So how bad are Melbourne?

[LeverPuller]

If Melbourne go 0-22 it'll happen. No doubt about it.

 

[ioppolo]

If Melbourne go 0-22 they can fold and bugger off for all I care.

 

[Cudi_420]

Yeah, might be time for the Dogs and Lions to get a go at the high draft picks. We had to rebuild during the expansion drafts, Melbourne priority picks and outrageous Scully compensation, lose 5 first and second round draft picks because we are poor and can't afford development coaches and now we have to get pushed back in the queue again?

How will giving Melbourne prize access to the key talls in the draft make them any better next year? We will be having the exact same discussion in 2015. The Lions and Dogs need forwards too. The AFL will create two more basket cases by perennially trying to help one.

Sure you can give them a high pick to trade for a quality mid from another club, but you are still pushing the other battlers back in the queue, and probably giving a Collingwood or Hawthorn the keys to grab another top 3 draft pick.

We will also probably have to watch the farce of Melbourne actively cashing in Frawley for a compo pick that is massively overs. Pick 2 for Frawley? What a joke.

How was the Scully compensation outrageous? He got a $6 million contract.

 

[Hollow Knight]

How was the Scully compensation outrageous? He got a $6 million contract.

Outrageous market-distorting contract led to outrageous compensation. Simple.

 

[Cudi_420]

Outrageous market-distorting contract led to outrageous compensation. Simple.

So the compensation wasn't outrageous. It was inline with Scully's market worth.

 

[Stratton_Gun]

Not to mention they tanked to get him in the first place

 

[Hollow Knight]

So the compensation wasn't outrageous. It was inline with Scully's market worth.

Disagree. Firstly you're blindly assuming that the compensation to player worth criteria is perfect. I disagree. In fact, that is kinda the essence of my point.

Secondly, I think it's fair to say that "market worth" was distorted by GWS's inflated salary cap and ability to sign a player without trading for him.

 

[The Prosecutor]

Yeah, might be time for the Dogs and Lions to get a go at the high draft picks. We had to rebuild during the expansion drafts, Melbourne priority picks and outrageous Scully compensation, lose 5 first and second round draft picks because we are poor and can't afford development coaches and now we have to get pushed back in the queue again?

How will giving Melbourne prize access to the key talls in the draft make them any better next year? We will be having the exact same discussion in 2015. The Lions and Dogs need forwards too. The AFL will create two more basket cases by perennially trying to help one.

Sure you can give them a high pick to trade for a quality mid from another club, but you are still pushing the other battlers back in the queue, and probably giving a Collingwood or Hawthorn the keys to grab another top 3 draft pick.

We will also probably have to watch the farce of Melbourne actively cashing in Frawley for a compo pick that is massively overs. Pick 2 for Frawley? What a joke.

Oh come on, to blame the AFL for your lack of a decent young KPF is crap.

Since Henderson back in 2007, you've only used one first-round pick on a tall, that being a ruckman in Longer.

That's your recruiters fault, not the AFL's.

 

[Hollow Knight]

Not to mention they tanked to get him in the first place

Don't be silly. They were completely exonerated of tanking, and were subsequently fined half a million dollars and had staff suspended for not-tanking.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

Give a man a fish - he eats for a day
Teach a man to fish - he eats for a lifetime.

Cannot continue to give them handouts. Give them compensation of Frawley leaves, but not another PP.

What is this "continue" to give them handouts? We've had PP's same as every other club was entitled to based on their performances however since we've been down the bottom (i.e. since 2007) we've had TWO PP's - 2008 pick 17 (Blease) and 2009 pick 1 (Scully). We got a financial bailout last year to restructure our FD following the diabolical work of Schwab/Neeld. On-field however I'm not sure what these handouts are that you are referring?

Also if we get a compo pick for Frawley that does nothing to improve our situation (in fact we'll be worse off if another senior player leaves). The two issues must be seen as exclusive of one another as a compensation pick for losing a FA is precisely that whereas a PP is an equalisation measure used to assist clubs with continued on-field poor performance. Losing a senior player and receiving a pick back (which all other clubs would be entitled to and have received) does nothing to change the situation of our on-field performance. Don't forget we have also lost Clark, our most talented player by a stretch which would surely have to be taken into account when assessing the merits of a PP. In fact if I recall it was one of the arguments used against granting us one last year, i.e. that Clark had been injured and would return which would improve our on-field performance.

I genuinely hope this is all academic and by season's end we have shown enough improvement individually and collectively that we won't need to worry about this. However if things do not improve and we win less than 4 games for the 3rd year running and for the 5th time in 7 years (in the 8th year - 2007 - we won only 5) I genuinely cannot understand how anyone could logically argue against it.

