Finally - A Press Conference with Substance

[Igloo]

The Contested Ball winning 2007 Geelong game plan is outdated.

The one constant in finals football is the intensity. There are more contests, they are harder to win. The umpires usually put the whistle away for a lot of it as well, so you can't rely on free kicks.
Contested ball is a must to win finals. We played a more outside oriented game in our prelim years. No surprise we always lost the qualifying final, won the semi against a lesser team, then lost the prelim.

We've learned this, it's the fundamentals. Now we're trying to bring in the other aspects of the game. Macca said from the very start that the players will be learning it this way, from the inside out.
We just don't have the experience/personnel.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

The one constant in finals football is the intensity. There are more contests, they are harder to win. The umpires usually put the whistle away for a lot of it as well, so you can't rely on free kicks.
Contested ball is a must to win finals. We played a more outside oriented game in our prelim years. No surprise we always lost the qualifying final, won the semi against a lesser team, then lost the prelim.

We've learned this, it's the fundamentals. Now we're trying to bring in the other aspects of the game. Macca said from the very start that the players will be learning it this way, from the inside out.
We just don't have the experience/personnel.

I'm not denying the fundamental, or the importance of the contested ball - I just used that term to describe our game plan as a whole, and how it's outdated. With the modern game expanding within the last 3-5 years with forward presses, intensive pressure etc. to break this you either need good disposal efficiency, or to be able to run. We can't run, we won't be able to overnight, so that's where good disposal efficiency comes into account. But because we're so content in winning the contested ball in the first place, we give up both speed and disposal efficiency in order to win the contested ball. The Prelim Final gameplan is outdated. It's not like 2007-2010, where there was similar emphasis on winning the contested ball, but you could easily transition between contested and uncontested footy. Now with larger forward pressure, forward presses and attack on the ball carrier, means that you never can transition into uncontested footy that easily.

This is where my posts about goals per forward 50 comes into account. Because we're not quick and/or good spreaders of the ball, it means that we can't get overlaps, we hardly ever have open forward lines. So then we need to have people who can pinpoint passes. But we don't have that either. So we end up kicking it inside 50 and not getting anything out of that.

All the good teams have a Inside50/Goal ratio of below 4, we don't.

 

[Mr. Walker]

CyclopsRules have you been reading the letters McCartney sends to members each week (if you are a member)? It's a good read and he goes into a bit of depth.

I'm a member and I don't get the letter! How come? Is it because I made fun of the beard, once?

 

[cammo78]

I'm a member and I don't get the letter! How come? Is it because I made fun of the beard, once?

He means email.

Suggest you update your details in your account.

 

[ErnieSigley]

Passionate bulldog supporters don't like that argument.

They want success now! Not later, NOW!

We have so much of it in the past 60 years its getting infectious.
I want to be competitive and that's been very rare in the past 2 years.

 

[JJHunter]

We have so much of it in the past 60 years its getting infectious.
I want to be competitive and that's been very rare in the past 2 years.

I don't think they can read - All I want to see is improvement in areas we struggled in last year. Doesnt mean I want us to win - hell I couldnt care less if we lost by 70 points so long as we were improving our ball use (currently the WORST IN THE COMP - again another fact). Thats all improvement - alot of on eyed supporters on here who refuse to see anything but whatever positives they find. When there are none any weekend - we get told to be patient.

I get called stupid for a post that stated some facts - actual numbers backing up our defiiciencies.
Re-read my original post I must not be allowed to do it.
threenewpadlocks Is the only one willing discuss game style and the inbalances in our list.
at leats he is bringing some intelligent football analysis and talk to the forum rather than the standard defence - be patient. Give us more than that people !

 

[UnCani]

Patience and time.

They are just not up to it YET.

Its been 58 years, 7 months, 12 days since our one and only Grand Final win.

Patience ran out at about 1974!

 

[Zgope1]

How bout we see out the year before we decide we haven't improved, hmm?

