So how bad are Melbourne?

[Leeda]

I reckon that if they just stopped being so serious about life, food, handballs, parsnips, (that will confuse some of the younger bloods), and just dropped a few mental bombs, ie that they can truly kick enough goals, and had a bit of fun with the game and the result, then things will happen.

I am truly sad for Melbourne Footy Club and I mean that.

Just steal a few ideas from other clubs and get with it.

 

[Eaglemaniac]

You're doing a spectacular job of missing the point.

You're saying that because some people have failed at a task before (that is, select and develop good players from the draft), that those same people can't be trusted to attempt the same task again. You're giving those people a name, collectively, and the name is "Melbourne".

This is a failure of logic on your part, however, because individuals are the ones who possess (or lack) skills, not collectives. And the individuals who failed to select and develop draft picks for the MFC (Barry Prendergast and a host of 'development coaches') have, without exception, been sacked. They are ALL gone. The people you are now referring to collectively as "Melbourne" are not the same people as those you called "Melbourne" even 18 months ago, and they do not possess the same skills (or lack thereof) as the previous group.

So unless you're trying to claim that no-one in the football industry has the ability to select and develop talent, your observation of previous results at Melbourne bears absolutely no relevance to the likely outcome of future attempts at the club.

TL;DR - your argument is invalid.

Actually its you (and not the club Melbourne that i'm referring to) that is missing the point mate, backed up by the fact you actually agreed in your previous post that the coach would be doing exactly what i had been saying he would, which is probably trade higher picks for more established players because right now Melbourne doesnt need more top end draft picks to squander, it needs to teach the players it has how to win games and build a strong work ethic and culture. If you didnt have a losing culture at Melbourne, the player group wouldnt be in the state it is in. If you cant see that, then there's no point talking to you about it.

 

[autocol]

you actually agreed in your previous post that the coach would be doing exactly what i had been saying he would, which is probably trade higher picks for more established players

If you'd care to explain to me how you can trade top draft picks for established players if you don't have top draft picks, I'd be curious to know how it's done.

 

[LeverPuller]

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/a...draft-selections/story-fni5f91a-1226879331080

Food for thought.

 

[estibador]

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/a...draft-selections/story-fni5f91a-1226879331080

Food for thought.

AFL football operations manager Mark Evans would not debate hypotheticals, but indicated a special assistance selection, if awarded, would not fall in the first round.

Despite what the article claims, it doesn't sound like the AFL are conceding they'll get the first three picks at all.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

Despite what the article claims, it doesn't sound like the AFL are conceding they'll get the first three picks at all.

Do you really expect them to come out and state after round 3 we could get a pre-round 1 PP? Imagine the ridiculous media scrutiny throughout the year if that were the case. He "would not debate hypotheticals" but "indicated" that would be the case? Fact is the Commission will assess things at the end of the year and if we win less than 4 games there will be a compelling case.

 

[daniel_4tw]

Round 3 and we are discussing draft picks again

 

[LeverPuller]

Round 3 and we are discussing draft picks again

Well we are ****ing garbage in case you haven't noticed.

 

[WALDENPOND]

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/a...draft-selections/story-fni5f91a-1226879331080

Food for thought.

Why doesn't the AFL just give Melbourne 6 wins before the season starts. They are running out of ideas of making Melbourne look respectable at the moment.

 

[Martyn_30_]

This is a crucial game for both teams, I can't see the loser being able to make the finals at 0-4

 

[Donakebab]

This is a crucial game for both teams, I can't see the loser being able to make the finals at 0-4

But you can see the winner making it?

 

[autocol]

This is a crucial game for both teams, I can't see the loser being able to make the finals at 0-4

Right now I can't see us making the finals until 3004.

 

[Freomaniac]

NQR = not quite right as in VFL/WAFL/SANFL players who aren't good enough for AFL.

Look I get where people are coming from with the drafting/development stuff but just because we have stuffed up picks/development in the past doesn't mean we should stop trying otherwise we might as well pack up the club. The only way to improve is to get better players on our list - we can do that through either trades or draft - trades we could throw money at players but still need something to offer the other club otherwise they're not going to deal. There are no FA's worth throwing money at this year, Mundy maybe but he's getting on and not sure how much we would really benefit from that. We can trade out players for picks but our list is so poor that 1) most clubs don't what what we would offer and 2) the players other clubs would want we have to hang on to because they are our only good players. We could look to offload some like Trengove or Grimes who have underperformed but their currency would be low at this stage so we probably wouldn't get anything to make it worthwhile ditching them.