 

[Final Siren]

So the compensation wasn't outrageous. It was inline with Scully's market worth.

It's not a true market, though, when there's a new club given a list full of teenagers, a $10 million salary cap, and told they have to spend at least 92.5% of it. That's a highly artificial situation.

 

[Hollow Knight]

Oh come on, to blame the AFL for your lack of a decent young KPF is crap.

Since Henderson back in 2007, you've only used one first-round pick on a tall, that being a ruckman in Longer.

That's your recruiters fault, not the AFL's.

Comprehension fail. In case you hadn't noticed, I was talking about the upcoming draft. We've already had lesser draft picks in previous years than a team in our finishing position would have otherwise received. Spending a first round pick on a tall that isn't worth a first rounder wont suddenly make them a star. We took the best available at pretty much all our picks as a rebuilding team should.

My point is that pushing us down the queue AGAIN in this draft will likely cost us the chance to get one of the premier talls.

FWIW, we've been trying to get a quality tall for quite some time. We had basically agreed to terms with GWS to get Jesse Hogan until Melbourne did a deal with Gold Coast to get them to pass up Viney so that the Dees could get Hogan as well.

We were frontrunners for Tippett as well until Sydney busted out the COLA.

We also lost Longer 2 years in to the go-home factor and a lack of finances to have a functional football department due to the AFL spending all their resources on setting up our local rival for certain finals footy in their first 4 years.

So yeah Melbourne aren't the only club with problems but they seem to be the only one getting constant assistance. I don't want any special treatment. It would be good for us to get a fair run at the draft at some stage.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

Yeah, might be time for the Dogs and Lions to get a go at the high draft picks. We had to rebuild during the expansion drafts,

Melbourne also had to rebuild during the expansion drafts. Two years running we had a number 5 draft pick bumped down to pick 12.

Melbourne priority picks

We received priority picks because we were crap, same as every other club in our position had for more than 10 years. Every club was working to the same formula and had access to the same PP's if they qualified as we did. If anything we were disadvanatged by the changes to the PP rules as we would have had access to Naitanui instead of Blease in 2008.

and outrageous Scully compensation,

Again, the Scully compensation was calculated via a formula that was transparent and applied equally to the entire competition. It's not our fault GWS decided to throw a $6m contract at a no. 1 pick only 2 years into the system. If any other club had a player poached in similar circumstances they would have received the same compo. The market was not distorted by GWS because every club was subject to the same circumstances, GWS did not have to poach a player from Melbourne which awarded us that compensation it could have been any club.

lose 5 first and second round draft picks because we are poor and can't afford development coaches and now we have to get pushed back in the queue again?

In recent years Melbourne has lost Petterd, Bate, Morton, Maric, Scully, Gysberts & Cook who were all picked inside the top 21. These players all lerft for various reasons (mostly because they were crap and we wanted to get rid of them) buy the effect on our club was felt just as bad as the players walking out on Brisbane.

How will giving Melbourne prize access to the key talls in the draft make them any better next year? We will be having the exact same discussion in 2015. The Lions and Dogs need forwards too. The AFL will create two more basket cases by perennially trying to help one.

The argument is to provide Melbourne with a PP which we will almost certainly look to trade for a developed player as we did last year trading out pick 2 for Tyson and pick 9. Melbourne will likely have the no. 1 pick regardless so the Lions and Dogs will miss out on the best KPP player anyway, although the situation is clearly unrelated anyway. When the Bulldogs and Brisbane put together multiple seasons of 2, 3 or 4 wins and bottom 2 finishes I will be happy to argue that they should also be assisted with a PP, however currently their situations are not comparable to Melbourne's situation.

Sure you can give them a high pick to trade for a quality mid from another club, but you are still pushing the other battlers back in the queue, and probably giving a Collingwood or Hawthorn the keys to grab another top 3 draft pick.

You mean like last year when we traded our no. 2 pick to wooden spooner GWS? If the Lions or Bulldogs have a player Melbourne is interested in and they are willing to part with them for a top 3 pick then we will consider it. No club would be given preference over another it will come down to what benefit Melbourne is able to get out of that pick.

We will also probably have to watch the farce of Melbourne actively cashing in Frawley for a compo pick that is massively overs. Pick 2 for Frawley? What a joke.

