Carlton Youngsters vs. Richmond Youngsters

[Jeremias]

I would expect all 3 to play, Vickery would most likely only rest in the F50, while Jack sits at FF and the Postman at CHF, with Morton as our lead up forward. The other 2 spots will be filled by crumbers/resting midfielders

What about Brad Miller?

 

[Hipster Doofus]

What about Brad Miller?

Coburg

 

[Sin City]

we have another year of development before we challenge for the 8

You're kidding right?

 

[Hipster Doofus]

You're kidding right?

No, give me a reason that after this year of getting the gameplan right and getting more games in the kids we can't challenge for the 8 in 2012

 

[Sin City]

No, give me a reason that after this year of getting the gameplan right and getting more games in the kids we can't challenge for the 8 in 2012

Because your kids and pretty well all players aren't as good as other clubs kids or players who are moving in front or further ahead of you.

 

[Hipster Doofus]

Because your kids and pretty well all players aren't as good as other clubs kids or players who are moving in front or further ahead of you.

It's pretty silly to write off a team to make finals 2 years down the track

Where's your evidence that other clubs kids are better than ours?? We have got miles of development left in the playing group, and it will take a couple of years to start getting the best out of them

 

[Sin City]

It's pretty silly to write off a team to make finals 2 years down the track

Where's your evidence that other clubs kids are better than ours?? We have got miles of development left in the playing group, and it will take a couple of years to start getting the best out of them

Jim, if you honestly think there will only be seven or less clubs ahead of Richmond in the next two years then you're seriously deluded.

 

[Blues_Man]

It's pretty silly to write off a team to make finals 2 years down the track

Where's your evidence that other clubs kids are better than ours?? We have got miles of development left in the playing group, and it will take a couple of years to start getting the best out of them

ahhh gotta love blind faith ...even after getting pumped year after year and fighting out the spoon ....even after getting reamed by the Crows (a team Carlton beat convincingly a week ago) to the tune of 12 goals you still believe the Tigers are a chance for the 8 next year .

I guess it's blind faith that has kept tigers supporters following a club that has been pathetic for the last 30 odd years .

 

[Hipster Doofus]

You fellas gotta lighten up, we'll revist this in 2 years cos right now we gonna have to agree do disagree

 

[Hipster Doofus]

Let me ask you this

In 07 you came 15th with 4 wins yes??

2 years later you were in a final

Richmond wins 6 games to come 15th, including 6 of the last 12

2 years later..........

Explain the difference???

 

[Sin City]

Let me ask you this

In 07 you came 15th with 4 wins yes??

2 years later you were in a final

Richmond wins 6 games to come 15th, including 6 of the last 12

2 years later..........

Explain the difference???

Sure. The difference is Judd, Kreuzer, Yarran, Henderson, Lucas, Robinson, Armfield, Garlett, Joseph, McLean, Warnock, Davies and we've still kept turning the list over. Compare that to what Richmond have done.

 

[Hipster Doofus]

Sure. The difference is Judd, Kreuzer, Yarran, Henderson, Lucas, Robinson, Armfield, Garlett, Joseph, McLean, Warnock, Davies and we've still kept turning the list over. Compare that to what Richmond have done.

Richmond have also turned almost there entire playing list from 2 years ago, cleaned them out. So if in 2 years we make the finals i can say....

The difference is Martin, Griffiths, Vickery, Nason, Webberly, Grigg, Talyor, Houli, Astbury, Dea, Conca, Batchelor, Gourdis and Post

Sounds good dosen't it

The thing is we can't predict as far as 2 years ahead, so to write us off is to as you so commonly say 'delusional'

 

[Sin City]

Richmond have also turned almost there entire playing list from 2 years ago, cleaned them out. So if in 2 years we make the finals i can say....

