So how bad are Melbourne?

[nineteen eighty]

I'm not asking for a priority pick. I'm asking for Melbourne not to get one. The odds of that pick changing their fortunes meaningfully next year are very, very small and we will just be having the same discussion again next year. The AFL bought them the most prestigious coach in the land, can we perhaps wait some some for that investment to pay off.



Well we finally got the assistance late last year (too late)... we also had to sell out any democratic say the members had in the makeup of our board to the AFL to get it.

Ah misread. Work getting in the way of me paying attention to posts.

Agree. It's also only three rounds in. People need to take a deep breath and give the team more time to adapt to Roos and his demands on playing style.

 

[Freomaniac]

Comprehension fail. In case you hadn't noticed, I was talking about the upcoming draft. We've already had lesser draft picks in previous years than a team in our finishing position would have otherwise received. Spending a first round pick on a tall that isn't worth a first rounder wont suddenly make them a star. We took the best available at pretty much all our picks as a rebuilding team should.

My point is that pushing us down the queue AGAIN in this draft will likely cost us the chance to get one of the premier talls.

FWIW, we've been trying to get a quality tall for quite some time. We had basically agreed to terms with GWS to get Jesse Hogan until Melbourne did a deal with Gold Coast to get them to pass up Viney so that the Dees could get Hogan as well.

We were frontrunners for Tippett as well until Sydney busted out the COLA.

We also lost Longer 2 years in to the go-home factor and a lack of finances to have a functional football department due to the AFL spending all their resources on setting up our local rival for certain finals footy in their first 4 years.

So yeah Melbourne aren't the only club with problems but they seem to be the only one getting constant assistance. I don't want any special treatment. It would be good for us to get a fair run at the draft at some stage.

Getting the best available player with the 1st round pick, Thats is always the natural thing to do.

Interesting how you have said Brisbane has been begging for a Key position player for the last few years. You guys were doing ok in 2009 when the Lions made finals. Then your mob went all out to get Fev, we all know how that turned out. Then losing 3 experienced players in Richitelli, Brennan and Sherman at the end of 2010 didn't help either. Your team, along with mine has missed on some decent KPPs over the years in Jack Darling and Sam Reid etc so your not the only side to have missed out. It seems your side have chosen poorly with the 2nd and 3rd round picks. Why not develop a KPP with the rookie draft then?

1st off I didnt know that the lions Nearly got Jesse Hogan. I remember they were after Kurt Tippett. Looking at the 5 fellas that bailed out of your club last season, at least your team got a 2nd and 3rd round pick for each of them, which was better than nothing. Ports 1st round pick of 2010 walked out to North after 2 seasons and Port got no compo for it.

Your team might have problems but dont need assistance yet in my opinion manly because they are still competitive. Your team has struggled since 2010 but its not like Brisbane has been as bad as melbourne in the last 4 years.

 

[TedDougChris]

How was the Scully compensation outrageous? He got a $6 million contract.

The compensation was outrageous in that it didn't actually include any assessment of the footballing talent/impact that it had on the departing club, or any assessment of future performance.

The idea that a 20 year old Scully, was worth double a 23 yr old Ward - subsequent club captain and 2 time best and fairest winner for his club - was and is unfathomable.

The criteria set out by the AFL was wrong. I'm not disputing it was applied correctly in the above cases, but the criteria itself was wrong.

That's not to blame Melbourne for this, this is an AFL failing that they have not acknowledged in any way.

 

[wowlace]

Don't be silly. They were completely exonerated of tanking, and were subsequently fined half a million dollars and had staff suspended for not-tanking.

This guy.

 

[wowlace]

Yeah, and my point is that the rules are s**t and having a deleterious effect on the integrity of the competition.

The ability to sign a free agent without trading anything means that many clubs will be happy to pay overs for Frawley. The whole system is set up to be gamed.

Thread is about how bad Melbourne is, not how bad the rules are.

 

[wowlace]

The compensation was outrageous in that it didn't actually include any assessment of the footballing talent/impact that it had on the departing club, or any assessment of future performance.

The idea that a 20 year old Scully, was worth double a 23 yr old Ward - subsequent club captain and 2 time best and fairest winner for his club - was and is unfathomable.

The criteria set out by the AFL was wrong. I'm not disputing it was applied correctly in the above cases, but the criteria itself was wrong.

That's not to blame Melbourne for this, this is an AFL failing that they have not acknowledged in any way.

Yep, you guys got ****ed.