So basically our only avenue is through the draft/trading early picks for good players. Based on our performances over the last 2-3 years (let alone the last 7-8 years) I don't see how we don't qualify for a pick assuming we win less than 4 games this year and/or finish last especially considering we have just lost our most talented player (OK he hasn't really played for over a year but still).

1st off im going to say this.... Beggars cant be choosers. I personally dont want Mundy to Leave Freo. He is on the final year of a 4 year contract worth $600,000 a year. Yeah he turns 29 in July. Melbourne would be Stupid not to make an offer to get him. Your club needs all the help it can get. Forget about his age, 2-4 years out of him would help your club by a fair bit and there is no way a gun A-grade player under 26 is going to join your club.

I would advise trading 1-2 fringe players out of the demons 22 even if they are traded for 3rd round picks. If Port of 2011 is anything to go by, Melbourne will keep their top pick, Trade their Priority pick (If they get one) and trade their 2nd round pick, both for Fringe 22 players or guys out of favour of other clubs. Then recruit youth with their 3rd round pick onwards.

I think Paul Roos just discovered how bad the squad is. Roos Has got a history of trading 1st and 2nd round picks for established players. I expect that trend to continue.

 

[Vindicater]

But you can see the winner making it?

I think your sarcasm reader needs some work.

 

[Final Siren]

As 40 year old Richmond supporter, I get annoyed when other clubs go through a few rough years and the supporters start moaning about how hard it is and how their club needs special assistance.

I think, Yeah, come back to me in 25 or 30 years.

But I'm almost ready to make an exception for Melbourne. This is some pretty gruesome stuff. The relentlessness of year after year where the season is over in Round 3 or 4 strikes home with me.

If Roos works, I'll think Melbourne got off lightly, given how they got themselves into this situation, and got a lot of help from the league to get out of it. But if he doesn't... Melbourne supporters should find a good therapist. Ask a Richmond supporter for a referral.

 

[HBF]

But you can see the winner making it?

From a Carlton perspective we won't.
Simply not playing well enough at the moment, but the biggest issue we can't work out what the correct mix of our talls are.
Too many clubs are just better placed than we are right now.

 

[Kramer1]

They have a good coach, they have a supposedly good CEO. They have a reasonable selection of young recruits, and no doubt more good picks to come this year.

Time has a role to play here. It's a three or four year process for Melbourne, not three or four rounds.

And yes...I get the irony of a Carlton supporter stating this at present.

 

[LeverPuller]

As 40 year old Richmond supporter, I get annoyed when other clubs go through a few rough years and the supporters start moaning about how hard it is and how their club needs special assistance.

I think, Yeah, come back to me in 25 or 30 years.

But I'm almost ready to make an exception for Melbourne. This is some pretty gruesome stuff. The relentlessness of year after year where the season is over in Round 3 or 4 strikes home with me.

If Roos works, I'll think Melbourne got off lightly, given how they got themselves into this situation, and got a lot of help from the league to get out of it. But if he doesn't... Melbourne supporters should find a good therapist. Ask a Richmond supporter for a referral.

To put it bluntly, I hope for hope.

I don't hope to win. It's just soul destroying.

Instead now, I hope for the hope of winning. I long for the chance to be in with a shot, to be in front with 5 minutes to play. From there simply the chance to have that hope on a weekly basis.

 

[Kram]

Roos obviously knows what he's doing and as horrific as the start has been it's still only round 4, just got to give it time. Even with a good team it often takes time for a new game plan to gel. There's no reason they can't put up at least a competitive performance against Carlton this weekend. I see that Dawes is back, that's a big plus.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

1st off im going to say this.... Beggars cant be choosers. I personally dont want Mundy to Leave Freo. He is on the final year of a 4 year contract worth $600,000 a year. Yeah he turns 29 in July. Melbourne would be Stupid not to make an offer to get him. Your club needs all the help it can get. Forget about his age, 2-4 years out of him would help your club by a fair bit and there is no way a gun A-grade player under 26 is going to join your club.