You don't understand FA do you? Whether Frawley leaves or not is completely out of Melbourne's hands, we cannot "cash him out" for pick 2 and most Melbourne supporters and I'm sure the club itself would rather keep him regardless of what compensation we would get for him. Obviously we're not going to pay him stupid money though, we will offer him what we think he is worth to the club.

 

[Easy Slips Catch]

Bad is the wrong word. Pathetic is more apt. All clubs have down times. Only Melbourne consistently fly the white flag and beg for handouts.

Get rid of em.

 

[nineteen eighty]

As 40 year old Richmond supporter, I get annoyed when other clubs go through a few rough years and the supporters start moaning about how hard it is and how their club needs special assistance.

I think, Yeah, come back to me in 25 or 30 years.

But I'm almost ready to make an exception for Melbourne. This is some pretty gruesome stuff. The relentlessness of year after year where the season is over in Round 3 or 4 strikes home with me.

If Roos works, I'll think Melbourne got off lightly, given how they got themselves into this situation, and got a lot of help from the league to get out of it. But if he doesn't... Melbourne supporters should find a good therapist. Ask a Richmond supporter for a referral.

Agree with all your points. We have put up with a lot of s**t for a long time with little to no assistance. Annoys me no end to hear teams going on about assistance. However, like you, I'm almost at that point where I also feel Melbourne are a special case. Note how I said almost.

Reason being that we are only three rounds into the season with Roos at the helm. Remember Hardwick's first half of his first season. The team was learning from scratch how to play his game style and we were losing week in, week out. I still remember the BF threads amongst other footy chatter as to how bad we were (worst team since Fitzroy just prior to merger).

I think any discussions around priority picks and special assistance need to be parked until at least two thirds of the way through the season. The players will then have had time to adjust to what Roos is asking of them. He is starting from an enourmously low base in terms of getting the Dees to play competitive footy. It doesn't happen over one preseason and three games for the players to pick it up.

 

[nineteen eighty]

Part of the problem for Melbourne supporters (and to a certain extent the media reporting on this) is that this is the rebuild of a rebuild of a rebuild. The supporters have been to the well too many times and are suffering from fatigue. But this is the commencement of a new process, results aren't going to happen in 3 matches. Particularly when you don't have your best 22 available.

Everyone just needs to be patient and watch for signs of improvement. If a few Melbourne players can pick up from Crossy's training habits, or small things like that - then you'll start to see the benefits. But it ain't going to happen overnight.

Oh we're from Tigerland...

Welcome to the Tiges world. Promising signs this time around but FFS it's hard work as a supporter having to go through this over and over and over again.

All of your points are very true. At least they have a tried and tested coach in place. He's not the messiah...but he does know where he wants to take them and how to get there.

 

[Hollow Knight]

Again, the Scully compensation was calculated via a formula that was transparent and applied equally to the entire competition. It's not our fault GWS decided to throw a $6m contract at a no. 1 pick only 2 years into the system.

Gees you are solipsistic. I didn't say it was Melbourne's fault. I am frustrated at the the AFL's policies.

In recent years Melbourne has lost Petterd, Bate, Morton, Maric, Scully, Gysberts & Cook who were all picked inside the top 21. These players all left for various reasons (mostly because they were crap and we wanted to get rid of them) buy the effect on our club was felt just as bad as the players walking out on Brisbane.

Yeah most were crap, not sure that is the case with the players we lost (except Karnezis). And again, I sympathsie, but again, you aren't the only club with problems.

You mean like last year when we traded our no. 2 pick to wooden spooner GWS? If the Lions or Bulldogs have a player Melbourne is interested in and they are willing to part with them for a top 3 pick then we will consider it.

This is where you can't get past your solipsism again. In your hypothetical above we would have to weaken ourselves and strengthen you by giving up a valuable player just to trade into the draft position that would have been ours anyway if we weren't pushed down the order again on account of you getting extra assistance again. What a great result for the competition... the 17th team having to give up a star player to the 18th team just to get the draft pick that should be rightfully their's anyway.

You don't understand FA do you? Whether Frawley leaves or not is completely out of Melbourne's hands, we cannot "cash him out" for pick 2 and most Melbourne supporters and I'm sure the club itself would rather keep him regardless of what compensation we would get for him. Obviously we're not going to pay him stupid money though, we will offer him what we think he is worth to the club.

No, I get free agency just fine. It is quite obvious that if Frawley is getting offers of 800k from other clubs that Melbourne could be very well overcompensated and will be very tempted to not put up a fight for him and just let the other clubs have a bidding war. Again, printing another high draft pick and pushing us down the order again. A farcical situation. No doubt that will result in free agency compensation finally being scrapped for the future.

