Bluemour Discussion Thread XIV - Facts Not Welcome

[footyfan1978]

So what? Speed is overrated in some ways - we need extractors and contested ball winners as well to help and add depth to the Cripps', Kennedy's, Curnow's etc.

It's not like we don't have speed around the ball and further afield with the likes of Fisher, Dow, SPS, Cunningham, Pickett, Garlett, Charlie, McGovern, Fasolo, Polson, Murphy, Lang, Byrne, O' Brien, Docherty, Simpson, Williamson etc etc.

Shiel certainly wasn't lighting quick either.

Tyson was in and out of Melbourne side all year and shit when it came to prelim final. He was never what we needed right now. His age is in right bracket, yes, his ability to help us in way we need, not!!!

He is a back up player and nothing more on what he should in a season he should be in his prime.

 

[Arr0w]

As others have stated, having a fit list and the natural improvement of our kids may be enough this year.

Fit Kennedy, murph and even kreuzer...possibly Lang and cuningham as well. Sps looked a bit underdone and Fisher is on an upward trajectory (also got injured). So many injuries.

Getting them fit will help Cripps a lot.

We are adding Walsh and setterfield...not immediate help but future stars.

Trade period not over, could still get a libba/barlow type if we really wanted, doubt it though.

A grader next year.

Agree, but I will touch on Libba/Barlow later

At the risk of sounding like a cracked piece of vinyl what about Libba.

Why: because we may be able to (still not re-signed yet I believe)

How: Free hit through FA.

Ticks boxes, but what about the no d1ckheads policy? We talk about culture, then we get desperate, because we want immediate wins. Barlow would be great too, but why would we play him, infront of a Kennedy?

If we want a strong body, that has come from a great system, is in the age range we want, then Jordon Foote as a DFA on the rookie list makes more sense

I don't think people fully comprehend how difficult it is to aquire quality in that age bracket. That is prime performing age. Clubs, and particularly coaches , are loathe to let them go from their club. And players in that peak age range aren't exactly turned on by coming to 2 win teams.

We were left with a massive hole in that age range from our last disastrous administration and it was always going to be the hardest part to address in the short term. We may in all reality have to wait for our own to mature into their prime.

We targeted an A Grader in Shiel, a potential A Grader in Gov and a speculative FA in Fasolo. Smart targeting.

We didn't get the dream result, but landing Gov is great work.

Sitting where we were in 2015, list and club wise, i'm rapt with what we have set up going forward. And admiring of the effort of holding everyone this year, let alone attracting Gov and Setterfield.

Agree, think we have done well to date

 

[SkyhorseTamer]

It’s not always about what’s fair. It is what is market price. We paid a lot more than any other club would have. McGovern was clearly not going to stay with Crows and Crows didn’t want him. So Next Best Offer is the best evaluation of the trade. We paid a LOT more than next best offer. Ideally you want to pay the bare minimum over that.

We heard several rumours of the trade being a second plus McAdam. That would have been market price and still better than next best offer.


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I’m sorry. I have to call you on this. You have absolutely no idea what the next best offer was because there wasn’t another offer. McGovern wanted Carlton so the deal is between Adelaide and Carlton ‘market price’ is an irrelevant concept that is unknowable and hence any conclusions based on it are questionable at best.

 

[I bleed Blue]

Given we were prepared to forgo the two second rounders, why did Shane McAdam need to be thrown in? We sure could have used his type.

Two second rounders should have got it done by themselves.

Two second rounders for McGovern is fine. If we took them both to the draft and one of them became as good as McGovern we would be happy.


McAdam. It was the Crows who wanted him. Not us. They would have picked him up as a third round pick anyway. All sos basically did was turn the compo pick into a normal pick. We can still use it to get a mature age player or we can take a kid in that draft. Doesn't pidgeon hole us.



McAdam isn't exactly Robbie Grey or Eddie betts. There are dozens of blokes running around state leagues and local leagues as good as McAdam... in fact probably one on the northern blues list.

 

[blue healer]

With all respect BH I will have to disagree. I like our list balance. It's nowhere near finished but its' pretty good.

2 wins means nothing to me. We are extremely young and had the worst injury list in the AFL. A mostly fit list with some good additions and I see a much improved side.