 

[Dazb86]

Lloyd just touched on this on footy classified. Said mcartney needs to change his philosophy and then brought up a list of players who are very similar.

Boyd, cross, libba, Wallis, lower, Stevens, Addison, smith.

He then pointed out our disposal efficiency.

Finished by saying mcartney is not coaching the cats and doesnt have ablett, barrel, Johnson, Chapman etc there to
make it work

Fair point Imo.

 

[Zgope1]

Lloyd just touched on this on footy classified. Said mcartney needs to change his philosophy and then brought up a list of players who are very similar.

Boyd, cross, libba, Wallis, lower, Stevens, Addison, smith.

He then pointed out our disposal efficiency.

Finished by saying mcartney is not coaching the cats and doesnt have ablett, barrel, Johnson, Chapman etc there to
make it work

Fair point Imo.

I thought he was simplistic and stupid.

Do we all think Mccartney tells the players to just win the hard ball and that's it... ffs.

He's developing the kids very well, our ball movement in game 1 was brilliant and since we've been pounded for injuries/young and underperforming.

Also Lloyd was talking about one paced players. Bartel, Johnson and Ablett aren't quicker players, their strengths are footy ability and agility, which are similar to Wallis, Libba and Dahlhaus.

Just because there's a non negotiable on contested ball, which there was at geelong, doesn't mean we're going to be a bunch of dumb gorillas for the next 5 years. Geelong weren't renowned for their contested ball to footy classified's viewers, they were a renowned excitement machine, but they did the basics right. we're miles of that but come on we knew that and it sickens me that Lloyd won't recognise our starting position with Macca. He's wacking an easy target but is just feeding his s**t to a nothing audience. I'd love Macca to have an interview with him

 

[Dazb86]

The facts are we've had too many inside mids playing in the one side since libba and Wallis joined the club.

To compound that problem we've taken and played smith, lower,jong and stevens. I'm hoping hrovat and prudden can offer something different when they are ready.

There aren't too many top teams around with a midfield full of slow unskilled ball winners in the side

 

[Zgope1]

The facts are we've had too many inside mids playing in the one side since libba and Wallis joined the club.

To compound that problem we've taken and played smith, lower,jong and stevens. I'm hoping hrovat and prudden can offer something different when they are ready.

There aren't too many top teams around with a midfield full of slow unskilled ball winners in the side

Boyd and Cross will both retire one day.

Jong was a rookie pick and got a game when half our side was injured last year.

Stevens has some pace, links up play and solid footskills, he's a developing player.

Libba and Wallis both have skills.

Smith's kicking has been much better this year and he's not so slow, actually has an explosive step that makes him hard to tackle.

Agree we need a bit of speed but what's Macca supposed to do about that?

I mean people are getting upset but two of our quickest and most skilful players are re entering the team this week. It'll be great to see how the forward line functions with Murph back up there

 

[immortalmike]

Lloyd just touched on this on footy classified. Said mcartney needs to change his philosophy and then brought up a list of players who are very similar.

Boyd, cross, libba, Wallis, lower, Stevens, Addison, smith.

He then pointed out our disposal efficiency.

Finished by saying mcartney is not coaching the cats and doesnt have ablett, barrel, Johnson, Chapman etc there to
make it work

Fair point Imo.

Yeah but none of those guys were stars at 20 either.

Also Lower, Boyd, Cross, and Addison are there as senior bodies to protect the young guys. They will most likely be all but gone when we challenge, with the possibility with one Crawf like talisman (which I hope is Crossy).

You also mentioned Jong as a slow inside mid, but he is actually the quickest bloke on our list.

 

[Trent85]

Zgope1 i feel like I'm trolling with but geez your on fire, can't fault your comments.

 

[Zgope1]

Zgope1 i feel like I'm trolling with but geez your on fire, can't fault your comments.

