Research Mystery of George Simmonds - early indigenous player (Melbourne/Richmond Seconds?)

[royals1922]

Just letting anyone interested know that I sent an email to Col Hutchinson at the AFL a few days ago regarding this story, giving a brief outline of what had been found, and providing a link to this thread. I have received a very polite reply and here's a summary of it:-

Some time ago Col was told by a relative, who clearly recalled seeing 'Nugget' Simmonds playing for Murtoa in the second half of the 1920s, that he had previously played with Melbourne and he'd been told that he was an aboriginal. The AFL still has him as George Leslie Simmonds, born 16/07/1895, died 15/01/1973, and that he was cleared from Kerang to Melbourne.

This matter is still being investigated and I'll be informed as to what the conclusion is.

It's good to see that this will be seriously looked into, now having some sort of a connection between George at Melbourne and George at Murtoa is very handy, because we know he went from Murtoa to Northcote. The big question remains (unless you believe he could still have been playing in the VFA at 43), when was he really born, and what age was he when he debuted for Melbourne.

I'm really hoping the Tasmanian newspaper had it right when it said he was aged 26 in September 1935, as it would mean he debuted for Melbourne aged 15 or 16, not 29 as the records currently have it.

Key is here, he'd been told he was indigenous. It's all to play for still.

 

[35Daicos]

For anyone interested in the George Simmonds story, I was contacted by Stephen Rodgers (AFL) today and he let me know that they are still looking into this matter very keenly, trying to come up with an answer. He said they are likely to give George a mention in the Football Record in the hope that a relative will come forward with more information.

 

[35Daicos]

On a related topic I'm interested in a player called "Johnson" who was recruited in 1897 (http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/9158422) and is described as "Captain of the Coranderrk", which as far as I can tell was an Aboriginal reserve near Healesville which was still active in the 1890's despite attempts to shut it down.

There's a possibility that he is the same person as George Johnstone (http://demonwiki.org/tiki-index.php?page=George+Johnstone) who I have not been able to find an origin for yet, and if he was this may make him the first indigenous player in VFL history - having played in Round 1, 1897. There's no indication that they are the same people, and it is a very common surname, but if I can confirm that Johnstone is from somewhere other than the Healesville area I can put 'Johnson' aside as a probable indigenous recruit who never played seniors.

No progress with this one at all?

 

[Supermercado]

No progress with this one at all?

Not a cracker unfortunately.

 

[worbod]

Not sure whether this will be of any use: I have recently asked staff at the Bendigo Library to check a genealogy database they have, to try to see if a George Leslie Simmonds was born in Bendigo in 1895. They did indeed find a George Leslie Simmonds born in Bendigo that year, but they had no exact date to go with it. This particular George Leslie Simmonds had William Percival as a father and Mary Ann Punch as a mother. The only way from this information that you could try to confirm if it's the George Simmonds you are after is to spend some money at the Births, Deaths and Marriages in Collins Street and apply for the birth and/or death certificates. It wouldn't matter that you are not related to George because he has been deceased for more than 10 years. It should cost less than 25 dollars for either certificate, but you would need to write the registration numbers on the application forms to get this cheaper price. The birth rego number is 18304 and the death rego number is 3216.

 

[royals1922]

Not sure whether this will be of any use: I have recently asked staff at the Bendigo Library to check a genealogy database they have, to try to see if a George Leslie Simmonds was born in Bendigo in 1895. They did indeed find a George Leslie Simmonds born in Bendigo that year, but they had no exact date to go with it. This particular George Leslie Simmonds had William Percival as a father and Mary Ann Punch as a mother. The only way from this information that you could try to confirm if it's the George Simmonds you are after is to spend some money at the Births, Deaths and Marriages in Collins Street and apply for the birth and/or death certificates. It wouldn't matter that you are not related to George because he has been deceased for more than 10 years. It should cost less than 25 dollars for either certificate, but you would need to write the registration numbers on the application forms to get this cheaper price. The birth rego number is 18304 and the death rego number is 3216.

If you Google search Mary ann Punch/ simmonds and William Simmonds you find a reference to George Simmonds recorded as being born July 16 1895 and having a brother William Simmonds and May Pegg and being married to a Jessie Simmonds, the date of birth which is unknown.

That does not mean he is the player who played for the teams in question.


Late note: the same geneological site starts that both of Mary Ann Punch's relatives were born in England as was William Percival's father but the geneology of William Percival's mother Rebecca is not known and her date and place of birth is unrecorded.