 

[Freomaniac]

The compensation was outrageous in that it didn't actually include any assessment of the footballing talent/impact that it had on the departing club, or any assessment of future performance.

The idea that a 20 year old Scully, was worth double a 23 yr old Ward - subsequent club captain and 2 time best and fairest winner for his club - was and is unfathomable.

The criteria set out by the AFL was wrong. I'm not disputing it was applied correctly in the above cases, but the criteria itself was wrong.

That's not to blame Melbourne for this, this is an AFL failing that they have not acknowledged in any way.

I see your point. A 23 year old Callan Ward had shown in his 60 odd games in 4 years than a tom Scully in his 30 games in 2 years with Melbourne. Its weird as Callan Ward was only offered $800,000 a year for 5 years while Scully was given 6 million over 6 years.

I was slightly bitter with the Palmer trade as Freo got a late 1st round/Early 2nd round pick compo for someone that played 53 games in 4 seasons. Happy to get crozier. Yet the crows got a mid 1st round pick for losing Phil Davis who played 18 games in 3 years.

 

[TedDougChris]

What is this "continue" to give them handouts? We've had PP's same as every other club was entitled to based on their performances however since we've been down the bottom (i.e. since 2007) we've had TWO PP's - 2008 pick 17 (Blease) and 2009 pick 1 (Scully). We got a financial bailout last year to restructure our FD following the diabolical work of Schwab/Neeld. On-field however I'm not sure what these handouts are that you are referring?

Also if we get a compo pick for Frawley that does nothing to improve our situation (in fact we'll be worse off if another senior player leaves). The two issues must be seen as exclusive of one another as a compensation pick for losing a FA is precisely that whereas a PP is an equalisation measure used to assist clubs with continued on-field poor performance. Losing a senior player and receiving a pick back (which all other clubs would be entitled to and have received) does nothing to change the situation of our on-field performance. Don't forget we have also lost Clark, our most talented player by a stretch which would surely have to be taken into account when assessing the merits of a PP. In fact if I recall it was one of the arguments used against granting us one last year, i.e. that Clark had been injured and would return which would improve our on-field performance.

I genuinely hope this is all academic and by season's end we have shown enough improvement individually and collectively that we won't need to worry about this. However if things do not improve and we win less than 4 games for the 3rd year running and for the 5th time in 7 years (in the 8th year - 2007 - we won only 5) I genuinely cannot understand how anyone could logically argue against it.

Sorry if poorly worded. If you read through my previous posts on this and the Frawley subject, you'll see I have no issues with Melbourne getting pick#2 (for example) for Frawley.

But you have had the AFL appoint and pay for your coach, your CEO and other appointments, as well as the priority picks and unrealistic compensation for Scully (again, an AFL issue - not Melbourne's fault) - you can understand why in an era with a ridiculous number of compromised drafts - that clubs and supporters are getting a bit fed up with it.

No-one is arguing that you need assistance and should continue to get it (well, most right thinking people aren't), but as posted earlier, there are other ways to help that don't impact on EVERY OTHER CLUB that is trying to rebuild at the same time. Because your club isn't the only club with issues right now. But at this point in time, you actually need to see if the changes and plan Roos has implemented will actually work. It's been 3 matches, most played with an understrength lineup. That's is not enough data to analyse whether you need more help. Some of your supporter base (again, not fair to tar all with the same brush) already seem to be campaigning for a first round PP.

After last year, you could clearly make the case that the Lions needed help, as TheBrownDog has suggested - but there was no AFL rescue package for them. Melbourne need to set a course and try to stick to it. If it becomes obvious that more assistance is needed - in another few years, I'm sure you will get it.

 

[TedDougChris]

Yep, you guys got ******.

Not blaming you guys for taking it, but the discrepency in compensation has set back our rebuild period unfortunately. And when some people perceive that Melbourne are putting their hands out again, they get a little frustrated looking at the opportunities they have lost out on (for example - Cameron, Patton and Boyd at the Saints, Dogs and Lions would make for a much more interesting and even competition) due to the AFL stupidity, tanking and expansion teams.

 

[Catastic82]

How many years do the Dees need special assistance from the AFL(PP,coach pay, CEO ect) before it gets to stage that it's terminal.

I agree Dogs and Lions deserve more picks and assistance as they actually are competitive and have a sound club.

Melbourne really are pathetic in everything they do, getting the AFL to pay a king's sum to a Coach that only signs on for 2 years and doesn't even bother to turn up for pre season training just screams to me they will never learn.