Cheers mate, i don't think anybody's perfect, Macca included, but when people lose perspective or in Lloyd's case, ignore it, it winds me up. haha

 

[trophies]

I like positive thinking. I believe that dedication, constant practice, experience and sticking to the plan will all bring improvement.
But for the life of me I can't see the WBFC consistently challenging the top teams in the foreseeable future, and the reason for that is that our list just doesn't have the foot speed and thinking speed or the disposal skills to compete.
Unfortunately, that extra bit of speed (physically and mentally) and awareness can't be obtained by working even harder than the opposition. It's part of the package that the recruiters buy when they make a selection. Also unfortunately, disposal skills are pretty much limited by natural ability and are unlikely to improve greatly after the age at which a player is drafted. If a draftee can't put a 40m bullet onto a leading FF he is unlikely to be able to do so 5 years later regardless of the amount of practice. (Hello Mr Cross! Oh, and there's Mr Boyd!)
From our current problems in this area it is clear that the ability to use the ball hasn't been highly regarded when our recruits have been selected. We are paying the price now, and that is likely to continue for some time.
Getting the ball is really important, but all that effort is futile if the disposal is inept and to be realistic about it, ours is abysmal. It's really hard to know how good Jones and the other forwards really are because they don't have the confidence to lead decisively - hey, they've seen this guy at training! The pass could go anywhere but is likely to be a slow floater in at best the general direction. Result; another turnover. It gets worse because the opposition backline doesn't get put under a lot of pressure and they can run to space or overlap with impunity. (Hello Adelaide and Eagles!)
I don't have a problem with the G&D shown by most of our players. I believe that the squad will improve over a couple of years. But I don't see us having sustained success without the inclusion of players with strong delivery skills, and that can only come from recruiting.

 

[Mr. Walker]

He means email.

Suggest you update your details in your account.

Thanks.

 

[JJHunter]

The facts are we've had too many inside mids playing in the one side since libba and Wallis joined the club.

To compound that problem we've taken and played smith, lower,jong and stevens. I'm hoping hrovat and prudden can offer something different when they are ready.

There aren't too many top teams around with a midfield full of slow unskilled ball winners in the side

And the point Lloyd made is more so that our mids don't have anywhere near the skill of Ablett Bartel and Johnson. He backed that up by saying we have the worst kicking efficiency in the comp. Geelong were exciting cause how they moved the ball agree - we don't have the foot skills to do the same.

That is an area we have gone backwards this year - point out individuals all you like who may have improved but collectively we are now the worst kicking team in the AFL. We were not in 2012.

No one is saying we should be winning games - Lloyd like me is saying that we need to see the start of the development of an outside game - we didn't have one last year and haven't seen much sign of one this year.

And I do not think its unreasonable to look at the list and see whether they will be able to do it. Some of you guys yourselves are doing that by saying Addison, lower etc wont be around. That just is justifying the list of players LLoyd put up last night. Exactly why he did it to question whether these guys have the ability to improve in that area.

Way too sensitive some people.

 

[JJHunter]

I like positive thinking. I believe that dedication, constant practice, experience and sticking to the plan will all bring improvement.
But for the life of me I can't see the WBFC consistently challenging the top teams in the foreseeable future, and the reason for that is that our list just doesn't have the foot speed and thinking speed or the disposal skills to compete.
Unfortunately, that extra bit of speed (physically and mentally) and awareness can't be obtained by working even harder than the opposition. It's part of the package that the recruiters buy when they make a selection. Also unfortunately, disposal skills are pretty much limited by natural ability and are unlikely to improve greatly after the age at which a player is drafted. If a draftee can't put a 40m bullet onto a leading FF he is unlikely to be able to do so 5 years later regardless of the amount of practice. (Hello Mr Cross! Oh, and there's Mr Boyd!)
From our current problems in this area it is clear that the ability to use the ball hasn't been highly regarded when our recruits have been selected. We are paying the price now, and that is likely to continue for some time.
Getting the ball is really important, but all that effort is futile if the disposal is inept and to be realistic about it, ours is abysmal. It's really hard to know how good Jones and the other forwards really are because they don't have the confidence to lead decisively - hey, they've seen this guy at training! The pass could go anywhere but is likely to be a slow floater in at best the general direction. Result; another turnover. It gets worse because the opposition backline doesn't get put under a lot of pressure and they can run to space or overlap with impunity. (Hello Adelaide and Eagles!)
I don't have a problem with the G&D shown by most of our players. I believe that the squad will improve over a couple of years. But I don't see us having sustained success without the inclusion of players with strong delivery skills, and that can only come from recruiting.

