TAFE versus University

[Hap Hapablap]

interesting thread this. the top 8 unis mentioned, i wouldnt know about the other universities but ive heard the comparison between UWA and Curtin are not exactly fair. For instance everyone says UWA is better than Curtin however this isnt true in some cases. For instance yes UWA may have the upper hand over Curtin in the Humanities department (eg. Law, Commerce, etc) but Curtin has the upper hand in the technology area (eg. Engineering, Chemistry, etc).

It really depends on what your son wants to do. If he is looking for a degree in the finance sector or legal works send him to one of the top 8. Otherwise the 2nd placed university which usually has technology in their name is just as good as the top in the state. Ive studied engineering at Curtin and I have to say its environment is much more better than the environment my mates go through at UWA. Thankfully now im doing a course thats only done at my uni in my state (cons. Management) but there will be a lot of Commerce students at my uni that will be overlooked as those from UWA would be more in favour.

Also let your son know that he should do something that he likes. Ive learnt from my experiences that dont choose a course to do if you have no idea whats involved and/or are you interested in it for a lifetime. Put it this way, ensure your son gets a decent ENTER so he can enter university and then from there he can do basically anything (with some conditions there).

My old man was always right. TAFE can no way beat University at anything unless if its a tradesman job. What irritates me is that some people I know are traddies and have money, property,car, etc where a lot of people including myself are still at uni studying our guts out. However at the end of the day Traddies will be limited to a point where they cant go further unless they update their skills whereas university students well the sky is the limit. In the long run, a uni student would have a far more successful and prosperous life than a traddie. Who could say no to a salary in the low to mid 100000's (in some areas much higher in particular medicine, law and engineering) whereas a traddie gets only 50-70 grand a year.

 

[hackysack86]

I am currently a 4th year student studying a double degree in Economics and Applied Finance at Macquarie University.

The answer to your major question is that if your son wants to work in finance and wants to be successful (which is different for everyone) university is the only way to go. Your son, being only in high school, would have no idea about the vast amount of jobs available in finance, which are only accessible through obtaining a degree.

Jobs in finance range from financial planning, financial advising all the way up to funds management, derivatives trading and investment banking. When I started out at uni, i wanted to do financial planning. That has now changed considerably. I am now looking at working in funds management, equities research or commodities research.

University provides the necessary range and quality of education necessary to be successful in finance. In addition, if your son gets to university and dislikes finance or may not want to work in finance, the degree can be used to jobs in a number of areas.

The uni u go to doesnt matter too much. And if your son fails to get the marks to get into melbourne university, he can go to another, work his arse off so to speak and get good marks in his first semester or first year, and then transfer to melbourne university. There is no one way to a career in the finance industry, but a university education is essential.

 

[Jabso]

I didn't get a good enough enter to get in an accounting course (although I may have scraped in to LaTrobe's commerce but there was a mistake with my preferences sorta but that's another story). So I went through TAFE @ RMIT for 2 years, got an advanced diploma, and managed to get 1.5 years credit for the degree at RMIT.

In terms of getting a job I have no idea what people would think about TAFE, but in terms of content I am well equipped to tell you the differences. TAFE is far more practical, and in my course (accounting) I wouldn't say that it isn't as broad as uni, TAFE wasn't just about bookkeeping, it had many subjects and covered many areas of the accountant: tax, analysis of companies (i.e. for financial advisors), company and commercial law and even covered a bit of marketing, so it is as broad in terms of what it covers as uni. Uni covers alot of theory before actually going in and doing it, where as TAFE goes straight into it. For example in tax @ uni we talk about the tax law, the specific legislation, the nature of the act when talking about capital gains tax where as in TAFE it's this is what CGT actually is, here is an example, now you try. It is not dumbed down at least in the course I did. It just filters out theoretical crap. At the end of the day it probably is all about what piece of paper you get. I don't think most employers would have any idea of the actual content.

 

[FrediKanoute]

I didn't get a good enough enter to get in an accounting course (although I may have scraped in to LaTrobe's commerce but there was a mistake with my preferences sorta but that's another story). So I went through TAFE @ RMIT for 2 years, got an advanced diploma, and managed to get 1.5 years credit for the degree at RMIT.

In terms of getting a job I have no idea what people would think about TAFE, but in terms of content I am well equipped to tell you the differences. TAFE is far more practical, and in my course (accounting) I wouldn't say that it isn't as broad as uni, TAFE wasn't just about bookkeeping, it had many subjects and covered many areas of the accountant: tax, analysis of companies (i.e. for financial advisors), company and commercial law and even covered a bit of marketing, so it is as broad in terms of what it covers as uni. Uni covers alot of theory before actually going in and doing it, where as TAFE goes straight into it. For example in tax @ uni we talk about the tax law, the specific legislation, the nature of the act when talking about capital gains tax where as in TAFE it's this is what CGT actually is, here is an example, now you try. It is not dumbed down at least in the course I did. It just filters out theoretical crap. At the end of the day it probably is all about what piece of paper you get. I don't think most employers would have any idea of the actual content.