 

[TedDougChris]

I see your point. A 23 year old Callan Ward had shown in his 60 odd games in 4 years than a tom Scully in his 30 games in 2 years with Melbourne. Its weird as Callan Ward was only offered $800,000 a year for 5 years while Scully was given 6 million over 6 years.

I was slightly bitter with the Palmer trade as Freo got a late 1st round/Early 2nd round pick compo for someone that played 53 games in 4 seasons. Happy to get crozier. Yet the crows got a mid 1st round pick for losing Phil Davis who played 18 games in 3 years.

We understand how the compensation was applied, but it was poorly implemented and planned - like so much in the AFL.

As any person who has worked in process control will know, you need a feed-forward component and a feed-back component to achieve a good result. The feedback (actually performance for the new club, honours etc) was clearly missing on this occasion.

 

[TedDougChris]

Getting the best available player with the 1st round pick, Thats is always the natural thing to do.

Interesting how you have said Brisbane has been begging for a Key position player for the last few years. You guys were doing ok in 2009 when the Lions made finals. Then your mob went all out to get Fev, we all know how that turned out. Then losing 3 experienced players in Richitelli, Brennan and Sherman at the end of 2010 didn't help either. Your team, along with mine has missed on some decent KPPs over the years in Jack Darling and Sam Reid etc so your not the only side to have missed out. It seems your side have chosen poorly with the 2nd and 3rd round picks. Why not develop a KPP with the rookie draft then?

1st off I didnt know that the lions Nearly got Jesse Hogan. I remember they were after Kurt Tippett. Looking at the 5 fellas that bailed out of your club last season, at least your team got a 2nd and 3rd round pick for each of them, which was better than nothing. Ports 1st round pick of 2010 walked out to North after 2 seasons and Port got no compo for it.

Your team might have problems but dont need assistance yet in my opinion manly because they are still competitive. Your team has struggled since 2010 but its not like Brisbane has been as bad as melbourne in the last 4 years.

it doesn't take much to derail a team. We lost Ward, then recruited a very similar replacement the year he left (Smith). Now Smith has been excellent, but a midfield of Ward, Libba, Griff, plus Macrae etc would be much better. Particularly if we'd been able to turn our Smith pick - into a Darling (not sure if in the same draft or not, but you get the idea). Or a really quick midfield runner, ala Rioli, Jetta etc.

Just to give you a really far out hypothetical - imagine if Hawthorn didn't get a PP in 2004. They would have deserved one in 2005 for two years with 5 or less wins, but not for 2004.

Draft order would have been: Rich, Dogs, Rich, Hawthorn, Dogs
Delidio, Griffen, Tambling, Roughead, Franklin ?????

Imagine how that could have panned out. There are a number of teams crying out for a KPF. Dogs, Saints, Lions, Carlton to name a couple.

 

[Freomaniac]

it doesn't take much to derail a team. We lost Ward, then recruited a very similar replacement the year he left (Smith). Now Smith has been excellent, but a midfield of Ward, Libba, Griff, plus Macrae etc would be much better. Particularly if we'd been able to turn our Smith pick - into a Darling (not sure if in the same draft or not, but you get the idea). Or a really quick midfield runner, ala Rioli, Jetta etc.

Just to give you a really far out hypothetical - imagine if Hawthorn didn't get a PP in 2004. They would have deserved one in 2005 for two years with 5 or less wins, but not for 2004.

Draft order would have been: Rich, Dogs, Rich, Hawthorn, Dogs
Delidio, Griffen, Tambling, Roughead, Franklin ?????

Imagine how that could have panned out. There are a number of teams crying out for a KPF. Dogs, Saints, Lions, Carlton to name a couple.

Well you guys lost Harbrow to the Gold Coast as well. He is a Queenlander anyway so it was natural for him to play for a team in his home state. Im certain if I asked any Bulldogs fan on who was the bigger loss between Ward and Habrow, Ward would be the bigger loss.

I was just mesmerized that Melbourne got 2 1st round picks as compo when he went to GWS. Some people thought he was going to be the next Chris Judd. Personally, I didnt see anything special about Scully, I just thought he was going to be like Travis Johnstone or Bryce Gibbs as previous number 1 picks that just have a solid 10-12 year career.

 

[TedDougChris]

Well you guys lost Harbrow to the Gold Coast as well. He is a Queenlander anyway so it was natural for him to play for a team in his home state. Im certain if I asked any Bulldogs fan on who was the bigger loss between Ward and Habrow, Ward would be the bigger loss.

