Rumour Future of the club (Bevo, board, assistant coaches, football department)

[Dog 36]

Panicking 8 games into a 23 game season would be a more ridiculous performance than what we dished up.

It's right. We don't want the club to implode just for the sake of imploding.

Agree with you to an extent.

I see 8 games into a 23 game season a club should not be panicking provided the coach has had the list for may be couple of years and you can see some form of progress.

In this case Bev has had this list in the main for several years now in excess of 3 and still there is no clarity where we are at are we reinventing, re emerging, evolving what is our dna, fingerprint etc

I see it as kicking the can down the road until something drastic happens and forces your hand.

 

[Mojorisin]

Agree with you to an extent.

I see 8 games into a 23 game season a club should not be panicking provided the coach has had the list for may be couple of years and you can see some form of progress.

In this case Bev has had this list in the main for several years now in excess of 3 and still there is no clarity where we are at are we reinventing, re emerging, evolving what is our dna, fingerprint etc

I see it as kicking the can down the road until something drastic happens and forces your hand.

Exactly right, it isn't a case of just the eight rounds of this season. It's the fact that over these eight weeks we have gone no closer to addressing the failing of the last 18 months.

 

[Unnamed1]

I don’t necessarily agree with you, but I appreciate that you’ve shared a rational, dissenting opinion in what often can feel like an echo chamber

Thanks. I worked at a high profile elite Australian sporting organisation for a number of years, and endured a few examples of what we are now going through. I'm not saying that I know better than anyone else here, but it has given me perspective.

1. Well run organisations work through the current situation we are currently experiencing. How we manage it proactively sets the stage of what comes next - whether that is under Bevo, or the next coach. While it looks like a train wreck for us - the margins are quite small and it's never as good, or bad, as it looks on the outside. Our rise from 2014 crapness to 2016 champs is a good example, as well as the troubles experienced this year by Collingwood, Brisbane and to a lesser degree Adelaide.
2. As others have rightly pointed out, Gordon was fully supportive of McCartney, until he wasn't. I think they probably always knew McCartney wasn't working out (they would have had enough player feedback from senior players in Murphy, Boyd, Minson) and that Griffen wanted out, well before that happened. I can't subscribe to the view that the Tom Boyd trade was opportunistic only.
3. What happens inside the walls is often starkly different to what the external public sees. Ultimately, there are only so many people with a limited number of hours in the day to get through what they need to, whether that be player conditioning, player recuperation & review (Sunday/Monday), gameday preparation (Tuesday, Thursday, Friday) and a day off (Wednesday).
4. I do know that Sam Power and Ameet Bains are both incredibly smart, savvy operators. Both trained at top tier law firms, both worked in industry before joining us. KWW is an experienced executive that has dealt with far bigger crises. There will be an existing plan, with different contingencies, targets and triggers, that they will be working towards. I think that's obvious within what KWW said today. It would have been proposed by Bains and agreed on at Board level following the Jackson review. It would have also had guidelines on public comms, and almost certainly involving not having any public comms early in the year on "rebuilding" to ensure we didn't have a drop in revenue or sponsorship interest in the early stage of the season.
5. In that regard, the Buckley resignation/tap on Queen's Bday weekend should be a guide for Dogs supporters of how Boards consider things. In that instance, it was announced on 9 June, about halfway through the season. For the Pies, they had won only 3 games at that halfway point. If we are also 3 wins in by then, I imagine there will be a similar mood for us as the triggers in the current strategy will be more likely or not being reached with the actual data on W/L ratio. In the alternative, we should also review McCartney being fired post-season as another alternative view.
6. The Board's strategy will absolutely be responsive to alternative solutions to Bevo. Right now, there isn't anything obvious. They will be loathed to dump a lot of development on a new, unproven coach (unless it's Cameron or Buckley) - we are better off having Bevo cop heat while blooding young players (like he is), rather than suffer what happened to someone like Rhyce Shaw.
7. Adam Simpson now, Hardwick 2016 and others are also a relevant factors weighing in favour of a responsible board retaining Bevo. Countering this is the Pies post Buckley.
8. I hope the Board is providing proper pastoral care to Bevo. The current scrutiny will be taking a huge personal toll on him, I'm sure he isn't sleeping and is second guessing himself in all aspects. He will be a shadow of his true self until there is a bit more stability. We need to minimise this, as it will flow on to all around him. The same goes for our core, senior players. Libba being bashed up like he is couldn't be worse timing as he's a culture warrior for our club.

