Who will abide by the tribunal decision

[Argy]

The rules are "to the comfortable satisfaction of the tribunal" or words to that effect. Personally, I trust the tribunal members to make a valid interpretation of that.

The tribunal can only make a decision on what is before them - which is TB4.

Based on Jobe Watson's confession regarding other prohibited drugs, a negative finding by the tribunal will probably not convince me that EFC did not cheat (even though I want closure as much as anyone).

I am also concerned that the penalty might be contrived even if the tribunal find the players guilty. Given the penalties handed out to athletes like Saad, et al, I doubt I would be convinced that anything less than a year of actual suspension (not including backdating, etc) would be reasonable.

 

[evo]

You haven't noticed he often posts about how Middleton erred in his findings against James?

I have Merty. But I also know fish. He considers himself well to the right hand side of the Bell Curve.

That's ok though, I consider myself there too.

 

[Keys]

I don't believe anyone at Essendon embarked on this program thinking they were going to use banned substances and it was never their intention to cheat per se. Yes, even dank.

Dank was too clever by half though and operated in the grey areas of the WADA code thinking he had found a loophole(s) to use legally drugs that would achieve results similar to those of banned substances. So he wasn't cheating on an Armstrong level but he was ambivalent as to how close to the line he was to the point where he quite possibly crossed it whilst assuring all and sundry that what he was doing was legit. He was and continues to be deliberately vague about what he did which leaves us with the current uncertainty about what he really did use, the answer to which we will likely never know. Robinson was his dumb accomplice and I believe him when he says as far as he knows nothing banned was used.

For his part, Hird wanted bigger stronger bodies and with the suspicion planted by Dank that other clubs weren't on the level he was happy to go ahead with a program that he knew was borderline but demanded was legit. Beguiled by dank, and pleased with his results he bulldozed anyone who questioned the program and ignored clear warning signs that there were problems. Because of his standing within the club no one seemed willing to challenge him so what James wanted, james got.

The other club staff, dr Reid in particular should have been stronger in their convictions and done more to look into what dank was doing

Senior players should have known better than to blindly accept something that seemed unusual but with everyone in a senior position at the club telling them it was legit I can accept their belief, flawed as it was, that they were kosher. The younger players had no hope - in a football club environment they were always going to follow instructions. As naive, even stupid, as they were I believe they didn't think they were cheating despite the warning signs that seem obvious to us now in hindsight

So a not guilty verdict won't erase my suspicion that banned substances were used but I will accept that the evidence wasn't strong enough to convict. To a degree I'll be pleased for the players because I don't regard them as cheats but my concern will be that Essendon will look to a not guilty verdict as some sort of vindication of what they did - an experimental program that was reckless and gave no consideration to consequences to players, exposing them to possible health risks and prosecution under the WADA code

A guilty verdict will confirm my suspicions and I hope that the players are treated leniently whilst those who instigated and supported the program are given their right whack

Either way my forlorn hope is we get to find out as close as possible to the truth what really did happen and who was primarily responsible

 

[Gigantor]

I'm gonna go against the grain here and say: "Nah ferk that."

ASADA have been hamstrung by meddling politicans, a corrupt AFL, spin doctors, high priced silks and a recalcitrant defendant from day one( I dont begrudge Essendon trying to weasel out of it BTW, I just dont think it was the smart play). If ASADa dont manage to get this thing over the line that doesnt say to me that Essendon didnt give young healthy men horse drugs and alzheimers medicine (amongst other things). This isnt a court of law where evidence gets tested properly, it's a small federal dept. trying to make a tough case stick underfunded and understaffed and in the daily media spotlight.

I'm capable of thinking for myself and there is enough information on this thing that has come to light to say that Essendon got caught with their fingers in the cooky jar. The information from Baker and McKenzie's early investigations were damning enough on their own, in my view. Most of the rest has been noise. A couple of the savvy posters who've been here since the start like TerryWallet and blackshadow know bulldust and spin when they see it and I've been pretty much of like mind with them from early in the piece.

No doubt the Essendon supporters who come to this board will think i'm being close minded or a 'nuffy' but what the ferk do i care? They ve been regular contributors to the darndest thread in the history of the internetz!!!