So when the fundemental basis of CGT law is changed how would you cope without understanding the theoretical basis? How can you question and evaluate something if you don't understand the manner in which it was formed. Learning is not just about learning how to do something, but also about how to question and analyse as well!

 

[Scotland]

Do people who go to university without doing their TEE/HSC (or not doing well enough) on the back tafe qualifications deserve to do so?

It's all well and good to say 'well I wasn't ready for schooling at 17, I just wanted to do fun subjects and hang out with mates', but that applies to thousands of people at 17. Those who make sacrifices at 16/17 and do the hard work to get into university aren't rewarded enough.

 

[Hap Hapablap]

Do people who go to university without doing their TEE/HSC (or not doing well enough) on the back tafe qualifications deserve to do so?

It's all well and good to say 'well I wasn't ready for schooling at 17, I just wanted to do fun subjects and hang out with mates', but that applies to thousands of people at 17. Those who make sacrifices at 16/17 and do the hard work to get into university aren't rewarded enough.

agreed. actually in a way those who did study tee/hsc/enter have a much greater chance of being selected in a particular course or a job ahead of those who entered uni from tafe. reason is they were able to make a sacrifice at a time where they were meant to be partying it up as a teenager would usually do. employers would also like to see someone that can work under pressure and stress and get out of it successfully eg. Yr 12!

 

[bunsen burner]

This is not true, for example in melbourne if you didn't get your law degree at melbourne then you're looked down upon within the profession.

bollocks.

 

[bunsen burner]

Do people who go to university without doing their TEE/HSC (or not doing well enough) on the back tafe qualifications deserve to do so?

Of course they do.

It's all well and good to say 'well I wasn't ready for schooling at 17, I just wanted to do fun subjects and hang out with mates', but that applies to thousands of people at 17. Those who make sacrifices at 16/17 and do the hard work to get into university aren't rewarded enough.

Dude, that sounds really pathetic.

 

[bunsen burner]

agreed. actually in a way those who did study tee/hsc/enter have a much greater chance of being selected in a particular course or a job ahead of those who entered uni from tafe. reason is they were able to make a sacrifice at a time where they were meant to be partying it up as a teenager would usually do. employers would also like to see someone that can work under pressure and stress and get out of it successfully eg. Yr 12!

Nonsense. A degree is a degree - doesn't matter what the path is to get to uni. You'll find results of your degree, results of psychometric testing, and how you interview are much more important.

 

[nicky]

bollocks.

err ya reckon.

 

[bunsen burner]

err ya reckon.

As much as I dislike Lawyers I think you should at least give them some credit - they aren't stupid. If a law firm is looking at 2 candidates who are experienced lawyers they're hardly going to care where they got their degree at all those years ago. There may be a few elitist firms around who carry these principles but it'd be few and far between.

Life just doesn't work like that anymore.

 

[nicky]

As much as I dislike Lawyers I think you should at least give them some credit - they aren't stupid. If a law firm is looking at 2 candidates who are experienced lawyers they're hardly going to care where they got their degree at all those years ago. There may be a few elitist firms around who carry these principles but it'd be few and far between.

Life just doesn't work like that anymore.

I'm telling you now, barristers who have been practising for 30 years not only want to know you got your degree from melbourne they want to know you went to a good private school too. It's a very elitist profession.

Not just law either.

UK and US employers want to recognise the uni that someone they're thinking of hiring went to. Do you think it stops mattering that someone went to harvard?

 

[bunsen burner]

I'm telling you now, barristers who have been practising for 30 years not only want to know you got your degree from melbourne they want to know you went to a good private school too. It's a very elitist profession.

Not just law either.

UK and US employers want to recognise the uni that someone they're thinking of hiring went to. Do you think it stops mattering that someone went to harvard?

Whilst I do accept that the law professional would be more elitist than most other professions I don't for a second believe that generally across the industry that where you went to uni and what school you went to matters.

If you do the maths it's simply not feasible. Not every law firm is like the firm out of The Firm. Many law firms are started and owned by people who went to public schools and didn't go to Melbourne Uni. And then there's the public sector.

And I highly doubt that there's many firms going around who only hire from GPS/PSA private schools and Melbourne Uni etc. And those ones that have a mix - I doubt when they look at promotions that they place much importance on what uni/school their employee went to. They're most likely going to choose the best man/woman for the job.