The difference is Martin, Griffiths, Vickery, Nason, Webberly, Grigg, Talyor, Houli, Astbury, Dea, Conca, Batchelor, Gourdis and Post

Sounds good dosen't it

The thing is we can't predict as far as 2 years ahead, so to write us off is to as you so commonly say 'delusional'

It sounds like the team that got you 15th plus Conca and Batchelor. We already had Gibbs, Murphy, Walker, Carrazzo, Simpson, Waite, Jamison, Bower, Russell, Scotland on the list and all have improved since then so it sounds like you expect Conca and Batchelor to have the same impact as Judd and Kreuzer.

 

[Hipster Doofus]

It sounds like the team that got you 15th plus Conca and Batchelor. We already had Gibbs, Murphy, Walker, Carrazzo, Simpson, Waite, Jamison, Bower, Russell, Scotland on the list and all have improved since then so it sounds like you expect Conca and Batchelor to have the same impact as Judd and Kreuzer.

Well, no, the kids improve, the gameplan becomes more fluent, more kids come in to compete for spots and wallah, we have a sneaky chance of the 8 in 2012

 

[Sin City]

Well, no, the kids improve, the gameplan becomes more fluent, more kids come in to compete for spots and wallah, we have a sneaky chance of the 8 in 2012

As you asked and I pointed out to you, we already had the kids like number one draft picks Murphy and Gibbs and they've improved, we had to add players the calibre of Judd and Kreuzer as well as about ten other players to our best 22 to improve the team. As I said, you're seriously deluded.

 

[Hipster Doofus]

As you asked and I pointed out to you, we already had the kids like number one draft picks Murphy and Gibbs and they've improved, we had to add players the calibre of Judd and Kreuzer as well as about ten other players to our best 22 to improve the team. As I said, you're seriously deluded.

Let's just revist this in 2 years

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

I agree. The tide turns fast and it is often hard to see the signs. Carlton were still getting absolute beltings a couple of years back. The first step is to avoid those beltings, the second step is to reverse some of those losing streaks, then finals, consistency, hardened singlemindedness ... then flag ... hopefully.

 

[Sin City]

Let's just revist this in 2 years

We don't need to, we hear the same stuff from Richmond fans every pre-season, it'll be no different in another two years. We were hearing all the same stuff two years ago as well.

 

[Hipster Doofus]

^^^^^^
I now see why Mods are chosen over the average poster

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

^^^^^^
I now see why Mods are chosen over the average poster

Yes, your simple post in relation to Judd and Carlton a few minutes ago on the main board is testiment to that. I have to wonder whether you really want discussion or just want to be right after that.

Either way, you have no right to bag our posters on our board as this is just going the way of previous threads. I suggest you make your point constructively and move along. You have no mandate to brow beat people into accepting your position.

 

[The Goon]

I agree. The tide turns fast and it is often hard to see the signs. Carlton were still getting absolute beltings a couple of years back. The first step is to avoid those beltings, the second step is to reverse some of those losing streaks, then finals, consistency, hardened singlemindedness ... then flag ... hopefully.

One thing that is being missed in this particular discussion is that you don't need a great or even a good team to make the 8. You only have to be average with a bit better draw/luck/injury run than the other average teams. It's for this very reason that a lot here on BF are (rightly or wrongly) writing off Carlton as potential future Premiers.

Being an average team can mean you're either stagnant, improving or on the decline. On long term averages, you would expect that every year half the teams improve relative to the rest of the competition, and half get worse. Sometimes it's expected by the punters (see Brisbane this year), other times it catches most off guard. As ODN says, the tide can turn fast.

Now seeing as our rebuild only started at the end of '09 the Tigers pretty much bottomed out last year, and I personally expect us to be bottom 4 or thereabouts this season too (I actually had us pencilled in for last in '10 - the fact that the Eagles were even worse than us just supports my point about teams unexpectedly improving or going backwards every year).

