Domestic Violence Epidemic

[Kurve]

Thread here on COERCIVE CONTROL

 

[Bostonian]

The vast majority don't, thankfully, but of those that do, I think there are similar reasons to why some boys want to be criminals.

• Low intelligence
• Propensity to bully
• Low achievers
• Laziness - attracted to get rich and get women quick (without doing the work)
• Focus on body rather than brains - laziness again, easier to go to the gym than get a (valuable) degree
• Shallow view of what makes women desirable
• Greed for material possessions

Not exhaustive at all but I do see similarities between the mansopsphere and, say, eshays.

Nothing about how they are treated before they reach that point?

Like if any person is told they are some negative trait every day do you think at some point they then embrace that negativity and make it their personality and space?

 

[jason_recliner]

Nothing about how they are treated before they reach that point?

Nurture definitely has a role. Fathers of a lot of bullies are bullies themselves. And the other qualities listed, boys can definitely pick them up from their fathers (but also from other influences like social circle, social media).

And to your other question, if kids are put down every day their self esteem will likely suffer, but I'm not sure that necessarily leads to destructive, misogynistic bullying (and criminal propensity).

 

[Bostonian]

Nurture definitely has a role. Fathers of a lot of bullies are bullies themselves. And the other qualities listed, boys can definitely pick them up from their fathers (but also from other influences like social circle, social media).

What about social media specifically.

Given its influence over young people do you think when they notice double standards it can turn them a certain direction?

Start to form that resentment and attitude?

 

[jason_recliner]

What about social media specifically.

Given its influence over young people do you think when they notice double standards it can turn them a certain direction?

Start to form that resentment and attitude?

Are you able to be more specific? Which double standards on social media are you suggesting cause boys to become misogynistic bullies?

 

[faible]

Are you able to be more specific? Which double standards on social media are you suggesting cause boys to become misogynistic bullies?

He said 'manosphere spaces' and appears to be trying to have a genuine discussion.

How about we steer clear of the bolded for now?

 

[jason_recliner]

He said 'manosphere spaces' and appears to be trying to have a genuine discussion.

How about we steer clear of the bolded for now?

I don't know that much about the social media content other than what I've read here and in some news articles but I thought that movement comprised and promoted misogynistic bullying? (and worse, including criminality, in some cases)

 

[faible]

I don't know that much about the social media content other than what I've read here and in some news articles but I thought that movement comprised misogynistic bullying?

I get the sense Bostonian is trying to say that people gravitate towards the manosphere for <reasons>.

Simply launching in to the whole misogynistic bullying label thing is going to shut down that discussion pretty quickly, given chances are for many teens the entry point in to that space probably has less to do with the more extreme views of the community than it does the more accessible parts and underlying reasons teens might be feeling that way.

Note: this is not a defense of the manosphere.

I'm actually genuinely interested to hear what he has to say, and doing the thing where we simply launch in to labelling it and not actually listening to anything is going to kill that.

 

[Bostonian]

Are you able to be more specific? Which double standards on social media are you suggesting cause boys to become misogynistic bullies.

The social media double standards that start them on their path to feeling like nobody gives a damn about them and they are held to different standards than others.

Do you think people's views can be influenced by resentment due to double standards?

 

[jason_recliner]

The social media double standards that start them on their path to feeling like nobody gives a damn about them and they are held to different standards than others.

Do you think people's views can be influenced by resentment due to double standards?

I don't understand to which double standards you are referring. Are you able to be more specific and provide examples please?

 

[Bostonian]

I don't understand to which double standards you are referring. Are you able to be more specific and provide examples please?

Tik tik as example.

Huge with younger people for influence.

Also huge for young women openly hating on men and saying all kinds of messed up things.

The reaction to those kinds of people is vastly different to those of people that are regarded as women haters.

The manosphere people get ridiculed and called out all over the spectrum of social media outlets. No issues with that if they go down those extreme ways


So in your view could a young man be influenced by the content of those videos when he sees how many likes they get and start to feel resentful in any way?