If we get near our best 22 on the park each week its a very good side. IMO we just need to add to depth and a few role players and I expect huge improvement over the next 2-3 years

It's OK Soap I just like to ride a good bandwagon.

 

[slashin_velvet]

100% agree. If you look at the Gibbs and Mcgovern deal as one transaction, we are absolutely bloody laughing.
Saw this on twitter, which shows the two trades in their totality (note: This is a bit confusing. I haven't looked into the accuracy - someone far more knowledgable than me could probably confirm):

The top pick from adelaide says it became pick 21 which is wrong and an arrow needs to go from that pick to Mitch McGovern

But in summary, Gibbs, Sam Gibson, McAdam and pick 21 became LOB, McGov, Kennedy, TDK, Schumacher and we upgraded a 2019 round 5 to round 3 pick

 

[DangerousD]

I know they didn’t do anything wrong, but I think the AFL needs to look into this. If it’s backended as you say, it’s also unfair on the players & cheaper for GWS.

My contract averages 1 million over 3 years
Year 1 $750,000
Year 2 $750,000
Year 3 $1.5 million

Now end of year 2 I’m told “go shop yourself” every club is gonna give me a new contract, just to keep it simple say 1 million

Now at a new club I get
year 3 $1 million
Year 4 $1 million

I’ve lost $500,000 over the 3 years, all because the club knowingly was over the cap in year 3 with the plan to ship me off.

Not sure if mentionvked, but players can’t lose out, if your contract says you are to receive X amount, then that’s what you get. Whether it’s at one club or another.

 

[Magruder]

We essentially traded 26 and 28 for mcgovern.
It's not like he threw everything away for him.
As much as it would be lovely its not fantasy land where you make a myriad of trades and bring in 5 shiny new players at the trade table.
Most teams bring in 1-2 guys max because thats all draft assets will allow for without mortgaging the future.

Agree with this.

Another way of looking at it would be to consider it in the context of the Gibbs trade from last year.

Considered within a prism of perdurantism we effectively traded Gibbs, 2017 2nd and 2018 AFL “assistance” for Kennedy, O’bien and McGovern.

Not bad at all

 

[Bamboo Harvester]

I wonder if we were using it on young players whether the AFL would allow us an exception. The essence of the rule is to stop teams selling the farm for older players.

Maybe we send in Bolton and Russell to ask......and if the HQ thinks they still work at Hawthorn the AFL will just give us approval?

By memory, I believe that you need to get permission from the AFL to trade more than one future pick....which means we have no chance.

Collingwood traded its future first round pick in 2015 as part of the Treloar deal, and their future second rounder as part of the Aish deal.

 

[DangerousD]

Wtf have Hawthorn done for us since the JOM pick swap?

Russel

 

[harrisendblue]

So EP basically confirming what most of us thought after the McGovern trade; SOS traded away all our currency for one player.
Great

Ah CM you never disappoint and oh so very predictable.

 

[SandgroperBlue]

The top pick from adelaide says it became pick 21 which is wrong and an arrow needs to go from that pick to Mitch McGovern

But in summary, Gibbs, Sam Gibson, McAdam and pick 21 became LOB, McGov, Kennedy, TDK, Schumacher and we upgraded a 2019 round 5 to round 3 pick

Cheers for the edit!

 

[Magruder]

SandgroperBlue just said this

Made my point

 

[The Bighouse]

Agree, but I will touch on Libba/Barlow later

Just on Libba, doesn’t the FA window expire soon, like today or Monday?

 

[reubsblues]

BREAKING NEWS
Hawthorne football club will be starting a
Masters team from 2019

 

[Bluey24]

Ok. Let’s be clear. I don’t know all the ins and outs of who recruiters are talking to. I hear things, and I share. I’m like a Big Footy Tyrion who drinks and knows things

Some things for people to bear in mind - Wingard and Scrimshaw - I’m not sure we’d want them at our club. Not optimal blokes

Scully - interesting but mega risky from an injury standpoint. Good player

Tyson - not the type of midfielder you’d add to a Cripps / Kennedy midfield

But here is the single biggest thing and people need to be realistic about this - we do not have much to trade. We won’t deal pick one. We’ve dealt our seconds. We have 42 now - big deal. We’d rather not trade our first next year. We will need our second next year (at least) for Setterfield. Our tradeable players have no trade currency. Stop believing all the bullshit about that. Nobody wants Casboult. Nobody wants Jones. Nobody is giving us anything decent for them. If anything at all. So how are we getting all these other players? I’ll tell you how - we’re not

EP, nice and direct - how I like it

Smell any smoke regarding the rumour 'trade Pick 1 + next year's first, for GC's Picks 2 & 3'?