Given the massive changes we've made to our list and the fact that we're still playing a bunch of kids very short on game experience, I'd expect we have more potential to improve relative to other teams than most. Sure, some will not make it, but some will be average (all you need to potentially make the 8) and there will be gems. Add to this that Hardwick will definitely continue to turn over the list and you have a recipe for improvement relative to the competition as a whole.

Another factor is that we're playing kids right out of the draft. In a better established team they'd play in the VFL for a couple of seasons, and when they were introduced to the AFL they'd have a lot more experience around them. To me making predictions based on current games on where our players will be in 2012 is pretty foolhardy.

I don't necessarily think we will make the finals in 2012, but to categorically state we won't is making some pretty big assumptions.

 

[Simmonds2Hislop]

As you asked and I pointed out to you, we already had the kids like number one draft picks Murphy and Gibbs and they've improved, we had to add players the calibre of Judd and Kreuzer as well as about ten other players to our best 22 to improve the team. As I said, you're seriously deluded.

This is a pretty weak argument. In the past there have been sides add less talent than Carlton have but have improved far more.

Who did Hawthorn add between their 14th place finish in 2005 and their 6th place finish in 07?

Birchall, Ellis, Guerra.

That's really not hard to match over a couple of drafts, even for Richmond.

 

[mediumsizered]

This is a pretty weak argument. In the past there have been sides add less talent than Carlton have but have improved far more.

Who did Hawthorn add between their 14th place finish in 2005 and their 6th place finish in 07?

Birchall, Ellis, Guerra.

That's really not hard to match over a couple of drafts, even for Richmond.

I think you are forgetting 2 very important players who were already on Hawthorn's list, i.e. Franklin & Roughead, not to mention the significant improvement in Hodge's output & of course the player who delivered the icing on the cake, i.e. Stewie Dew. Who are the Richmond equivalents of these players (we all know that Cotchin has had his first full pre-season & is going to dominate the competition, whilst delivering peace to all countries in the Middle East, curing all cancers & rebuilding the recently earthquake devastated regions of NZ & Japan)?

 

[TOOs_Finest]

I think you are forgetting 2 very important players who were already on Hawthorn's list, i.e. Franklin & Roughead, not to mention the significant improvement in Hodge's output & of course the player who delivered the icing on the cake, i.e. Stewie Dew. Who are the Richmond equivalents of these players (we all know that Cotchin has had his first full pre-season & is going to dominate the competition, whilst delivering peace to all countries in the Middle East, curing all cancers & rebuilding the recently earthquake devastated regions of NZ & Japan)?

I think you just substantiated the point.

Hodge - significant improvement. Read Martin, Deledio or Cotchin. Significant improvement will put them in the Hodge category.
Stewie Dew - I think Rioli would be a better example. Anyone can pick up a Dew, but we have noone even in the pipeline who fits the Rioli mould (explosive small forward). But that has not been our focus in recent drafts, one would assume it will be in the next couple of years
Franklin - I dunno, maybe Jack
Roughead - what did he do in 2006 (2 years prior to their flag)? No more than a Griffiths or a Vickery will do this year I bet. Who knows where they will be in 2 years. For the record, I think Roughy kicked about 10 goals.

Not that I think any of this means a whole lot, we are more than 2 years away from a flag. But the 8 is not out of anyone's reach 2 years down the track. As other teams will also improve, others will also fall. Noone wants to just make the 8

 

[Simmonds2Hislop]

I think you are forgetting 2 very important players who were already on Hawthorn's list, i.e. Franklin & Roughead, not to mention the significant improvement in Hodge's output & of course the player who delivered the icing on the cake, i.e. Stewie Dew. Who are the Richmond equivalents of these players (we all know that Cotchin has had his first full pre-season & is going to dominate the competition, whilst delivering peace to all countries in the Middle East, curing all cancers & rebuilding the recently earthquake devastated regions of NZ & Japan)?

Roughead had shown about as much as Jayden Post at the end of 2005 and was being spoken about as a failed draft pick in the first half of 2007.