Re the meddling politicians (and I agree with you that has been a problem from day one), does that not cut both ways?

If the politicians had not interfered from day one, ASADA would have been in a better position to honour the strict privacy and confidentiality provisions contained within its own enabling legislation.

 

[coryne]

I will probably be criticized for my opinion but I firmly believe that prohibited substances were used at the EFC in 2012, and that view won't change irrespective of how the tribunal rules. The simple fact that AOD9604 was accessed in a manner to try and circumvent the WADA code (through doctor shopping and using a "compounding pharmacist") illustrates the mentality used by Dank and his mates (Alavi/Charter/Robinson) when setting up the program. I think Hird knew enough to put a stop to the program before it started (the presentation regarding AOD9604 being an experimental drug should have been the end there) and instead of putting a stop to the program (e.g. after the Reid letter) he encouraged it and made sure that it continued (e.g. the "U.N skills" text)


A finding of not guilty will be stained IMO due to the people involved in the program, the lack of documentation during the running of the program, the substances used and the way that the EFC have handled themselves post-investigation (inviting the investigation then trying to have the process ruled illegal).


If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck then logic would tell you that it is a duck.

 

[Gigantor]

Complaining about umpires and booing. Two of the most pointless activities going around.

booooo
are you really a pies supporter?

 

[coryne]

I don't believe anyone at Essendon embarked on this program thinking they were going to use banned substances and it was never their intention to cheat per se. Yes, even dank.

Dank was too clever by half though and operated in the grey areas of the WADA code thinking he had found a loophole(s) to use legally drugs that would achieve results similar to those of banned substances. So he wasn't cheating on an Armstrong level but he was ambivalent as to how close to the line he was to the point where he quite possibly crossed it whilst assuring all and sundry that what he was doing was legit. He was and continues to be deliberately vague about what he did which leaves us with the current uncertainty about what he really did use, the answer to which we will likely never know. Robinson was his dumb accomplice and I believe him when he says as far as he knows nothing banned was used.

For his part, Hird wanted bigger stronger bodies and with the suspicion planted by Dank that other clubs weren't on the level he was happy to go ahead with a program that he knew was borderline but demanded was legit. Beguiled by dank, and pleased with his results he bulldozed anyone who questioned the program and ignored clear warning signs that there were problems. Because of his standing within the club no one seemed willing to challenge him so what James wanted, james got.

The other club staff, dr Reid in particular should have been stronger in their convictions and done more to look into what dank was doing

Senior players should have known better than to blindly accept something that seemed unusual but with everyone in a senior position at the club telling them it was legit I can accept their belief, flawed as it was, that they were kosher. The younger players had no hope - in a football club environment they were always going to follow instructions. As naive, even stupid, as they were I believe they didn't think they were cheating despite the warning signs that seem obvious to us now in hindsight

So a not guilty verdict won't erase my suspicion that banned substances were used but I will accept that the evidence wasn't strong enough to convict. To a degree I'll be pleased for the players because I don't regard them as cheats but my concern will be that Essendon will look to a not guilty verdict as some sort of vindication of what they did - an experimental program that was reckless and gave no consideration to consequences to players, exposing them to possible health risks and prosecution under the WADA code

A guilty verdict will confirm my suspicions and I hope that the players are treated leniently whilst those who instigated and supported the program are given their right whack

Either way my forlorn hope is we get to find out as close as possible to the truth what really did happen and who was primarily responsible

Sorry but when he started calling "Peptides" "Amino acid blends" to get around the WADA code then I would say that is Dank deliberately attempting to access prohibited substances. Same with the doctor shopping and compounding pharmacist, and the use of "generic" terms on the consent forms. Just because he wasn't good at doing so doesn't mean that that wasn't his desired outcome.

 

[tigerdan]

It's hard to believe the conspiracy theory that ASADA have just made a half-arsed attempt to ping them with TB4 because they stuffed up with the AOD charges.

I think most people (even GG if I didn't have him on ignore) would agree it's going to be down to:

Players doped but had NFI what was going on because Dank went rogue
Players doped but had NFI because Essendon went rogue
Players were part of a club-wide doping program and had a good idea what they were doing

The first option gets a wet lettuce but labeled cheats and probably a lot of people thinking the penalties were too soft.
The second option is probably most likely (IMHO) but probably another fairly wet lettuce.
The third option is armageddon for the Bombers and the AFL. 12 month bans at a minimum and probably 2 years.

