Roast Rants, off-topic banter, who ignores who & what Greg Williams' relatives know

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Big Mart said:
I love arguments that change with the landscape...
Click to expand...
What, like your arguments about Stanley?

"I can't stand him!"... "Why did we let him go?!"

... sounds like something out of a teen romance movie.
 
Can you post (since you quote so well) a reference to me saying I can't stand Stanley?

He was an underachieving soft player, with some potential.... He was also our only Fwd/Ruck. We do have 5 ruckmen though!

McEvoy/Stanley

Hickey/Longer
 

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Big Mart said:
Periphery

Which evidence?.... You should reference some to back up your comment...o

Here's a quandary for you.

Good clubs don't lose Great People.....So

Either, Chris is great... But we weren't good enough to keep him.
Or
Chris wasn't that great and the club needed to get rid of him.

Which will you choose..... I'd go with option 2 because the actual evidence suggests we are uncompetitive in the comp.
Click to expand...
This is a meaningless comment. Good clubs and bad clubs lose and gain good and bad people all the time.

Whilst some people have gone a bit overboard on crediting Pelchen you choose to blame him specifically for all the wrongs that a small and financially unstable club goes through after coming off a decade long finals window. It's nonsensical and makes me believe you pay little actual attention to the way clubs run or the nature of how cyclic football can be.

Either that or you purposely troll to simply start arguments and annoy people.
 
Big Mart said:
Periphery

Which evidence?.... You should reference some to back up your comment...o

Here's a quandary for you.

Good clubs don't lose Great People.....So

Either, Chris is great... But we weren't good enough to keep him.
Or
Chris wasn't that great and the club needed to get rid of him.

Which will you choose..... I'd go with option 2 because the actual evidence suggests we are uncompetitive in the comp.
Click to expand...


Geelong - Gary Ablett
Hawthorn - Lance Franklin

Good clubs, both lost all time great players
 
Big Mart said:
Periphery

Which evidence?.... You should reference some to back up your comment...o

Here's a quandary for you.

Good clubs don't lose Great People.....So

Either, Chris is great... But we weren't good enough to keep him.
Or
Chris wasn't that great and the club needed to get rid of him.

Which will you choose..... I'd go with option 2 because the actual evidence suggests we are uncompetitive in the comp.
Click to expand...

The flaw in the logic is that there is no reason to consider the highlighted line to be factual. Its just a line someone made up.
 
Big Mart said:
Can you post (since you quote so well) a reference to me saying I can't stand Stanley?

He was an underachieving soft player, with some potential.... He was also our only Fwd/Ruck. We do have 5 ruckmen though!

McEvoy/Stanley

Hickey/Longer
Click to expand...

I'm trying to work out if this makes no sense after the word ruck or whether I'm stupid.
 
Gary and Lance are great footballers... Are they great people?

The were made offers they couldn't refuse.... Hawthorn had a cap, so couldn't compete. Who has made an offer for CP? And admin has no cap regardless.

Bad examples.


There's a reason he's gone.... Hard to understand?
 
Thepoyz?

Why would I change... The post you highlighted, is about people who do change?... To conform??

One guy even changes his name?

I have conviction... And am not a follower by nature...

Not here to be popular, just to pass comment.... CP is gone... Perhaps, just perhaps I'm not as wrong as apologists make out?
 
Big Mart said:
Gary and Lance are great footballers... Are they great people?

The were made offers they couldn't refuse.... Hawthorn had a cap, so couldn't compete. Who has made an offer for CP? And admin has no cap regardless.

Bad examples.


There's a reason he's gone.... Hard to understand?
Click to expand...

Ahhh so great people don't leave good clubs.

So the act of leaving prevents them from being great.
Or the fact that they left means that the club is not good.
Big Mart gets to choose which.

Yeah got ya :rolleyes:
 
Big Mart said:
Thepoyz?

Why would I change... The post you highlighted, is about people who do change?... To conform??

One guy even changes his name?

I have conviction... And am not a follower by nature...

