Did Reid, Evans, Hird and Robson live on separate continents in 2012?

[mxett]

If he had concerns, why not address them in person, demand to be heard?

His role as a doctor means his number one duty is the health and wellbeing of the players. By STFU and letting practices continue which he had concerns about, he was effectively endorsing these practices.

Quit, scream from the mountain tops, do something - meekly shutting up helps no-one

Ah you shouldn't say this. I was roundly criticised for suggesting pretty much exactly the same thing. The baying mob want Hirds head and implicating Reid potentially lessens Hirds guilt

 

[DrEvil]

Sounds like Essendon are building a case AFTER the fact. The fact Dr Reid's letter remained unanswered (apparently due to non delivery) and that it was never followed up reeks of convenience in that the blame is being directed towards incompetence and may have then lead to the Ziggy report sham which confirmed this problem of incompetent governance.

Essendon appear to be hiding the truth by surrounding it with layers of bullshit and furphies.

LOL non-delivery... guess he shouldn't have used reply paid? LOL at the excuses from Essendon.

 

[Higgs Boson]

I don't want to encourage you, but that gave me a good chuckle.

Nice paralipsis

 

[r_boy]

Ah you shouldn't say this. I was roundly criticised for suggesting pretty much exactly the same thing. The baying mob want Hirds head and implicating Reid potentially lessens Hirds guilt

I don't disagree that if all Reid did was write a letter then do nothing, then that's not good enough.

Having said that, it doesn't make him complicit in drug cheating, and it certainly makes him look a lot more competent than pretty much everyone else at Essendon.

Your argument is that the doctor is responsible for everything and Hird et al are responsible for nothing. Disgraceful attitude.

 

[mxett]

I don't disagree that if all Reid did was write a letter then do nothing, then that's not good enough.

Having said that, it doesn't make him complicit in drug cheating, and it certainly makes him look a lot more competent than pretty much everyone else at Essendon.

Your argument is that the doctor is responsible for everything and Hird et al are responsible for nothing. Disgraceful attitude.

No, not quite. If Reid was bypassed the person responsible should go, and if that's Hird so be it. But that isn't consistent with the leaked email where Reid was anointed the stop end. Frankly I don't care who it is. It was potentially a massive fail and the culprit should pay. That's unless word coming out of the club that they did indeed discuss AODs use with ASADA is actually true.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

Ah you shouldn't say this. I was roundly criticised for suggesting pretty much exactly the same thing. The baying mob want Hirds head and implicating Reid potentially lessens Hirds guilt

This is where you and I disagree though, any failings by Reid don't lessen the guilt for anyone else.

Hird knew compliance for PED's was any issue (he wrote an email on it), yet he failed to follow up and make sure his directive was followed.

Robson oversaw a footy dept with no clear lines of responsibility and power plays

Hamilton and Corcoran failed to control the influence of the sports science guys under their control

Plenty of blame to go around, and this is assuming none knew the details of Danks dodgy distribution network

Reid not following through isn't a get out of jail free card for anyone

 

[blackshadow]

This is where you and I disagree though, any failings by Reid don't lessen the guilt for anyone else.

Hird knew compliance for PED's was any issue (he wrote an email on it), yet he failed to follow up and make sure his directive was followed.

Robson oversaw a footy dept with no clear lines of responsibility and power plays

Hamilton and Corcoran failed to control the influence of the sports science guys under their control

Plenty of blame to go around, and this is assuming none knew the details of Danks dodgy distribution network

Reid not following through isn't a get out of jail free card for anyone

100% correct.

 

[CroZwell]

Ah you shouldn't say this. I was roundly criticised for suggesting pretty much exactly the same thing. The baying mob want Hirds head and implicating Reid potentially lessens Hirds guilt

Its not personal - Are you saying that the administering of substances off site with legal waivers involved is someone else's responsibility? And that the head coach, CEO, President, Football Manager etc are not really responsible for anything?

The only way out of this is for the players to have been hypnotised and injected with substances without their knowledge

 

[mxett]

Its not personal - Are you saying that the administering of substances off site with legal waivers involved is someone else's responsibility? And that the head coach, CEO, President, Football Manager etc are not really responsible for anything?