I would advise trading 1-2 fringe players out of the demons 22 even if they are traded for 3rd round picks. If Port of 2011 is anything to go by, Melbourne will keep their top pick, Trade their Priority pick (If they get one) and trade their 2nd round pick, both for Fringe 22 players or guys out of favour of other clubs. Then recruit youth with their 3rd round pick onwards.

I think Paul Roos just discovered how bad the squad is. Roos Has got a history of trading 1st and 2nd round picks for established players. I expect that trend to continue.

Yeah fair enough. Te be honest I hadn't really put a lot of thought into Mundy because I only just realised he was on the FA list. No doubt he is a very good player who would improve our list/midfield so I'd definitely consider it if he was willing to come across.

The rest of your post is pretty spot on too although I'd dispute no A-grade player under 26 would come across. Fact is money talks and we should have a lot to throw around, being at that age it also means they don't necessarily have to see that we will be top 4 in the next year or two.

 

[TedDougChris]

Roos obviously knows what he's doing and as horrific as the start has been it's still only round 4, just got to give it time. Even with a good team it often takes time for a new game plan to gel. There's no reason they can't put up at least a competitive performance against Carlton this weekend. I see that Dawes is back, that's a big plus.

Part of the problem for Melbourne supporters (and to a certain extent the media reporting on this) is that this is the rebuild of a rebuild of a rebuild. The supporters have been to the well too many times and are suffering from fatigue. But this is the commencement of a new process, results aren't going to happen in 3 matches. Particularly when you don't have your best 22 available.

Everyone just needs to be patient and watch for signs of improvement. If a few Melbourne players can pick up from Crossy's training habits, or small things like that - then you'll start to see the benefits. But it ain't going to happen overnight.

 

[trickyonne]

It may be soft but they need the extra, they have been anchored to the bottom for what, 7 years now?

That has to change.

 

[TedDougChris]

It may be soft but they need the extra, they have been anchored to the bottom for what, 7 years now?

That has to change.

Give a man a fish - he eats for a day
Teach a man to fish - he eats for a lifetime.

Cannot continue to give them handouts. Give them compensation of Frawley leaves, but not another PP.

 

[TedDougChris]

It may be soft but they need the extra, they have been anchored to the bottom for what, 7 years now?

That has to change.

Forgive me for quoting myself, but it's easier than retyping it all again. From another thread (the Frawley 800K one I think).

However, there is a way to help Melbourne out, that not only encourages them to develop talent, but to also identify it and recruit it.
Instead of first round picks, allow them to extend their list by a few spots (say 46 players instead of 42). Give them an extra 3rd and 4th round pick, plus 2 extra rookies. Encourage an experience talent scout/recruiter (say - Rendell) to work with Melbourne's team and identify young kids that could benefit from a few years on an AFL list. Explain that they need to reduce to a standard list size of 42 by 2019 season start (ie, trim one extra player per year).
This will encourage them to look for the hidden gems in the draft (that most clubs seem to find) and also to look at the rookie draft more closely. So talent identification and recruitment will be improved, hopefully the new coaching/development structure will take care of the rest.
They get no salary cap exemption, the additional players need to fit into the cap - but they get the chance to take a few risks and at the same time, allow them to turn over the current list a little quicker - as they'll have more options to replace the duds with. Help the club with longer term success and development - rather than handouts every 2nd or 3rd year.

 

[Hollow Knight]

Yeah, might be time for the Dogs and Lions to get a go at the high draft picks. We had to rebuild during the expansion drafts, Melbourne priority picks and outrageous Scully compensation, lose 5 first and second round draft picks because we are poor and can't afford development coaches and now we have to get pushed back in the queue again?

How will giving Melbourne prize access to the key talls in the draft make them any better next year? We will be having the exact same discussion in 2015. The Lions and Dogs need forwards too. The AFL will create two more basket cases by perennially trying to help one.

Sure you can give them a high pick to trade for a quality mid from another club, but you are still pushing the other battlers back in the queue, and probably giving a Collingwood or Hawthorn the keys to grab another top 3 draft pick.

We will also probably have to watch the farce of Melbourne actively cashing in Frawley for a compo pick that is massively overs. Pick 2 for Frawley? What a joke.