Re: the wet lettuce, who'd want to be the AFL? Not a good position to be in, having to choose self inflicted pain. Like the guy in 'seven' who has to choose which pound of flesh to chop off. Go too harsh and income stream takes a hammering. Go too soft and run the risk of CAS doing the chopping for them.

Unless it's option 3, I predict tough language, new doping disrepute charges against the club with coaches having to walk the plank, big $ fines, suspended sentences, draft penalties while the players get harsh-sounding penalties backdated as heavily as they can. Essendon gets hit with a stick but the players given the feather duster treatment.

And when it comes to 'abiding by the decision', Essendon players are going to get called cheats regardless, even if they get off.

 

[FuManchu]

booooo
are you really a pies supporter?

Not everyone needs to conform to your myopic stereotypes.

 

[Hearts to hearts]

Sure, what else am I going to do? Launch an appeal or call for a commission of inquiry, Hardie-style?

If ASADA chooses to fight its case on only TB4 and a tribunal finds their evidence insufficient, that's life. It's a legal process and you need to make the right calls about fighting battles you believe you can win. If TB4 was their best shot and it goes down, it goes down.

I think I'd actually mind more if the tribunal found the players guilty and then a) the punishment was ludicrously light and b) there was no follow up action to identify and move against the people who took a leading role in the program and are still allowed to be involved in the game.

Either way, separate from the WADA compliance side of the issue, I'll remain pretty disgusted with the fact the program was set up and run for so long with so little risk mitigation, and the levels some people have gone to to avoid taking appropriate responsibility for it, and the AFL's early choices to help the EFC cover up rather than expose the program.

 

[Art Corvelay]

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck then logic would tell you that it is a duck.

Does it float? Sounds like a witch to me.

 

[evo]

Re the meddling politicians (and I agree with you that has been a problem from day one), does that not cut both ways?

If the politicians had not interfered from day one, ASADA would have been in a better position to honour the strict privacy and confidentiality provisions contained within its own enabling legislation.

I agree with that, but that mostly worked in Essendon's favour - ASADA were rushed before they were ready, politicians and other bigwigs were able to warn Essendon, opportunity to destroy documents (may) have occurred.

Albert the Litigant may disagree on that. He thinks his good name has been been besmirched. "Meh"

 

[Armchair Critic]

I bet Hirdy won't

 

[Keys]

Sorry but when he started calling "Peptide" "Amino acid blends" to get around the WADA code then I would say that is Dank deliberately attempting to access prohibited substances. Same with the doctor shopping and compounding pharmacist, and the use of "generic" terms on the consent forms. Just because he wasn't good at doing so doesn't mean that that wasn't his desired outcome.

You may be right but I think he was trying to circumvent the code more so than deliberately break it. Probably semantics but I don't believe he brazenly cheated in the way lance Armstrong did

That said dank will quite rightly never set foot in an AFL club ever again

 

[Gigantor]

Not everyone needs to conform to your myopic stereotypes.

That is a fair enough response.

Thank you for your honesty, but most of all, thank you for not responding with yet another false accusation about my bona fides as a footballer supporter.

 

[Gigantor]

I agree with that, but that mostly worked in Essendon's favour - ASADA were rushed before they were ready, politicians and other bigwigs were able to warn Essendon, opportunity to destroy documents (may) have occurred.

Albert the Litigant may disagree on that. He thinks his good name has been been besmirched. "Meh"

That's a reasonable point of view.

 

[FuManchu]

That is a fair enough response.

Thank you for your honesty, but most of all, thank you for not responding with yet another false accusation about my bona fides as a footballer supporter.

You're lucky I never went into a spiel about Collingwood supporters now being the most prosperous supporters financially and the shift in socio economic circumstances from the 70s to now.

 

[evo]

Players doped but had NFI what was going on because Dank went rogue
Players doped but had NFI because Essendon went rogue
Players were part of a club-wide doping program and had a good idea what they were doing
.

Why not 4: Players were part of a club-wide doping program but thought it best not to think too hard about it.