If he's been told to be respectful to women what could be a takeaway from seeing the opposite not being promoted?

A feeling of double standards?

 

[jason_recliner]

So in your view could a young man be influenced by the content of those videos when he sees how many likes they get and start to feel resentful in any way?

If he's been told to be respectful to women what could be a takeaway from seeing the opposite not being promoted?

A feeling of double standards?

Yes, maybe some would.

Tik tik as example.

Huge with younger people for influence.

Also huge for young women openly hating on men and saying all kinds of messed up things.

The reaction to those kinds of people is vastly different to those of people that are regarded as women haters.

I'm not familiar with these videos, wasn't aware there is a 'man-hating' movement. I think most teenage boys would understand that the reaction is different - the "double standard" - because girls aren't absorbing social media content and then raping, bashing, abusing, objectifying and killing boys and men. But maybe it would be harder for young boys to process this if exposed to that content, especially if this was not explained/contextualised to them.

 

[faible]

I think most teenage boys would understand that the reaction is different

I actually think quite a few would struggle with it, especially the way algorithms work where it could end up with a heap of content like that being pushed your way if you engage with it in any way.

 

[Bostonian]

Yes, maybe some would.


I'm not familiar with these videos, wasn't aware there is a 'man-hating' movement.

It exists. It's part of this social media circular thing. They all play a part in creating each other.

I think most teenage boys would understand that the reaction is different - the "double standard" - because girls aren't absorbing social media content and then raping, bashing, abusing, objectifying and killing boys and men. But maybe it would be harder for young boys to process this if exposed to that content, especially if this was not explained/contextualised to them.

Lots of falsehoods in there.

You are correct though in the last part. So how would you contextualise it to them?

 

[jason_recliner]

You are correct though in the last part. So how would you contextualise it to them?

The first part. i.e. girls badmouthing boys online isn't the same as boys and men raping, bashing, abusing, objectifying and killing girls and women. Sticks and stones, be the bigger person, ignore, etc. i.e. it's not a double standard because gender-based violence is not the same thing.

 

[Bostonian]

The first part. i.e. girls badmouthing boys online isn't the same as boys and men raping, bashing, abusing, objectifying and killing girls and women. Sticks and stones, be the bigger person, ignore, etc. i.e. it's not a double standard because gender-based violence is not the same thing.

We're talking about the impacts of social media and how it can lead to people heading down a certain path.

You have jumped the shark tank and gone to the extreme end game.

There is a double standard at the starting point and you're never going to start to stop people heading further down that path if you don't deal with all hateful behaviour from both sides of the equation.

 

[jason_recliner]

We're talking about the impacts of social media and how it can lead to people heading down a certain path.

Yes, and I think by contextualising the content most teenage boys can understand that it's not worth worrying too much about. Those that will use it as an excuse probably have other misogynistic tendencies anyway.

You have jumped the shark tank and gone to the extreme end game.

There is a double standard at the starting point and you're never going to start to stop people heading further down that path if you don't deal with all hateful behaviour from both sides of the equation.

Look, without seeing the content you're describing it's hard to understand fully what you're talking about. I don't want to go on TikTok and I haven't seen it elsewhere.

I agree with you it's a good idea for people to call haters out for what they are. But haters gonna hate, I don't know if there's much we can do about that except explain what it is to boys, why it's different to misogyny, and why it needs to be looked down upon and ignored.

What are you proposing?

Just had a quick look through some Reddit threads where people asked why there is man-hating content on TikTok (threads were all from 2021-2023) and quite liked this little adage: Misandry hurts mens’ pride, misogyny kills women.

 

[faible]

Yes, and I think by contextualising the content most teenage boys can understand that it's not worth worrying too much about. Those that will use it as an excuse probably have other misogynistic tendencies anyway.


Look, without seeing the content you're describing it's hard to understand fully what you're talking about. I don't want to go on TikTok and I haven't seen it elsewhere.