The only way out of this is for the players to have been hypnotised and injected with substances without their knowledge

No, I think responsibilities weren't properly defined. It seems no one knew who was responsible for keeping the sports science department in check. A whole range of people are probably to blame for this including Evans, Robeson, Hamilton Hird and Reid. Do you fire them all or learn from the mistake and improve the structure?

 

[CroZwell]

No, I think responsibilities weren't properly defined. It seems no one knew who was responsible for keeping the sports science department in check. A whole range of people are probably to blame for this including Evans, Robeson, Hamilton Hird and Reid. Do you fire them all or learn from the mistake and improve the structure?

Not really an excuse now is it?

Is there any excuse for the players to NOT ring the hotline number, or even contact their managers or the AFLPA?

Seems like the general public can uncover almost anything about AOD 9604 and Thymosin

And yet NOT a single person at the EFC could check??

Is that what you are saying?

Its strange that the club seemed to put in a lot of energy into coming up with off site injection rooms at Botox clinics and waiver forms for the players to sign. Plenty of responsibility there!

Do you know why some players refused to partake in the program?

Are they still at the club?

 

[mxett]

This is where you and I disagree though, any failings by Reid don't lessen the guilt for anyone else.

Hird knew compliance for PED's was any issue (he wrote an email on it), yet he failed to follow up and make sure his directive was followed.

Robson oversaw a footy dept with no clear lines of responsibility and power plays

Hamilton and Corcoran failed to control the influence of the sports science guys under their control

Plenty of blame to go around, and this is assuming none knew the details of Danks dodgy distribution network

Reid not following through isn't a get out of jail free card for anyone

I'd say Hird knew it was a risk and defined parameters, but it appears no one knew who was responsible for ensuring these conditions were put into practice. No doubt a failing of many, but as I've said, Hird isn't medically or pharmacologically trained so he relies on others who are experts in these areas.

 

[sherb]

Not really an excuse now is it?

Is there any excuse for the players to NOT ring the hotline number, or even contact their managers or the AFLPA?

Seems like the general public can uncover almost anything about AOD 9604 and Thymosin

And yet NOT a single person at the EFC could check??

Is that what you are saying?

They clearly need Google Detective training down at Bomberland.

 

[sherb]

No, I think responsibilities weren't properly defined. It seems no one knew who was responsible for keeping the sports science department in check. A whole range of people are probably to blame for this including Evans, Robeson, Hamilton Hird and Reid. Do you fire them all or learn from the mistake and improve the structure?

Depends on whether you want to keep incompetents running your football club or not.

 

[mxett]

Not really an excuse now is it?

Is there any excuse for the players to NOT ring the hotline number, or even contact their managers or the AFLPA?

Seems like the general public can uncover almost anything about AOD 9604 and Thymosin

And yet NOT a single person at the EFC could check??

Is that what you are saying?

I dare say info on AOD wasn't as forthcoming last year. Not sure you can say much about thymosin yet since we still don't know which form was used.

I agree though, the players needed to contact ASADA themselves not just trust the club. But to suggest essendon are the only club where players rely on the doctors advice would be naive.

 

[Ron The Bear]

I'd say Hird knew it was a risk and defined parameters, but it appears no one knew who was responsible for ensuring these conditions were put into practice. No doubt a failing of many, but as I've said, Hird isn't medically or pharmacologically trained so he relies on others who are experts in these areas.

The drugs were important enough to justify an expenditure of hundreds of thousands of dollars, but nobody thought to check whether they were legal. An amazing oversight. Unbelievable. Preposterous.

No sale.

 

[mxett]

Depends on whether you want to keep incompetents running your football club or not.

I think it was the football department structure more than individuals. The person responsible for the football department overall would probably be under the pump the most I suppose.

 

[mxett]

The drugs were important enough to justify an expenditure of hundreds of thousands of dollars, but nobody thought to check whether they were legal. An amazing oversight. Unbelievable. Preposterous.

No sale.

Who said no one checked they were compliant? Hird specifically demanded this be done by Reid. News coming out of essendon today suggest they did contact ASADA.

 

[Ron The Bear]

Who said no one checked they were compliant? Hird specifically demanded this be done by Reid. News coming out of essendon today suggest they did contact ASADA.

So Essendon have written approval from ASADA to use all the substances the players and coaches were injected with? Let's see it, then. And ask the Doc to answer a few questions while you're at it.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

I'd say Hird knew it was a risk and defined parameters, but it appears no one knew who was responsible for ensuring these conditions were put into practice. No doubt a failing of many, but as I've said, Hird isn't medically or pharmacologically trained so he relies on others who are experts in these areas.