 

[MrChristo]

fire Bevo by all means, he may well be past his use by date. But we are not winning anything with the list in the shape it is.

Way too many players who are either past it or not up to it.

I don't disagree, but the [seeming] lack of game-plan, strategy, playing style etc, can't be totally down to the playing list.

I'll look up some numbers later on, but I suspect something changed (either by design or not) early 2021.

We went from a hugely proficient defensive unit to, well, not!
From mid-2015 to early 2021 we were incredibly difficult to beat once we got un front and in control.
It didn't matter if we scored 15 goals or 5, the opp was scoring less.

We now set up as if we're a high scoring side, prepared to win shoot-outs that we simply cannot.
As far a I can see our plan seems to be give the ball to the half back of choice, let them run ("break a line", which isn't really a thing any more), and bomb it long to a bunch of stagnant big guys.

At one point in the second quarter we were described by one of the commentators as a "short kicking, possession team"... If only!!

(Almost comically, as soon as it was mentioned we chipped it wide to a free player about 60 out who, of course, bombed it high and without a lot of thought.

As others have said, it's not only horrible to watch, but it possibly the least interested I've ever been in watching us play.
It's predictable, and it's painful.

 

[ScragCity]

Most depressed I’ve been since 2014.
Footy sucks when your team stinks.

I could handle having the team suck if they were at least young and showing some potential for the next few years. When you consider the age of our list and that we are probably on a downward trajectory, and that our next few seasons will be as bad or worse than this one... well that is depressing.

 

[Snarls Barkley]

Perhaps a forwards coach that played their career as a forward could address the problems i50?

I don't think there has to be a correlation between being a good footballer player and a good coach.

Nick Riewoldt said that Adam Kingsley (who played the majority of his career at half back or midfield) taught him more about forward craft than any other coach he has had. Now he might have just been being nice because his mate got hired as a senior coach but high praise regardless.

Problem more than anything was that Spangher just got promoted above his jurisdiction far too early. He really should have been moved back to a development role this season and someone more experienced bought in but we were stingy again.

 

[MrChristo]

I think we have to give Bevo some credit here. Simpson has not just underdelivered post flag - he’s turned them into Fitzroy. They’re in different universes at the moment.

And I still wouldn’t be surprised to see Simpson get another gig.

Totally get what you're saying, and yet...

...they beat us last year, and they've beaten Freo this year, so...

 

[Anja_Nees]

Totally get what you're saying, and yet...

...they beat us last year, and they've beaten Freo this year, so...

We won four times as many games as them with double the percentage last year. I know they beat us but upsets happen all year.

No one can seriously say they would swap out 2022/2023 with theirs. No matter how irritating it has been try to imagine winning five games in two whole years.

 

[MrChristo]

Various comments here about our forwards line - I think you'll see our scoring is up this year. Our backline and defensive midfield work around the stoppage and transition, however, is an absolute and complete horror show.

That stems in very large part from lack of forward system/ cohesion.
Only North, WC, Richmond and Freo (interestingly) allow more defensive 50 rebounds/exits than we do.
We're often so out of shape trying to get a decent I50 entry that the opposition waltz it the length.

 

[Unnamed1]

Re WCE and how it's relevant to us. Simpson inherited that list, and took them to a flag. They held on for too long (shared culpability with the high performance team as Head Coach is an input only), holding blokes like NicNat on the list for one year too many, and then completely bottomed out.

The fact WCE have bounced back this year is because they have put a body of work into very young, inexperienced and inconsistent players. WCE at home will be a big problem from 2025 until 2035, and are closer to a flag than Freo.

Their Board knew that, and instead of sacking Simpson like everyone internal and external demanded, they backed him and sent him on a holiday post season to relax, and refresh. I'd say they're odds on for getting a positive dividend from that investment in Simpson.