Making a token effort with the 'consent forms' absolved their conscience of it. "If Reidy and Jobe isnt going to kick up a fuss, why should I"

 

[coryne]

You may be right but I think he was trying to circumvent the code more so than deliberately break it. Probably semantics but I don't believe he brazenly cheated in the way lance Armstrong did

That said dank will quite rightly never set foot in an AFL club ever again

With Dank I keep on coming back to his total lack of respect for the WADA code. He appears to have seen it more of a hurdle to cross than rules to abide by. Loopholes to access this. Not even questioning if the "polymer" was WADA compliant (or safe to the players) when Alavi mentioned it could be an option. He sells AOD9604 at his personal company and lists PE properties as some of the benefits for its use.


There is little doubt in my mind that Dank saw AOD as a substance not specifically listed as a prohibited substance (a line used by the club for a long time) which had PE effects that he could access in a way that circumvented the WADA code.


Did he go out and use HGH on the players ??? Probably not (though some of the rumuours have him using very similar substances). Did he try and access substances which he thought would give similar/the same results ??? IMO he absolutely did.

 

[Lance Uppercut]

The tribunal can only make a decision on what is before them - which is TB4.

Based on Jobe Watson's confession regarding other prohibited drugs, a negative finding by the tribunal will probably not convince me that EFC did not cheat (even though I want closure as much as anyone).

I am also concerned that the penalty might be contrived even if the tribunal find the players guilty. Given the penalties handed out to athletes like Saad, et al, I doubt I would be convinced that anything less than a year of actual suspension (not including backdating, etc) would be reasonable.

well that's just your own personal bias though and nothing else. You are entitled to it I guess, but you should recognise it. Any penalty will be handed down by people far more qualified than any of us, and it will be within the parameters allowed by the wada code, and will be approved by wada themselves in the absence of an appeal. So to say your feels is more right than wada, well, it's just not.

Comparing it to Saad is, IMO, just stupid. They are so different it's not funny.

 

[Lance Uppercut]

With Dank I keep on coming back to his total lack of respect for the WADA code. He appears to have seen it more of a hurdle to cross than rules to abide by. Loopholes to access this. Not even questioning if the "polymer" was WADA compliant (or safe to the players) when Alavi mentioned it could be an option. He sells AOD9604 at his personal company and lists PE properties as some of the benefits for its use.


There is little doubt in my mind that Dank saw AOD as a substance not specifically listed as a prohibited substance (a line used by the club for a long time) which had PE effects that he could access in a way that circumvented the WADA code.


Did he go out and use HGH on the players ??? Probably not (though some of the rumuours have him using very similar substances). Did he try and access substances which he thought would give similar/the same results ??? IMO he absolutely did.

interesting thought exercise for you.

Substitute "wada code" with "tax obligations", and substitute "Dank" with "any corporate entity".

That kind of attitude is pretty much de rigueur in our society, so the all hand-wringing is probably a bit over the top

 

[Gigantor]

You're lucky I never went into a spiel about Collingwood supporters now being the most prosperous supporters financially and the shift in socio economic circumstances from the 70s to now.

I would actually be very interested in hearing about that one day.

What a great game we have.

 

[Keys]

interesting thought exercise for you.

Substitute "wada code" with "tax obligations", and substitute "Dank" with "any corporate entity".

That kind of attitude is pretty much de rigueur in our society, so the all hand-wringing is probably a bit over the top

And don't we all just love corporates minimizing their tax obligations

Trades or whoever doing cashies though is another matter

And sport is way more important than tax. We all know that

 

[threesixpio]

I am confident that ASADA have done as much as they can to prove their case. If it goes down I have no problem with players celebrating their innocence.

Re : Do we have a perfect legal system in Australia? Absolutely not. But the system relies upon a perception of integrity and without anything obviously untoward occurring I'll trust that we will get the right decision (eventually).

 

[FuManchu]

I would actually be very interested in hearing about that one day.

What a great game we have.

Gough Whitlam and free tertiary education allowed people living in traditional blue collar areas to avail themselves of higher education and from that point on, generational Collingwood supporters living in lower socio economic areas were becoming lawyers, doctors etc etc and moved into the middle class and with it came their relative improved prosperity.