 

[nicky]

Whilst I do accept that the law professional would be more elitist than most other professions I don't for a second believe that generally across the industry that where you went to uni and what school you went to matters.

If you do the maths it's simply not feasible. Not every law firm is like the firm out of The Firm. Many law firms are started and owned by people who went to public schools and didn't go to Melbourne Uni. And then there's the public sector.

And I highly doubt that there's many firms going around who only hire from GPS/PSA private schools and Melbourne Uni etc. And those ones that have a mix - I doubt when they look at promotions that they place much importance on what uni/school their employee went to. They're most likely going to choose the best man/woman for the job.

Well of course there are less desirable firms willing to hire non melbourne uni graduates, otherwise other unis wouldn't bother offering law.

(btw i'm not an elitist about university, but i know that some employers are)

 

[bunsen burner]

Do you think it stops mattering that someone went to harvard?

We don't have uni's like Harvard or equivalent over here. We also don't have the elitism that the US and Britain have. And on top of that the elitism in these countries makes for a small sector of the whole industry.

For the most of part of these industries, down the track it doesn't matter. And then go have a look at all the other industries - IT, engineering, Commerce, teaching, nursing etc - it doesn't matter (relatively).

 

[bunsen burner]

Well of course there are less desirable firms willing to hire non melbourne uni graduates, otherwise other unis wouldn't bother offering law.

And I didn't have to do a maths degree at Melbourne uni to work that out

 

[nicky]

We don't have uni's like Harvard or equivalent over here. We also don't have the elitism that the US and Britain have. And on top of that the elitism in these countries makes for a small sector of the whole industry.

For the most of part of these industries, down the track it doesn't matter. And then go have a look at all the other industries - IT, engineering, Commerce, teaching, nursing etc - it doesn't matter (relatively).

Yeah we do, of course we do. No doubt the US have the best uni's followed by the UK however our unis are ranked amongst each other.

General (and obvious) rule: the higher the TER to get into a course, the more favourably future employers will consider your degree.

ps. when is said uk and us employers want to know where u got your degree i was talking about they want to have heard of the aussie university, should they want to hire an aussie.

 

[nicky]

And I didn't have to do a maths degree at Melbourne uni to work that out

some people are naturally smart

 

[materamagic]

Do people who go to university without doing their TEE/HSC (or not doing well enough) on the back tafe qualifications deserve to do so?

It's all well and good to say 'well I wasn't ready for schooling at 17, I just wanted to do fun subjects and hang out with mates', but that applies to thousands of people at 17. Those who make sacrifices at 16/17 and do the hard work to get into university aren't rewarded enough.

Exactly. Students, especially from country areas, see little incentive go to Uni, rack up a huge HELP (appropriately named) debt, sacrifice 3-4 years of earning good money that their mates are making at mines or in the trades,etc.. some doing SFA for over $100,000 a year plus all sorts of bonuses. You got to have a life too. However the friendships and experiences you can gain in the University environment can open up all sorts of opportunities. Life experience is gained either way, and experience is most important in ones working life although good money defiantely fast tracks ones wealth accumulation.

 

[smooking39]

Your looked down in the law community if you dont get a law degree from Melbourne. BS

How about these notable alumni from Monash
Mark Weinberg - Justice of the Federal Court of Australia
Ian Gray - Chief Magistrate, Magistrates' Court of Victoria
Peter Costello - Current Australian Treasurer
Honorable Chief Justice Marilyn Warren, AO Lieutenant-Governor of Victoria
Honourable Justice Christopher Jessup Federal Court
Honourable Justice Anthony Cavanough Supreme court of Victoria
Honour Judge Julian Leckie County Court of Victoria
Honour Judge Jeanette Morrish County Court of Victoria
Honour Judge Paul Grant President of the Children’s Court of Victoria
Honour Judge Susan Pullen County Court of Victoria
Magistrate Luisa Bazzani
Magistrate Marc Sargent
Magistrate Fiona Stewart

 

[Hap Hapablap]

Nonsense. A degree is a degree - doesn't matter what the path is to get to uni. You'll find results of your degree, results of psychometric testing, and how you interview are much more important.

il take your word for it.

 

[Scotland]

Of course they do.

Sure, why work hard at school when you can stuff around and slide in a side door to uni later? Tertiary education standards are already being dumbed down, let's just aid the process further.

Dude, that sounds really pathetic.

What do you propose we tell high school kids then, dude?

Don't do 2 maths, 2 science etc. at school, that's hard. A 3 week bridging course at tafe will give you all the background you need.