Just wanted to say thanks for your post - I agree with it all but m,ore so just good to see some analysing the list - providing some detail and applying logic when a cool balanced view of things.
Good to see someone call a spade a spade - not a ferrari just cause it has red, white and blue colours on it.

 

[Doggies_13]

Just a couple of things, lets throw up stats then say take this game out and that game, we have had one game against a side who are at the same level as us and we smashed them but yea we have to take those stats out. I think a lot of peoples problem is they saw round 1 and forgot we were still developing obviously we were bound for a premiership after that one game.
Are we slow? Do we lack outside run? Yes of cause we are and of cause we do and they are the type of players we need to add but you can't grab them mid season or out of thin air, next draft we will add more of them like we did in this draft. If you look at it we could throw Boyd and Cross and every other senior player out but then we would be Melbourne. Yes Boyd and Cross are letting the team down with disposals but they are there to teach the kids about work rate and how you attack the footy and i can see why macca keeps playing too many inside mids because we want the likes of Smith, Wallis, Libba even chuck stevens in there, it is so when Boyd and Cross go these young guys will have 50+ games and be ready to stand on there own two feet.
For people to say we haven't improved is pretty laughable when you look at guys like Jones, Libba, Smith, Roughie, Macrae, Stringer these guys all show signs of being good players, some of our senior players are showing signs that they are almost at the end in Cross and Gia and even Boyd, people might be confusing that as us not improving but those guys were never taking us back to finals campaigns.
Footy Classified would be the worst football show on tv as every person on there has an ego and an agenda, they talk rubbish and stick up for their own team. 2012 Macca's game plan was crash in and when the contested ball. if you listen this year it is about maintaing that and now working on the spread from the contest and the forward line structure and being harder to play against defensively all those three aspects have shown signs of improvement from last year. People say our forward line isn't working but it's young and developing, most guys would of had at the start of the season Gia, Higgins, Dickson and Cordy in there starting 6 forwards they have missed 13 games between them, Williams is yet to play and Murphy has missed 3 games.
In my opinion the team is on the right path, we are developing good young players who when on can match it with very good sides, add some more outside class and run to our ball winning ability and i can see the forward line getting more quick direct easy ball, guys will get more free ball in space and we will develop into a very good side. Is Macca a good coach? i think the jury is still out but i think he has the team heading the right way if we fail to add outside run or develop with that then maybe a change is needed but if you look at what he inherited and the signs of the young players coming through we are moving forward slowly. At the end of the day we are where we should be for the the list we have and where the players are in their development

 

[JJHunter]

For people to say we haven't improved is pretty laughable

Don't agree with alot what you said but its good you actually talked footy and discuss the matter rather than just flog any doubters off.

Respectfully I am looking for you to point out where we have improved as a team ? Individuals will improve I get that but I am looking for what we are doing better as a team we were not doing last year.

The main two areas I talk about are kicking efficiency and outside ball. You make alot of good points about not being able to change the cattle mid season - however shouldn't it be a factor in team selection Just one example - why would you leave a pearce who showed when he played he was an over lap handball receive player inthe VFL after being the in the best two weeks in a row but then bring in or continue to play guys who dont have these assets.

Ball use
We were told in the off season that the main focus for improvement was our ball use. Players kicking was tracked at training and the players given kicking efficiency ratings based on their training. I know I went a few times and have spoken to players.