 

[35Daicos]

On a related topic I'm interested in a player called "Johnson" who was recruited in 1897 (http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/9158422) and is described as "Captain of the Coranderrk", which as far as I can tell was an Aboriginal reserve near Healesville which was still active in the 1890's despite attempts to shut it down.

There's a possibility that he is the same person as George Johnstone (http://demonwiki.org/tiki-index.php?page=George+Johnstone) who I have not been able to find an origin for yet, and if he was this may make him the first indigenous player in VFL history - having played in Round 1, 1897. There's no indication that they are the same people, and it is a very common surname, but if I can confirm that Johnstone is from somewhere other than the Healesville area I can put 'Johnson' aside as a probable indigenous recruit who never played seniors.

This is in the Healesville Guardian (26 June 1896) and it's worth mentioning. "Geo. Johnson applied for permit to play with Healesville, and Corranderrk opposed the application. This player had already obtained a permit to play with Coranderrk ..."

The permit wasn't granted, as it seems that he had only joined Coranderrk that season, and the rules stated "not more than one permit to be issued to the one player during the season."

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/page/6118486

 

[royals1922]

This is in the Healesville Guardian (26 June 1896) and it's worth mentioning. "Geo. Johnson applied for permit to play with Healesville, and Corranderrk opposed the application. This player had already obtained a permit to play with Coranderrk ..."

The permit wasn't granted, as it seems that he had only joined Coranderrk that season, and the rules stated "not more than one permit to be issued to the one player during the season."

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/page/6118486

George Johnson is mentioned as a champion supporter in the 23 September 1933 edition of the healesville and Yarraglenn Guardian at page 3:


http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article60441798

Also from the 27 May 1933 edition of the same newspapers at page 3.


http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article60441252

As well as page 4 of the 4 June 1932 edition:


http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article60439726

Even as late as 15 May 1937 he was referred to in the same newspaper:

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article60455162

And in 1940(26 October 1940) as well

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article60675076



so assuming we are talking about the same man, he was living in the Healesville area in 1933 to 1940.

 

[35Daicos]

George Johnson is mentioned as a champion supporter in the 23 September 1933 edition of the healesville and Yarraglenn Guardian at page 3:


http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article60441798

Also from the 27 May 1933 edition of the same newspapers at page 3.


http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article60441252

As well as page 4 of the 4 June 1932 edition:


http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article60439726

Even as late as 15 May 1937 he was referred to in the same newspaper:

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article60455162

And in 1940(26 October 1940) as well

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article60675076



so assuming we are talking about the same man, he was living in the Healesville area in 1933 to 1940.

Thanks for that. It could well be the same person still in the area 40 or so years down the track. He certainly gets a fair mention for his efforts as a supporter! It did seem to be a fairly common name, however.

I'd like to find out what club George Johnson joined Coranderrk from, and especially where did he go after his brief stint at Melbourne (1897-1898). Of course, it's not even a certainty the "Captain of the Coranderrk" was the Johnson/Johnstone who played for Melbourne, but it does look highly likely.

 

[royals1922]

Thanks for that. It could well be the same person still in the area 40 or so years down the track. He certainly gets a fair mention for his efforts as a supporter! It did seem to be a fairly common name, however.

I'd like to find out what club George Johnson joined Coranderrk from, and especially where did he go after his brief stint at Melbourne (1897-1898). Of course, it's not even a certainty the "Captain of the Coranderrk" was the Johnson/Johnstone who played for Melbourne, but it does look highly likely.

The only reason I put the later references in is one might be able to get some hits off Ancestry for George Johnson of Healesville.

 

[35Daicos]

Good to see George Simmonds given a mention in the Football Record (Round 4 page 82) Answer Man - Mystery Men section, as the AFL's statistics people had suggested would happen:-

George Leslie ‘Nugget’ Simmonds was born on July 16, 1895, and became a fine goalscorer with Victorian country club Kerang. He joined Melbourne in 1924 and played the first of his four matches as a 29-year-old in round 14. Early the next season he was cleared to South Ballarat and then transferred to Wimmera League club Murtoa in 1928-29. He moved back to the city, before dying in Kerang on January 15, 1973. Someone with the same name played with Richmond seconds during the mid-1920s and with Northcote in the VFA from 1930 until 1937. It is known that a George Matheson Simmonds was born in Richmond late in 1905 and died at Mitcham in 1972. Were there two separate players of the same name during the 1920s and ’30s?