 

[FrediKanoute]

Your looked down in the law community if you dont get a law degree from Melbourne. BS

How about these notable alumni from Monash
Mark Weinberg - Justice of the Federal Court of Australia
Ian Gray - Chief Magistrate, Magistrates' Court of Victoria
Peter Costello - Current Australian Treasurer
Honorable Chief Justice Marilyn Warren, AO Lieutenant-Governor of Victoria
Honourable Justice Christopher Jessup Federal Court
Honourable Justice Anthony Cavanough Supreme court of Victoria
Honour Judge Julian Leckie County Court of Victoria
Honour Judge Jeanette Morrish County Court of Victoria
Honour Judge Paul Grant President of the Children’s Court of Victoria
Honour Judge Susan Pullen County Court of Victoria
Magistrate Luisa Bazzani
Magistrate Marc Sargent
Magistrate Fiona Stewart

nuff said i reckon

 

[bunsen burner]

Sure, why work hard at school when you can stuff around and slide in a side door to uni later?

Can you honestly not see how pathetic this statement is?

1. Why are you worried about other people? Shouldn't you focus on yourself?
2. Do you not think mature age students make sacrifices?
3. That's like saying if you don't get drafted in the draft you should never be allowed on an AFL list. Not everyone is ready at 16-17. Why should people be denied?

Clearly you're very young. If you were over 22 you would probaby understand how pathetic this line of thought is.

Tertiary education standards are already being dumbed down, let's just aid the process further.

It could be equally said that uni gets dumbed down by people who aren't naturally intelligent and only got in because they did all their homework and studied their arse off.

I wouldn't be surprised if you fit this category.

What do you propose we tell high school kids then, dude?

Don't do 2 maths, 2 science etc. at school, that's hard. A 3 week bridging course at tafe will give you all the background you need.

What has this got to do with anything?

 

[Mattlowry]

Your looked down in the law community if you dont get a law degree from Melbourne. BS

How about these notable alumni from Monash
Mark Weinberg - Justice of the Federal Court of Australia
Ian Gray - Chief Magistrate, Magistrates' Court of Victoria
Peter Costello - Current Australian Treasurer
Honorable Chief Justice Marilyn Warren, AO Lieutenant-Governor of Victoria
Honourable Justice Christopher Jessup Federal Court
Honourable Justice Anthony Cavanough Supreme court of Victoria
Honour Judge Julian Leckie County Court of Victoria
Honour Judge Jeanette Morrish County Court of Victoria
Honour Judge Paul Grant President of the Children’s Court of Victoria
Honour Judge Susan Pullen County Court of Victoria
Magistrate Luisa Bazzani
Magistrate Marc Sargent
Magistrate Fiona Stewart

Ok firstly I'm just going to say that i went to a public high school and i am currently doing Law/Commerce at La Trobe University so really i would like to agree with Bunsen here but in truth i don't.

Monash University is a poor example though. It is still in the Go8 and is still quite highly regarded in the Law Industry. You are in more trouble if you don't go to Melbourne OR Monash. Try and do that list above using La Trobe Univeristy or even Deakin or Vic Uni who all offer law.

I work on a students careers guide in law and have a lot of contact with HR reps at Law Firms and because of this i have done pretty significant research on the matter. Which is exactly why I will be trying to transfer to Melbourne or Monash come years end.

I have heard people tell me that upon applying for seasonal or articles positions at even mid tier law firms that firm actually recommends that they try and transfer to Melbourne or Monash. I'm not joking here and I'm sure a lot of you will not be surprised.

Going to an elite university will get your foot in the door and i know that for a fact. However how it will affect opportunities once you get into the profession i am not in a position to answer that question as i don't know the facts.

That said I also agree with those that say the university you went to doesn't matter TO AN EXTENT. Lets face it the more highly regarded a university is the harder it is to get there. Meaning the smarter you have to be, the harder you have to work in VCE or at a lower uni in order to transfer. I would like to believe it is for those reasons that people from higher regarded unis are more successful because they show more effort.

I mean if the enter to get into Melbourne for example is 99 and the enter for Deakin is 93 then its far more likely that the quality of students will be higher at Melbourne. Not so much an issue that they went to Melbourne but they are higher quality students.

For what its worth also i do not plan to have a career in Law, i plan to go into the commerce area of my degree, more specifically accounting.

As per the discussion earlier, Commerce and Business are different depending on university. Some universities have both. At La Trobe the Business course is very open ended with something like only 8 compulsory subjects with 16 electives. The Commerce degree however has something like 19 compulsory units with only 5 or so electives and is pretty much a degree in accounting.

At Melbourne their Commerce course is very open ended also, with something like 6 compulsory subjects and 18 electives over the course, meaning you can major in accounting, economics, HR etc.

It really depends on the university and their is no general rule for it. Just make sure you research it before you commit to it as it can mean different things at different universities.