I agree with you it's a good idea for people to call haters out for what they are. But haters gonna hate, I don't know if there's much we can do about that except explain what it is to boys, why it's different to misogyny, and why it needs to be looked down upon and ignored.

What are you proposing?

Just had a quick look through some Reddit threads where people asked why there is man-hating content on TikTok (threads were all from 2021-2023) and quite liked this little adage: Misandry hurts mens’ pride, misogyny kills women.

You don't see the point Bostonian is making?

You're a young teenage boy. You haven't done anything to anyone. You're on TikTok (as unhealthy as it is, we know young people all flock to it). You're told to be respectful to other people, but mostly to women. You're seeing a lot of 'man-hating' content. You don't understand why being respectful to men isn't an expectation as well. You seek comfort in a community that doesn't vilify you because of your gender. You find the 'manosphere'.

Would that be the approximate summary version of events Bostonian ?

Now obviously plenty of young men have good role-models in their life that might help them contextualise what they're seeing, maybe they don't really see that context, or are better at ignoring it. But there's some who don't have any of that.

 

[Bostonian]

Yes, and I think by contextualising the content most teenage boys can understand that it's not worth worrying too much about. Those that will use it as an excuse probably have other misogynistic tendencies anyway.

There's no context where you can tell them it's not ok for you to trash women but it's ok for them to trash you and think they'll accept that as anything but double standards and favoritism.

You really don't seem to be getting how your view/attitude is what sends some of them down that path.

Look, without seeing the content you're describing it's hard to understand fully what you're talking about. I don't want to go on TikTok and I haven't seen it elsewhere.

I agree with you it's a good idea for people to call haters out for what they are. But haters gonna hate, I don't know if there's much we can do about that except explain what it is to boys, why it's different to misogyny, and why it needs to be looked down upon and ignored.

What are you proposing?

I'd propose actually putting some time and effort into young men's self-esteem for one. Lack of any self esteem is a big issue with those who slip into the manosphere.

Rather than lecture them, tell them they are s**t, predators and problematic, lift them up instead.

Maybe don't make the haters into heroes too...

 

[CredibleSauce]

I think there are plenty of men with abhorrent views of women who would never abuse or kill one.
Doesn’t make abhorrent views, or even benignly misogynistic views okay, but by themselves I don’t think these views directly cause deaths of women.

The underlying abhorrent views may make it more likely, but at the end of the day I think the issue is honestly down to emotional regulation skills.

As in the majority of men who kill women in DV situations - whether they have a poor view of women in particular or not - kill them because they’ve encountered a stressor and don't have the emotional resilience to resolve it in a mature manner.
Again, does not in any way make it okay - makes it more dangerous for women in fact - but I think people are ignoring this aspect.

We can drive as much social change as we want but while physically stronger men lack the emotional regulation skills to resolve problems, women and children (boys and girls both) are going to bear the brunt of it when those men resort to violence.

I don’t know how we’d implement some kind of population wide mandatory resilience building education (would probably have to be implemented in schools) and I have no idea what an effective program would actually involve, but I’m near certain it’s key in reducing these outcomes.

 

[jason_recliner]

You don't see the point Bostonian is making?

You're a young teenage boy. You haven't done anything to anyone. You're on TikTok (as unhealthy as it is, we know young people all flock to it). You're told to be respectful to other people, but mostly to women. You're seeing a lot of 'man-hating' content. You don't understand why being respectful to men isn't an expectation as well. You seek comfort in a community that doesn't vilify you because of your gender. You find the 'manosphere'.

Again, I haven't seen this mass of misandristic content so I don't know how much it is influencing boys and young men. Sure, if all they are hearing is how bad men are, and they have nothing to balance that, and aren't capable of seeing that content for what it is, and have nobody to help them see that, then some are likely to turn to misogynistic content for balance. Is this reality for a significant subpopulation of boys? I don't know.

There's no context where you can tell them it's not ok for you to trash women but it's ok for them to trash you and think they'll accept that as anything but double standards and favoritism.

Who cares what idiots think and say? Let the man-haters hate, it makes no difference to men.