So I ask you the question - Have we improved our kicking this year ?

All ratings of efficiency and turn overs have seen us go backwards.
Please you cannot tell me we have improved in this area.

 

[Dazb86]

I have faith in mcartneys ability to develop the younger guys I just think his coaching philosophy might be a bit outdated.

If you look at Geelong they've moved away from dominating clearances and have focussed on putting sides to the sword on the turnovers.

I don't have stats on me but I'm guessing theyve lost more clearances than they'be won this year.

 

[JJHunter]

You are right Dazb86
http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/the-contest-is-up.1004228/#post-28121079

 

[Doggies_13]

Don't agree with alot what you said but its good you actually talked footy and discuss the matter rather than just flog any doubters off.

Respectfully I am looking for you to point out where we have improved as a team ? Individuals will improve I get that but I am looking for what we are doing better as a team we were not doing last year.

The main two areas I talk about are kicking efficiency and outside ball. You make alot of good points about not being able to change the cattle mid season - however shouldn't it be a factor in team selection Just one example - why would you leave a pearce who showed when he played he was an over lap handball receive player inthe VFL after being the in the best two weeks in a row but then bring in or continue to play guys who dont have these assets.

Ball use
We were told in the off season that the main focus for improvement was our ball use. Players kicking was tracked at training and the players given kicking efficiency ratings based on their training. I know I went a few times and have spoken to players.

So I ask you the question - Have we improved our kicking this year ?

All ratings of efficiency and turn overs have seen us go backwards.
Please you cannot tell me we have improved in this area.

Regarding pearce, i can see why people wanted him in but at the same time i can see why addison was brought in as every side has played a defensive forward on Hurn i believe and they wanted Addison for that role but he did fail at it in hindsight, the other in was Howard and i'm not sure on the Vfl stats but last year Howard averaged 16 disposals and Pearce 9 in Afl games played. i do think Pearce will be the better player though which looks badly on a first round pick for howard.

Regarding the improvement, i don't think you will see the improvement in those two areas until we recruit for players like Macrae and Griffen. But in my opinion the Kicking efficiency should improvements in on last year in the first few rounds, it's hard to judge in Adelaide with the conditions and last week was very ordinary but Murphy and Griffen out probably hurt it. The one good thing i see is our young inside mids minus Smith are not to bad of kicks and are better users than Boyd / Cross. The stats probably don't support this but i think we have improved in our forward structure with Jones now working hard on multiple leads and creating a contest and our forwards aren't on top of each other as much, and i think our players ar spreading better from the contest. The one thing that i think makes there look like there isn't improvement is the factor some players ie. Boyd / Cross / Gia have gone backwards and i think the end is closer than many people thought for them.

Simply as an entire team has the Kicking improved - the answer is probably no, are our younger players using the ball better i would say yes, are guys like Boyd using the ball worse i would say yes. I think it's up and down from week to week and you have to expect that with 15 players under 50 games, i think a lot of it comes to decision making where they try too much and instead of hitting the easy kick they go for the harder one.

 

[josh the gent]

The facts are we've had too many inside mids playing in the one side since libba and Wallis joined the club.

To compound that problem we've taken and played smith, lower,jong and stevens. I'm hoping hrovat and prudden can offer something different when they are ready.

There aren't too many top teams around with a midfield full of slow unskilled ball winners in the side

How do you define unskilled - Libba, Wallis and Smith aren't 'unskilled' (nor is Hrovat by all accounts), and they're our future midfield.

As for slow midfielders, I think you will find that teams will be looking for better ball winners over the next few years....... once the interchange cap comes in.

All this rubbish about 'contested possessions and clearances don't mean much' will all change - players won't be that well rested that they can get to the places to put 'zone pressure' on the clearance kick, etc.

I think we are planning, and developing, perfectly for finals aspirations in 2015 or 2016.

Must keep patience over the rebuild years though, both with players and more importantly, with the coach who is building the list.