In short, stop interpreting it all as an attack on Melbourne. The issue is how many other club's will continually be disadvantaged by the AFL's insistence on helping you with your issues as the expense of everyone else.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

We will also probably have to watch the farce of Melbourne actively cashing in Frawley for a compo pick that is massively overs. Pick 2 for Frawley? What a joke.

Thems the rules. Pretty simple to avoid that compo. 17 clubs have to refuse to pay Frawley more than hes worth. If one of them pays 800k then thems the breaks. Thats what hes worth by definition if just one club pays it.

No drama with Melbourne getting compensation if some club is stupid enough to pay overs for one of their players.

Its the same as Collingwood getting more compo for Thomas than Hawks got for Frankling. We finished lower on the ladder and its based on that, just as the draft is. It doesnt mean Thomas is considered a better player than Franklin though.

 

[Hollow Knight]

Thems the rules..

Yeah, and my point is that the rules are s**t and having a deleterious effect on the integrity of the competition.

The ability to sign a free agent without trading anything means that many clubs will be happy to pay overs for Frawley. The whole system is set up to be gamed.

 

[nineteen eighty]

Yeah, might be time for the Dogs and Lions to get a go at the high draft picks. We had to rebuild during the expansion drafts, Melbourne priority picks and outrageous Scully compensation, lose 5 first and second round draft picks because we are poor and can't afford development coaches and now we have to get pushed back in the queue again?

How will giving Melbourne prize access to the key talls in the draft make them any better next year? We will be having the exact same discussion in 2015. The Lions and Dogs need forwards too. The AFL will create two more basket cases by perennially trying to help one.

Sure you can give them a high pick to trade for a quality mid from another club, but you are still pushing the other battlers back in the queue, and probably giving a Collingwood or Hawthorn the keys to grab another top 3 draft pick.

We will also probably have to watch the farce of Melbourne actively cashing in Frawley for a compo pick that is massively overs. Pick 2 for Frawley? What a joke.

So did the Tiges BD. And we were coming off an enormously low base. Our list no doubt would have been stronger if we had access to higher picks.

Brisbane have also come off three premierships. I understand living in Sydney that it's not healthy for the competition (within their own markets) if interstate teams are not competitive. I'm just extremely hesitant at this point in time, to be talking about handing out priority picks and the like.

I would be happy for special assistance to be provided whereby you could bolster your coaching staff. Development coaches are key in all of this so hand over a few dollars to get them on board working with your kids.

 

[Hollow Knight]

Brisbane have also come off three premierships. I understand living in Sydney that it's not healthy for the competition (within their own markets) if interstate teams are not competitive. I'm just extremely hesitant at this point in time, to be talking about handing out priority picks and the like.

I'm not asking for a priority pick. I'm asking for Melbourne not to get one. The odds of that pick changing their fortunes meaningfully next year are very, very small and we will just be having the same discussion again next year. The AFL bought them the most prestigious coach in the land, can we perhaps wait some some for that investment to pay off.

I would be happy for special assistance to be provided whereby you could bolster your coaching staff. Development coaches are key in all of this so hand over a few dollars to get them on board working with your kids.

Well we finally got the assistance late last year (too late)... we also had to sell out any democratic say the members had in the makeup of our board to the AFL to get it.

 

[go_the_dockers]

Melbourne have the worst development and recruitment staff in the competition, they had incompetent an CEO and Jackson should be able to improve them a lot.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Yeah, and my point is that the rules are s**t and having a deleterious effect on the integrity of the competition.

The ability to sign a free agent without trading anything means that many clubs will be happy to pay overs for Frawley. The whole system is set up to be gamed.

The rules are consistent with the socialist policies of the draft and the salary cap. They are designed to even up the competition in the medium and long run. If you disagree with socialist policies to protect the weak thats fine but dont forget your own club was given salary cap concessions to assist it along the way for what basially amounts to promotional reasons.....to promote a club in a growth area above and beyond what it could afford to do itself. Same thing for the Swans and the other startup clubs.

I dont have a problem with any of it...especially now the priorty pick has been all but abolished and is now on an "on application only" basis.

 

[Hollow Knight]

The rules are consistent with the socialist policies of the draft and the salary cap.

Bit binary in your thinking TfT. It's possible to agree with the philosophical principles but not necessarily the way they are applied. This is my point.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Bit binary in your thinking TfT. It's possible to agree with the philosophical principles but not necessarily the way they are applied. This is my point.

These rules are applies EXACTLY the same way the draft is applied. Max compensation = first round pick. The pick of course will be a function of your ladder position.