 

[HARKER]

So what? Speed is overrated in some ways - we need extractors and contested ball winners as well to help and add depth to the Cripps', Kennedy's, Curnow's etc.

It's not like we don't have speed around the ball and further afield with the likes of Fisher, Dow, SPS, Cunningham, Pickett, Garlett, Charlie, McGovern, Fasolo, Polson, Murphy, Lang, Byrne, O' Brien, Docherty, Simpson, Williamson etc etc.

Shiel certainly wasn't lighting quick either.

What about Dow in his second year? What about Setterfield in his third year in the AFL system?

We could have done with Shiel, but now the baton gets handed over to the younger guys. They can handle it, from what I see.

 

[Nori]

So EP basically confirming what most of us thought after the McGovern trade; SOS traded away all our currency for one player.
Great

He knew what the cost would be and planned for it.

You complain about SOS for not getting mature players in and then you complain about the price when he does. Cheer up!

 

[therubbernub]

I hope you are right. I was down Kardinia Park when ball come to him on wing by himself to mark, he punched it out of bounce for no logical reason. Not first time he does something without thinking at all. I am not convinced headless chook has anything to do with all the rest of a fitness guru... Furthermore what are we doing with Macreadie, Marchbank, Plowman and Weiteting in backline?
We cannot play such a tall backline and expect to stop smalls running riot. nah, list balance should say move him on and make use of these guys and McGovern if needs be. Right now we actually got a surplus of tall backs and forwards on list and not enough small goal kicking forwards or mids. I wanted him traded if at all possible. Same with Casboult. I do not have high hopes of this especially with Eric, highlighted that too , but right now too many talls, not enough smalls.

My reference to Russell was that he will get his fellow defenders on the park and playing along side him instead of Mullet, Shaw and O'shea etc and that will enable him to return to play his original game- instead of what we saw in 2018.

As far as the tallness of our backline, I didnt include Macreadie in that and Plowman can play tall or short, so really we are talking about 3 talls not 5

 

[The Bighouse]

Not sure if mentionvked, but players can’t lose out, if your contract says you are to receive X amount, then that’s what you get. Whether it’s at one club or another.

Apparently not. I was always of the opinion that everything carried over but now it’s a new contract drawn up for dollars & length of tenure.

 

[blue healer]

Agree with this.

Another way of looking at it would be to consider it in the context of the Gibbs trade from last year.

Considered within a prism of perdurantism we effectively traded Gibbs, 2017 2nd and 2018 AFL “assistance” for Kennedy, O’bien and McGovern.

Not bad at all

Not afraid to say Ii had to look that up and not afraid to say further that it confused me.

 

[Bluey24]

I thought you were going to claim his prowes in the bedroom.

He knew what the cost would be and planned for it.

You complain about SOS for not getting mature players in and then you complain about the price when he does. Cheer up!

Haha what?

 

[Arr0w]

Just on Libba, doesn’t the FA window expire soon, like today or Monday?

Today.

But if they don't re-sign with their clubs, you can add them as DFA

 

[HARKER]

Yep. I love a good op-shop Harks, but occasionally I need to step it up to Trade Secret.
I think people just assume that complex three way trades involving salary dumps are just the norm given the last couple of years, all of which was driven by necessity.
I'd like to think we've progressed to the specific need phase of the rebuild.

Now that sounds like a plan to me.

The 'youngsters' need to grow up this off-season and take on larger responsibilities. The green shoots will have to have sprouted.

 

[VeinGlorious]

Hi. Thought I’d just pop back in to calm the farm. Reliably informed that Setterfield will get done and won’t involve our future first

Awesome, the farm most certainly needed calming. Great stuff EP, cheers


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