Not here to be popular, just to pass comment.... CP is gone... Perhaps, just perhaps I'm not as wrong as apologists make out?
Click to expand...

There are many who have agreed with the content of your posts, to some extent, but not in the manner in which you deliver it.
You present yourself as an all-knowing guru who is speaking to idiots who do not have the intellectual capacity to decide things on their own.
You make assumptions about the posters here, you assert opinions as fact and you take offence when anyone calls you on it, never conceding to the truth
You do not concede that others even have a point. You fail in the common courtesies that others adopt, like quoting the poster to whom you are responding

I will give you some credit though, you have at least, started to address the Poster at times. Thank you for that
 
Why can't one be negative? We're hopeless... Is that so hard to believe or admit?!

I for one, am extremely positive... When the situation suits?

BTW
What's the point of a forum... If there is no debate? To me that's just a 'love in' or mutual wankfest

Another point

If things are so great, why are we in our current position?

Please allow free speech on an open forum...

Ps
On Stanley.... His output was inconsistent due to his effort (or lack there of) but he was our only fwd/Ruckman... With obvious upside
Pick 21 was overs for him on ability... But some players are more important to the team than their ability suggest... Kosi was one such player 2008-2011.
 

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Big Mart said:
Why can't one be negative? We're hopeless... Is that so hard to believe or admit?!

I for one, am extremely positive... When the situation suits?

BTW
What's the point of a forum... If there is no debate? To me that's just a 'love in' or mutual wankfest

Another point

If things are so great, why are we in our current position?

Please allow free speech on an open forum...

Ps
On Stanley.... His output was inconsistent due to his effort (or lack there of) but he was our only fwd/Ruckman... With obvious upside
Pick 21 was overs for him on ability... But some players are more important to the team than their ability suggest... Kosi was one such player 2008-2011.
Click to expand...

Because we kept our premiership window open for a massive 6 or so years, but in the end the list was depleted.
If you think Goddard, or DalSanto were going to carry us , I think you are delusional.
So we have bottomed out slighly quicker, but we have rebuilt stronger.
 
I think 99% of us on here understand where we are currently at.

That 99% is also looking at what the club is doing to improve our position, and for the most part, I'd suggest that they are in agreement.

A good, robust debate involves the discussing of ideas and views. It also involves constructive solutions and / or alternative courses of action.

To simply highlight the obvious is not a debate. To deny the events that have led us here is ridiculous. Simply making comments and then not answering when challenged is as far from debating as you can get.

So if we are fairdinkum about having a debate, then let's do it properly. Put up a view, support it with facts, and be magnanimous and acknowledge when the other party makes a legitimate point.

Otherwise it just comes across as some angry ant who is looking to pick a fight for the sake of it.

As an old sales trainer once said to me... Sir, you are either looking for a way in, or you are looking for a way out. You can't be half-pregnant.

Is this place a love fest? Hardly. Yeah so we pretty much agree on most things and what we don't, we usually settle in a mature way.

We had plenty of cyber punch-ups last year. But since when was it wrong to agree with people? Must everything be a confrontation?

Peace out...
 
Big Mart said:
Why can't one be negative? We're hopeless... Is that so hard to believe or admit?!

I for one, am extremely positive... When the situation suits?

BTW
What's the point of a forum... If there is no debate? To me that's just a 'love in' or mutual wankfest

Another point

If things are so great, why are we in our current position?

Please allow free speech on an open forum...