To me that's our blueprint. Except swap in Bevo has had two tilts, one in 2016, and one in 2021. We are currently building for 2026, and when you look at it that way (which is I suspect where they're targeting internally), we can either eat one of our own right now and choose some other bloke, or we can invest in one of our own, who has a decade of experience with these players that will hopefully take us there in 2026.

 

[Snarls Barkley]

We won four times as many games as them with double the percentage last year. I know they beat us but upsets happen all year.

No one can seriously say they would swap out 2022/2023 with theirs. No matter how irritating it has been try to imagine winning five games in two whole years.

No one would swap situations but there is certainly an argument that we underperformed just as badly in that time period.

No one expected them to do anything in that period, they were past there prime years and all there good players bar Kelly were injured for over 50% of the games. They should've been better than 4 wins and a percentage in the mid 50s but they were not a finals standard team. The main reason they look slightly better this year is that guys like McGovern and Yeo have been able to stay on the park.

For us to be the second best team in 2021, have a sizeable lead in that final, and have the list in close to pristine state, to not even give a yelp in the following two seasons has been a massive failure. The only reason we made the finals in 2022 was because of a massive Carlton choke and then we embarrassed ourselves the next week anyway

 

[yebach]

Re WCE and how it's relevant to us. Simpson inherited that list, and took them to a flag. They held on for too long (shared culpability with the high performance team as Head Coach is an input only), holding blokes like NicNat on the list for one year too many, and then completely bottomed out.

The fact WCE have bounced back this year is because they have put a body of work into very young, inexperienced and inconsistent players. WCE at home will be a big problem from 2025 until 2035, and are closer to a flag than Freo.

Their Board knew that, and instead of sacking Simpson like everyone internal and external demanded, they backed him and sent him on a holiday post season to relax, and refresh. I'd say they're odds on for getting a positive dividend from that investment in Simpson.

To me that's our blueprint. Except swap in Bevo has had two tilts, one in 2016, and one in 2021. We are currently building for 2026, and when you look at it that way (which is I suspect where they're targeting internally), we can either eat one of our own right now and choose some other bloke, or we can invest in one of our own, who has a decade of experience with these players that will hopefully take us there in 2026.

Bounced back have they?

The only reason Simpson kept his job is injuries as an excuse and his salary.

Do you reckon he'd get a gig anywhere else?

You want us to copy what one of the most unsuccessful teams of the last 5 years has done?

 

[threenewpadlocks]

No one would swap situations but there is certainly an argument that we underperformed just as badly in that time period.

No one expected them to do anything in that period, they were past there prime years and all there good players bar Kelly were injured for over 50% of the games. They should've been better than 4 wins and a percentage in the mid 50s but they were not a finals standard team. The main reason they look slightly better this year is that guys like McGovern and Yeo have been able to stay on the park.

For us to be the second best team in 2021, have a sizeable lead in that final, and have the list in close to pristine state, to not even give a yelp in the following two seasons has been a massive failure. The only reason we made the finals in 2022 was because of a massive Carlton choke and then we embarrassed ourselves the next week anyway

And I still expect us to finish higher than them this year, next year and the year after.

Of course the loss to Hawthorn is painful. We don't have to make ridiculous claims such as that West Coast, as it stands right now, are in a better position than us.

 

[ScragCity]

The stupidest thing Bains has done is admitting that he thinks we have a top-four list. Makes it impossible to cling to some fantasy that the club know what they're doing and are building towards some successful future state. Everyone at the club thought our time was now.

 

[Dog 36]

And I still expect us to finish higher than them this year, next year and the year after.

Of course the loss to Hawthorn is painful. We don't have to make ridiculous claims such as that West Coast, as it stands right now, are in a better position than us.

In a way they are in a better position than us

They know exactly where they are at and they are playing younger players, getting a style of play they want to play and recruiting accordingly.

On the other hand we are evolving, re-emerging, reinventing and were supposed to make Marvel a slaughter house.

Confusion reigns at the Kennel

 

[geoffjennings79]

It's not Bevo, it's not the players, it's... the umpires?!