I was just mesmerized that Melbourne got 2 1st round picks as compo when he went to GWS. Some people thought he was going to be the next Chris Judd. Personally, I didnt see anything special about Scully, I just thought he was going to be like Travis Johnstone or Bryce Gibbs as previous number 1 picks that just have a solid 10-12 year career.

Adelaide were also harshly done by, losing two KPD's in successive years...

 

[Freomaniac]

Adelaide were also harshly done by, losing two KPD's in successive years...

I can debate that one too. But they were fortunate in some ways.

Matt Rendell who was at the Crows as a scout/Recruiter from 2007-2011, did some smart Recruiting.

When Bock left at the end of 2010, he went to the Suns I reckon he knew that oncestayed at the crows, the younger guys would of took his spot. Yet they still had a veteran in Rutten, Phil Davis was in his 2nd year and Talia was recruited the year before.

Davis left at the end of 2011 but Fortunately for the crows, Talia became a very good defender since 2012. You look at the crows key defender stocks, Rutten Will probably retire this season. Talia will take one key defensive post. As for the other key defender spot, Luke Thompson, Sam Shaw and Kyle Hartigan are all aged 22/23 years old are fighting for that 1 spot.

Now you compare that to Melbournes key defenders: Garland, Mcdonald and Frawley. Frawley is the best out of the 3 and might leave, McDonald is an important cog. Garland is better than nothing even though he is only 190cm.

Another Matt Rendell suggestion was getting Josh Jenkins from Essendons rookie list incase Kurt Tippet left. They traded pick 31 for Jenkins and Pick 41.

Again compare to the demons forward line, Mitch Clake is sadly gone. Chris Dawes an ok 30-35 goal a season forward. Hogan is apparently good and he needs to play.

Crows did some good recruiting/list management from 2007-2011. Sure the crows did lose picks in the Tippet Scandal but their playing squad is vastly superior to Melbournes and the crows will get at least 8-10 wins.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

The compensation was outrageous in that it didn't actually include any assessment of the footballing talent/impact that it had on the departing club, or any assessment of future performance.

It did though, it took into account Scully was a number 1 draft pick only two years prior. I agree the Dogs were screwed with the award compo but the Scully compo was correct based on the formula.

 

[TedDougChris]

It did though, it took into account Scully was a number 1 draft pick only two years prior. I agree the Dogs were screwed with the award compo but the Scully compo was correct based on the formula.

Agreed, I've added some thoughts elsewhere on this subject - but you are correct. According to the guidelines, the compensation was correct.

We all know in reality it was bollocks, but anyway....

 

[Marmozet]

It's looking like it's going to be a very,very long turn around for this football club. Kind of do feel for them. A question somewhere on afl.com was raised during the week. How many Melbourne players could get a game at Hawthorn? Only Nathan Jones. Have to say I agree with that one.

They won just two games last year and they seem to only be getting worse, looks like they'll be winning a very similar number of games in 2014.

Round 20 Hawthorn vs Melbourne at MCG - Saturday August 9 4:40pm - Saw VII

 

[wowlace]

It's looking like it's going to be a very,very long turn around for this football club. Kind of do feel for them. A question somewhere on afl.com was raised during the week. How many Melbourne players could get a game at Hawthorn? Only Nathan Jones. Have to say I agree with that one.

They won just two games last year and they seem to only be getting worse, looks like they'll be winning a very similar number of games in 2014.

Round 20 Hawthorn vs Melbourne at MCG - Saturday August 9 4:40pm - Saw VII

So.... when Hawthorn pick up Frawley is he gonna play VFL?

 

[Marmozet]

So.... when Hawthorn pick up Frawley is he gonna play VFL?

When that article on afl.com.au said only Nathan Jones, no other players really came to my mind. If Frawley is as likely to move to Hawthorn as being made out to be, maybe they specifically meant players likely to stick around at Melbourne, Jones being that sort of player because he's now a captain.

 

[denicat]

Would love to know what club has had the most top 10 picks is it melb?

 

[LeverPuller]

Would love to know what club has had the most top 10 picks is it melb?

I would think Richmond are most likely.

 

[IanW]

The thing thats frustrating about Melbourne is that you get the list of all those things people say you should do when you're crap ... and they've done them.

 

[Fat Tony!]

It is so ironic that a Lions and a Bulldogs supporter are so opposed to priority picks/FA compensation. Both clubs have such little chance of success in a Free Agency environment and are ultimately just slightly better feeder clubs than Melbourne.

 

[Whit3y]

when jordie mckenzie can get a game, you know there in a bad way