You really don't seem to be getting how your view/attitude is what sends some of them down that path.

Correct. I don't accept that my attitude is responsible for misogynistic boys and young men.

I'd propose actually putting some time and effort into young men's self-esteem for one. Lack of any self esteem is a big issue with those who slip into the manosphere.

I don't know how you drew this conclusion but I'm not disputing it out of hand.

Rather than lecture them, tell them they are s**t, predators and problematic, lift them up instead.

Who's doing this (apart from some man-haters on TikTok)?

Maybe don't make the haters into heroes too...

Agreed, but I don't know who is doing this.

I think there are plenty of men with abhorrent views of women who would never abuse or kill one.
Doesn’t make abhorrent views, or even benignly misogynistic views okay, but by themselves I don’t think these views directly cause deaths of women.

Agreed, but I think misogyny is the root cause of a lot of other abuse, from gaslighting to coercive control to financial abuse.

I don’t know how we’d implement some kind of population wide mandatory resilience building education (would probably have to be implemented in schools) and I have no idea what an effective program would actually involve, but I’m near certain it’s key in reducing these outcomes.

Resilience is taught in schools.

 

[faible]

Again, I haven't seen this mass of misandristic content so I don't know how much it is influencing boys and young men. Sure, if all they are hearing is how bad men are, and they have nothing to balance that, and aren't capable of seeing that content for what it is, and have nobody to help them see that, then some are likely to turn to misogynistic content for balance. Is this reality for a significant population of boys? I don't know.

Neither, but Tate accrued a fairly high profile so I can only assume there's at least a reasonable number of young blokes drawn to him for some reason or other.

 

[Bostonian]

Who cares what idiots think and say? Let the man-haters hate, it makes no difference to men.

That's a ridiculous take. Of course it can have an impact on their thoughts and feelings.

Especially young people.

Correct. I don't accept that my attitude is responsible for misogynistic boys and young men.

Because you're dismissing their thoughts and feelings and telling them to ignore it, suck it up...

Not an issue?

I don't know how you drew this conclusion hut I'm not disputing it out of hand.

You asked for what my proposal would be to help tackle it. I said make them feel good about themselves.

Most people who feel good about life tend to be easier to communicate with.

 

[jason_recliner]

Neither, but Tate accrued a fairly high profile so I can only assume there's at least a reasonable number of young blokes drawn to him for some reason or other.

He has (had?) a big following amongst boys in Australian schools. How much of this was due to seeing misandric content on social media? I don't know but my gut feeling is that's not the primary reason (JMO).

 

[jason_recliner]

Because you're dismissing their thoughts and feelings and telling them to ignore it, suck it up...

Not an issue?

Yes, ignore it and suck it up. Important life skills. Not everybody in your life is going to tell you you're fantastic, special and amazing and everything else you want to hear. We need to be able to take criticism when it is warranted and ignore it when it's not. Being a snowflake is unlikely to help you much in life.

You asked for what my proposal would be to help tackle it. I said make them feel good about themselves.

Most people who feel good about life tend to be easier to communicate with.

OK, makes sense. We should all be making those around us feel good about themselves if their behaviour warrants it.

 

[Bostonian]

Yes, ignore it and suck it up. Important life skills. Not everybody in your life is going to tell you you're fantastic, special and amazing and everything else you want to hear. We need to be able to take criticism when it is warranted and ignore it when it's not. Being a snowflake is unlikely to help you much in life.

So they get told they need to express their feelings because men don't and that's bad. Constantly told its a part of "toxic" masculinity to not be able to talk about feelings.

Now you're telling them to not push back against it and suck it up?

So what is it?

No wonder they are so confused and make bad decisions in life based on people trashing them then being told to suck it up when they express issues.

OK, makes sense. We should all be making those around us feel good about themselves if their behaviour warrants it.

If their behaviour warrants it?

It's the people with low esteem that have the bad behavioural issues more than not.

Those are the people are the ones you need to target to lift up from the mire. Yeah?