Ps
On Stanley.... His output was inconsistent due to his effort (or lack there of) but he was our only fwd/Ruckman... With obvious upside
Pick 21 was overs for him on ability... But some players are more important to the team than their ability suggest... Kosi was one such player 2008-2011.
Click to expand...
I get where your coming from Big Mart. We have been pretty damn ordinary for a couple of yrs. And questions have to be asked by concerned supporters.
But we cant just forget we came of a pretty damn good 10 yr period ( and we did fall a bees dick away from winning two flags)
But i dont think 2 or 3 crappy years means we go into a total negative criticism of the downfall of our club.
IMO the club is addressing the problems with aggressive trading/drafting and changes off field as well.
Im not saying Billings, Dunstan, Longer , Templeton and such are going to be A-Grade guns but they should develop into very good players. Petracca maybe the best of the lot. Throw in more early picks next yr & drafting some free agency gems to make an instant impact ( like Gehrig/Hammil) in a yr or so and the turn around on & off the field from a rabble to a finals side could be quite quick.
And other clubs have a merry go round of fitness staff / drafting staff etc etc all changing clubs as they are poached by bigger money offers. Or are released to free up money in other departments. So we arent on our pat malone just cos we have changes off field.
Hey, who knows maybe all the kids we draft will end up crap, and the board will make 10 really stupid decisions over the next few yrs and we will plummet into a Fitzroy type debt.????
But hey! ya gotta have some type of hope & faith that the club you support is making the right decisions to turn it around. Or whats the point mate.
Nobody want to go online just to constantly talk about how many f-ups the club has made and how its going to get worse.
If we are still on the bottom in 5 yrs time in the middle of a 10 season bottom out like the Dees had, then this whole Big Footy Saints forum will be people talking about "what we did wrong".
Untill then id rather concentrate on what we are trying to do right.
You dont have to agree. Thats just my opinion.
 
Big Mart said:
Why can't one be negative?
Click to expand...
Everyone has the right to express how they feel, if that be negative then so be it.
My issue isn't the negativity so much as your oppression of those who don't share in your gloom.
You actively chastise posters on here for showing optimism

Big Mart said:
We're hopeless... Is that so hard to believe or admit?!
Click to expand...
You should choose your words more precisely. We are not hopeless. In fact one could argue that all we have is hope.
Our club has dropped in its performance recently and now we have finished last on the ladder.
If our playing list were all 40 yo and we were banned from the draft for the next 50 years, then we might consider that a hopeless state but we are very far from that state of affairs. We have a lot of talented kids on our list. Many have a few years under their belts now.

The way you see it, our list being decimated for the present, I can't speak for everyone but many of us agree with that. We acknowledge that our list was in a state that needed action. There were years which we wasted our draft picks. We remained in contention because of our older generation players. Most of these have retired or been traded away now. The reality is that St Kilda FC cannot cruise for a decade finishing ninth each year waiting to accumulate players like Richmond. The list was in such a state that a continual rebuild like a Geelong was out of the question. We recognised that our rebuild had better be as quick as humanly possible. That is why we are hurting now. We are sacrificing what little we had for now and investing that in the future.
Most of us have accepted that whether for good or no, we are where we are and we are dealing with it.

Most of us find solace in the fact that we are near our lowest point, at the bottom of the J curve and soon things will improve. I cannot guarantee it, but there is plenty of historical evidence to suggest this.

Once we regenerate our list we will set in place a plan that will strive to continually rebuild the list from a base of strength so that we will not suffer the boom and bust cycles we are currently plagued with

Big Mart said:
I for one, am extremely positive
Click to expand...
This is a form of "extremely positive" that I've not previously encountered

Big Mart said:
BTW
What's the point of a forum... If there is no debate? To me that's just a 'love in' or mutual wankfest
Click to expand...
I don't need to tell you what a forum is, but you don't have to take a contrary view in order to discuss an issue.
Your "straw man" argument of "If there is no debate?" is insulting. The place is brimming with debate

Big Mart said:
If things are so great, why are we in our current position?
Click to expand...
Again the false premise "If things are so great" is insulting and childish. Who is saying things are great? What little optimism is shown is not blind. We are aware of where we sit and we are trying to make the best of it. The future holds rewards for all our loyalty, for all our suffering.

You come in here and spit on that, then you wonder why people react to you the way they do.

Big Mart said:
Please allow free speech on an open forum...
Click to expand...
I have a strong desire to include all Saints fans in here. Diversity is a wonderful thing.
There are limits to any freedoms, especially when it impinges on others rights.

To claim the concerns we have with you as a freedom of speech issue suggests either a denial problem or an obfuscation.