 

[threenewpadlocks]

In a way they are in a better position than us

They know exactly where they are at and they are playing younger players, getting a style of play they want to play and recruiting accordingly.

On the other hand we are evolving, re-emerging, reinventing and were supposed to make Marvel a slaughter house.

Confusion reigns at the Kennel

Yes, they know where they are at.

They know that are at a worse position than us.

Keep in mind that their best player this season - and a fair chunk of their slight improvement in form - is a bloke who just got injured again after he just managed to string together a month and a half of footy for the first time in four seasons.

 

[cleveland]

Simpsons have done it again

 

[adammonerz]

Even Kane Cornes couldn't be bothered going in on us as hard as he usually does this morning. Pretty much said he knows the club will do nothing about the loss and Bevo will coach out the season.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

It's almost as if people are taking the footy 'meme' that it is better to be young than good, and it doesn't matter if you're bad, if you're young, to be literal.

Bad players are still bad players if they're young. And young players in our team shouldn't be the ones absent of criticism if they're bad. We also just can't assume that literally every young player will follow and improvement aging curve.

I'd much rather have an older team from the base that's recently made finals and still could make finals than a young team that's bad, because people have wildly unrealistic and unjustified assumptions of the expectation that a bad, young team can get better in the future by virtue of getting older.

 

[Anja_Nees]

The stupidest thing Bains has done is admitting that he thinks we have a top-four list. Makes it impossible to cling to some fantasy that the club know what they're doing and are building towards some successful future state. Everyone at the club thought our time was now.

Absolutely ridiculous thing to say, particularly midseason. Puts a target on the coach’s back if it doesn’t materialise and if it’s correct everyone forgets it anyway.

I was getting a little concerned around about how many older players we had recruited in a short period (ie Duryea, Lloyd, Hannan, Bruce, Treloar, Keath, Martin, O’Brien) and how that might skew our age profile. It always seemed likely we’d need to rejuvenate a bit, particularly with Macrae, Libba etc getting older too.

I think if they’d sold that a bit earlier it would have helped. Of course, reliably imploding against bottom four sides is another issue.

 

[Fossie 32]

It's almost as if people are taking the footy 'meme' that it is better to be young than good, and it doesn't matter if you're bad, if you're young, to be literal.

Bad players are still bad players if they're young. And young players in our team shouldn't be the ones absent of criticism if they're bad. We also just can't assume that literally every young player will follow and improvement aging curve.

I'd much rather have an older team from the base that's recently made finals and still could make finals than a young team that's bad, because people have wildly unrealistic and unjustified assumptions of the expectation that a bad, young team can get better in the future by virtue of getting older.

 

[Next Waiting]

The stupidest thing Bains has done is admitting that he thinks we have a top-four list. Makes it impossible to cling to some fantasy that the club know what they're doing and are building towards some successful future state. Everyone at the club thought our time was now.

There's no delusion like self delusion. We had it in the club exec ranks in 2011 also.

 

[adammonerz]

Might go down to WO and hand in my resume, seems like any spud gets a go at coaching down there and I mean I'm about as qualified as Spahnger so worth a shot

 

[threenewpadlocks]

The stupidest thing Bains has done is admitting that he thinks we have a top-four list. Makes it impossible to cling to some fantasy that the club know what they're doing and are building towards some successful future state. Everyone at the club thought our time was now.

In some fairness, we have to admit it's been driven by fan demands, whom many (especially some on this board) have taken a long-term winning record to be some sort of default, expected state, or that even just to win more games than you lose, it's a hard slog that indicates doing more things right than wrong, especially with the structural disadvantages we have as a small club.

Bains might have said that but it also appeased a lot of fans, who were agreeing with that sentiment, that because we managed to win a flag once (with significant contributions from players who were no longer at the club soon after), that being near to it is somehow the expectation into the future.

Over the past year or two I'm genuinely surprised at the selective amnesia by Dogs fans. The possibility (and indeed probability) that we fall into some sort of purgatory with the likes of Rhode, Hart etc. as our coach is not unrealistic at all.