The problem with that though is the Ziggy report made it clear Hird did no follow up, not that he did and was misled.

In my own experience with compliance, I had to

- write a 140 page manual for our company and submit to my boss for sign off
- prepare individual job files for everything we did, with each file containing every piece of paper relevant to each project, which he would randomly review
- have periodic meetings with him during which I updated him on the status of all projects
- for all projects to proceed, they had to have a final approval by all mangers, including myself, and my boss being one of these would often drag me into his office to query my approval if he knew it had preexisting concerns

See the key difference here? One wrote an email, and walked away. The other wrote an email, but reviewed examined and queried the PIC to ensure they were doing the brief given to them.

Failing to monitor and review a subordinates work is a major management failing. Hird (amongst many at efc) was guilty of this imo

 

[CroZwell]

I dare say info on AOD wasn't as forthcoming last year. Not sure you can say much about thymosin yet since we still don't know which form was used.

You're kidding right??

I just carried out a literature search in peer reviewed scientific journals and it didn't take long to find an article on AD 9604 published in the Endocrinology journal.

The important thing to note is the publishing date - 2001 - I believe that the bombers may have been playing a grand final at that time - do you remember (also note the lead author Mark Heffernan - very apt don't you think?)

The Effects of Human GH and Its Lipolytic Fragment (AOD9604) on Lipid Metabolism Following Chronic Treatment in Obese Mice andβ 3-AR Knock-Out Mice

1. Mark Heffernan,
2. Roger J. Summers,
3. Anne Thorburn,
4. Esra Ogru,
5. Robert Gianello,
6. Woei-Jia Jiang and
7. Frank M. Ng

• Received February 2, 2001.
• Accepted August 6, 2001.

 

[KennyHunter9]

I think it was the football department structure more than individuals. The person responsible for the football department overall would probably be under the pump the most I suppose.

Complete cop-out to blame structures and reporting lines. What bull. This is a failure of character.

What Essendon supporters can't accept is that their messiah acted in a highly immoral manner with the players under his care. The person who was meant to provide mentoring to Hird, Thompson, was no better. They assembled people who were prepared to experiment on these players as if they were lab rats.

Remember the messiah had himself injected by a scientist because he wasn't feeling well. He could have gone to the office around the corner and seen the club doctor (his GP) but he didn't. What does this really say about Hird's commitment to sports science.

Do we believe for one moment that Hird, who had known Charter for 10 years, had exchanged detailed text messages with Dank about a wide range of supplements, personally sought Corcoran's return to the club, had himself injected in his own office did not understand what was going on?

Call it character, call it ethics, call it morals. But don't hide behind the pitiful excuse that a few job descriptions were not up to scratch.

 

[sherb]

I think it was the football department structure more than individuals. The person responsible for the football department overall would probably be under the pump the most I suppose.

I've said before, if it were my club in the firing line, I'd want all those responsible gawwwwwn.

But apparently Bombers supporters are a very forgiving and understanding lot when it comes to those responsible for publicly dragging their club and its reputation through the mud.

I'd also add that the stench of all this is going to be that much harder to get rid of while these people stay at Essendon.

 

[plough]

avoid email and a date stamp, then get a doctor to write it so no can't can read it

beautiful in it's simplicity

 

[CroZwell]

I dare say info on AOD wasn't as forthcoming last year. Not sure you can say much about thymosin yet since we still don't know which form was used.

Perhaps you could read the title of this publication?


Can a Growth Hormone-derived Peptide (AOD9604) Prevent Bone Loss and Fragility in a Rat Model of Osteoporosis?
EJ Rowe - 2007 - University of Toronto (Canada)


Now why would EJ Rowe refer to AOD9604 as a HORMONE-DERIVED-PEPTIDE?? In 2007

keep posting - this is fun!

 

[Snake_Baker]

No, I think responsibilities weren't properly defined. It seems no one knew who was responsible for keeping the sports science department in check. A whole range of people are probably to blame for this including Evans, Robeson, Hamilton Hird and Reid. Do you fire them all or learn from the mistake and improve the structure?

You sack them all and rub the players out for 2 years for knowingly taking banned substances.