Big Mart said:
Ps
On Stanley.... His output was inconsistent due to his effort (or lack there of) but he was our only fwd/Ruckman... With obvious upside
Pick 21 was overs for him on ability... But some players are more important to the team than their ability suggest... Kosi was one such player 2008-2011.
Click to expand...
Finally some talk about footy - agree with you. Except with the lack of effort opinion. I think he tried as hard as anyone.
 
bigmart

I have enjoyed some parts of your posts, and others I have detested.

I think VDS66 and Kildonan have written a far better summation of what's right and what's wrong than I could.

So, you really have a choice, to be the bigmart of old, from saintsational, or a be a better poster by taking in some really sound advice.
 
Kildonan said:
Everyone has the right to express how they feel, if that be negative then so be it.
My issue isn't the negativity so much as your oppression of those who don't share in your gloom.
You actively chastise posters on here for showing optimism


You should choose your words more precisely. We are not hopeless. In fact one could argue that all we have is hope.
Our club has dropped in its performance recently and now we have finished last on the ladder.
If our playing list were all 40 yo and we were banned from the draft for the next 50 years, then we might consider that a hopeless state but we are very far from that state of affairs. We have a lot of talented kids on our list. Many have a few years under their belts now.

The way you see it, our list being decimated for the present, I can't speak for everyone but many of us agree with that. We acknowledge that our list was in a state that needed action. There were years which we wasted our draft picks. We remained in contention because of our older generation players. Most of these have retired or been traded away now. The reality is that St Kilda FC cannot cruise for a decade finishing ninth each year waiting to accumulate players like Richmond. The list was in such a state that a continual rebuild like a Geelong was out of the question. We recognised that our rebuild had better be as quick as humanly possible. That is why we are hurting now. We are sacrificing what little we had for now and investing that in the future.
Most of us have accepted that whether for good or no, we are where we are and we are dealing with it.

Most of us find solace in the fact that we are near our lowest point, at the bottom of the J curve and soon things will improve. I cannot guarantee it, but there is plenty of historical evidence to suggest this.

Once we regenerate our list we will set in place a plan that will strive to continually rebuild the list from a base of strength so that we will not suffer the boom and bust cycles we are currently plagued with


This is a form of "extremely positive" that I've not previously encountered


I don't need to tell you what a forum is, but you don't have to take a contrary view in order to discuss an issue.
Your "straw man" argument of "If there is no debate?" is insulting. The place is brimming with debate


Again the false premise "If things are so great" is insulting and childish. Who is saying things are great? What little optimism is shown is not blind. We are aware of where we sit and we are trying to make the best of it. The future holds rewards for all our loyalty, for all our suffering.

You come in here and spit on that, then you wonder why people react to you the way they do.


I have a strong desire to include all Saints fans in here. Diversity is a wonderful thing.
There are limits to any freedoms, especially when it impinges on others rights.

To claim the concerns we have with you as a freedom of speech issue suggests either a denial problem or an obfuscation.

Finally some talk about footy - agree with you. Except with the lack of effort opinion. I think he tried as hard as anyone.
Click to expand...


Cool, Kildonian vs Big Mart

 
Run, you fools!

I don't want to create an adversarial situation with Big Mart. He could be a valuable contributor to this board despite his rocky start here.
I have contacted him privately and discussed issues with his posting that seem to irk other posters. He is resistant to adopting common courtesies and is blind to the way others are affected by his posts.

I decided to try a more public tack. I know that I wouldn't respond well to the public approach if a moderator was doing this to me, but Big Mart does not seem to respond like most people within the bell curve.
 
Kildonian

Who are you to judge a 'rocky start'? are you that impressed with your own opinion, you think that is right?!

It might have taken you a while to formulate your response... And whilst the bias of your topic will win you fans (not credibility) I will stay true to reality, as I see it...

we are last- uncompetitive, in financial trouble and a long way off... So we are judged on the basis of that... We are in the negative on any measure.... Yet you can't cop negative opinion... A contradiction in terms...

Hopeless at footy, yes we are... Relative to the rest of the comp... A % of under 60 would suggest so.

