etihad took place on June 23, 2012, at the team dinner in Fremantle, after Essendon had defeated the home side for the first time in Freo for a long time. It was the same day that Black Caviar had won at Royal Ascot. Dank’s version was that Evans leant over to Dank and then fitness coach Dean Robinson (who were at the table next to his) and said, "That horse must be on stuff as good as you are giving our players". Dank took it as a compliment -- that things were going well and that Evans was happy with it all. Neither he nor I since took it as any form of admission that any rule-breaking was going on. Neither did Dean Robinson when we discussed it much later on.

It was months later, probably December 2013 when I asked Robinson for his account -- it was the same as Dank's -- and they hadn't spoken for months; they still haven’t spoken. Since the whole thing blew open, Robinson had become an island unto himself. Since he had been marched off Windy Hill in 2013 without any real explanation he had not been in contact with anyone within the club. He was a broken man, wallowing in the darkness still not knowing or quite understanding why it had all been blamed on him. Importantly, however, giving further credence to the story, Robinson had told it to Channel Seven in his (in)famous interview earlier that year, but that part of it never made it to air.

When I had finished the story Evans replied, “that’s ******* bullshit”. I was told to tell Dank that Evans would sue him for defamation if he said it again. I said “that’s fine, I’ll pass the message on, but that I thought he should at least know what I had been told” and that was that. That’s what I thought, anyway.

After the game I tried to get down to the rooms to meet Mark "Bomber" Thompson. Bomber had been the person who asked Evans to hire me, but we had never met or directly spoken. So I approached Justin Rodski, the Essendon media manager, who I had earlier introduced myself to and asked if he could take me down. His reply was that it wasn't the best time. I left and caught the train home. My other conversation with Rodski that night concerned Evans' request for me to help with the "message". I said to Rodski that I thought they needed to handle it better -- he replied that he thought they were doing a good job. At this stage Liz Lukin was still embedded in the club conducting her particular brand of crisis management.

Of course when I got up the next morning I learnt that Evans had collapsed in the rooms and had stood down as president. I had no ill will towards Evans, and I still don’t -- he was a man stuck in the middle of his loyalties to those within the club, his loyalties to the AFL machine and to managing the Essendon "brand". It mustn’t have been an easy position, and that was clear from the toll it was taking on him.

The story, if it did happen, contained a simple acknowledgement of giving players stuff, and would not by itself imply anything untoward. But if Dank and Robinson’s story is true it would suggest that Evans and the club’s management were aware of what was happening, when it was happening -- not that the players were taking banned substances, but that something was enhancing their performance. It would imply that there was no rogue program, no lack of governance, but a planned program that Evans and the others involved in the club believed was within the rules. That has been my position looking at the evidence, then and now.

w***er.

I think most of us feel that it wasn't rogue scientist style...

Mentions their record keeping is great. Givesno evidence to such....

Basically a book about himself. Great....

 

[STFU Donnie]

Olympic athletes, cyclists, etc, I can understand - those guys are dedicated to the point of living like monks to squeeze every drop of potential out of their bodies. It's easy to reconcile a mindset like that with widespread doping.

Half the players in the AFL don't even have the dedication or self-discipline to stay off the piss and rec drugs during the season. It's just doesn't compute with me that they're driven to the point of running sophisticated (presumably undetectable) doping programs on themselves when they aren't even prepared to make the most basic sacrifices to maximise their natural potential.

Well. what about the 'taking the shortcut' mentality for those who lack the proper discipline?

 

[The 747]

Zyzz was a physco he didn't take a break from roids if a doc perscribes them it's for a maximum period of 3 months for a recovery period, as I said roids are pretty damn harsh but HGH is softer and DHEA is legal and commonly used in America. As for gullibility DHEA gives you great gains and reduces body fat better than any BS pill you buy from the health store. Best to see your doc get it prescribed and get results!

Why are you spruiking DHEA? The research on it is mixed at best.

 

[grassrootsfooty]

Why are you spruiking DHEA? The research on it is mixed at best.

I've used it and it clearly works have you?