Your hope for the future is nice... And your comforting words may make yourself or other saints supporters feel better about our current predicament... Certainly win you popularity on a supporter site.... But a bigger bunch of fluff... I have hardly read...

You need to consider validity of honest appraisal...

Me?
Well I cannot pretend we are better than are... Or sit comfortably with less than mediocrity.... Or continually search for silver linings from failure?!
I am only interested actuality and performance...

You have your holier than thou complex, due to you completely biased unwavering support and I'll be a bit more objective... And say it how I see it....

Tell you one thing? I bet you I desire success as much as you... Just hate failure more!!! It seems?

Rocky start... Haha... That's hilarious

Is there a standard of performance? How do you measure that??
Popularity? Number of warnings??
Come on man... We discuss footy... At armchair level
 
Big Mart said:
Kildonian

Who are you to judge a 'rocky start'? are you that impressed with your own opinion, you think that is right?!

It might have taken you a while to formulate your response... And whilst the bias of your topic will win you fans (not credibility) I will stay true to reality, as I see it...

we are last- uncompetitive, in financial trouble and a long way off... So we are judged on the basis of that... We are in the negative on any measure.... Yet you can't cop negative opinion... A contradiction in terms...

Hopeless at footy, yes we are... Relative to the rest of the comp... A % of under 60 would suggest so.

Your hope for the future is nice... And your comforting words may make yourself or other saints supporters feel better about our current predicament... Certainly win you popularity on a supporter site.... But a bigger bunch of fluff... I have hardly read...

You need to consider validity of honest appraisal...

Me?
Well I cannot pretend we are better than are... Or sit comfortably with less than mediocrity.... Or continually search for silver linings from failure?!
I am only interested actuality and performance...

You have your holier than thou complex, due to you completely biased unwavering support and I'll be a bit more objective... And say it how I see it....

Tell you one thing? I bet you I desire success as much as you... Just hate failure more!!! It seems?

Rocky start... Haha... That's hilarious

Is there a standard of performance? How do you measure that??
Popularity? Number of warnings??
Come on man... We discuss footy... At armchair level
Click to expand...

What are your thoughts regarding injury in 2014 and the effect on performance?
 
Big Mart said:
Rocky start... Haha... That's hilarious

Is there a standard of performance? How do you measure that??
Popularity? Number of warnings??
Come on man... We discuss footy... At armchair level
Click to expand...

Mart there's actually a good few of your posts where I pretty much agree with what you are saying. But you seem to have an awkward way of putting it forward.
Not only that, but a tendency to exaggerate something and portray it as a fact without any means of verification, and/or when presented with a stronger counter-argument, or the actual fact which might contradict your view, it's either dismissed or completely ignored.
I have had some unpopular views over the years. One of my first posts I suggested I thought maybe Jack Steven wasn't going to be a lifetime Saint. Last year I suggested there was a fair chance we'd trade Newnes and/or Saunders for a draft pick in 2014/15. Both times I got seriously shot down by the majority, but at no point did it feel like an argument, and my replies and those back to me were generally well-considered posts where examples were given, often back with stats or similar evidence. We don't need to agree but we do as an online community need to get along even if we don't agree.
Just make your points, back them up with whatever your justification is, and acknowledge if someone has a counter-view that might hold near equal merit as yours.

Overall I don't actually have any issue with any of your posts. However what bothers me is your writing style and hard-headedness seems to bring out the worst in others. A couple times recently I've taken a week out of reading the board and sought news/views elsewhere as it became difficult reading.

This board is a lot more argumentative and less informative than it used to be even 12 months ago, and I could put that down to maybe 3 or 4 users. I hope everyone can maybe try and be even 10% more effective in their use of the board, not decry others views so aggressively (or, if you must do, back it with facts) and that way everyone can be on the board together without derailling threads. I don't have the benefit of having fans local to me, or someone to chat footy with at work; this board is more or less my only resource for learning news, hearing others views both Saints and footy in general. I don't want it to become unreadable.
 
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