 

[35Daicos]

George Johnson is mentioned as a champion supporter in the 23 September 1933 edition of the healesville and Yarraglenn Guardian at page 3:


http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article60441798

Also from the 27 May 1933 edition of the same newspapers at page 3.


http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article60441252

As well as page 4 of the 4 June 1932 edition:


http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article60439726

Even as late as 15 May 1937 he was referred to in the same newspaper:

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article60455162

And in 1940(26 October 1940) as well

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article60675076



so assuming we are talking about the same man, he was living in the Healesville area in 1933 to 1940.

http://honouringveterans.org/veteran.php?id=112672&t=ww2

This has a George Johnson being born in Healesville in 1894, he may well have been the "champion supporter", but obviously couldn't have been the Melbourne footballer who debuted in 1897.

 

[Eric R]

I strongly suspect that George Simmonds was not an aboriginal, and that he may be of African origin. His story could well be like that of Norm Le Brun and Norm Byron ( http://www.footyalmanac.com.au/the-poet-laureate-of-old-fitzroy/ ), two players from yesteryear who until very recently were believed to be indigenous, but proven to have different heritage. Looking at the two photos Michael Riley has posted, I'd say there's considerable doubt.

I am still just assuming that the George Simmonds who played at Melbourne in 1924 is the same person who ultimately ended up at Northcote. It's probably 95% likely, just not yet 100% certain as I'd like it to be! Anyway, looking at the photos (from 1933 and 1936), if the official DOB is correct, he'd need to be c. 38 and 41 (respectively). Not likely!

I'm not a member of Ancestry.com, so I presume I can't access too much on that site. If you (or anyone) could check George Leslie Simmonds - born at Bendigo in 1895 and died at Kerang in 1973 it would be very handy, and also see if there was a George M? Simmonds out there somewhere. Our man was probably born c. 1909 (though it could easily be that he wasn't born in Australia). When he went from Murtoa to Northcote the paper had him as G M Simmonds.

As I've said previously, I think someone got the DOB and other details mixed up, and they ended up with a DOB belonging to someone else. Again, if Melbourne George and Northcote George are one and the same, since he was supposed to have been born in 1895, by 1938 when still playing in the VFA he would have been 43. Also not likely!!

Fascinating. Thanks

 

[35Daicos]

Great research all, I will be updating his Demonwiki page accordingly and adding the note that he may not have been indigenous after all.

On a related topic I'm interested in a player called "Johnson" who was recruited in 1897 (http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/9158422) and is described as "Captain of the Coranderrk", which as far as I can tell was an Aboriginal reserve near Healesville which was still active in the 1890's despite attempts to shut it down.

There's a possibility that he is the same person as George Johnstone (http://demonwiki.org/tiki-index.php?page=George+Johnstone) who I have not been able to find an origin for yet, and if he was this may make him the first indigenous player in VFL history - having played in Round 1, 1897. There's no indication that they are the same people, and it is a very common surname, but if I can confirm that Johnstone is from somewhere other than the Healesville area I can put 'Johnson' aside as a probable indigenous recruit who never played seniors.

I now think it very unlikely that Johnson from Coranderrk was the same person as George Johnstone.

From The Herald Aug. 12 1898:- "Port Melbourne have secured a player with a big reputation as a 'baller from Corranderrk" The team that week has Johnson (2) named:- https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=EVKlETVVbN8C&dat=18980812&printsec=frontpage&hl=en (page 1)

The Port Melbourne FC all-time players list has George Johnson debuting in 1898 and playing 34 games:- http://www.sportingpulse.com/get_file.cgi?id=1631900

George Johnstone was still playing for Melbourne until the end of the 1898 season:- http://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/G/George_Johnstone.html

It looks likely that Johnson (from Coranderrk) tried out at Melbourne in 1897 but didn't make it, returned home, then headed to Port Melbourne late in 1898 and played there for a while.

 

[killer]

George Johnston was the secretary of Port in 1901
there is a picture of him page 36 of Kicking into the Wind

 

[35Daicos]

Supermercado

I might have jumped the gun on this one! I've only just noticed that G Johnston was in the Port Melbourne side back in June. If (as seems very likely) the August newspaper article was referring to a player who had come to the club in the previous week or so, then the Coranderrk recruit won't have been Johns(t)on, and your original idea is still a chance to be correct.

With a George Johns(t)on playing for Port Melbourne, only making his debut in 1898, and the club recruiting a player from Coranderrk, it did seem like the conclusion I jumped to was a pretty reasonable one to jump to, I must say!!

 

[Supermercado]

Supermercado

I might have jumped the gun on this one! I've only just noticed that G Johnston was in the Port Melbourne side back in June. If (as seems very likely) the August newspaper article was referring to a player who had come to the club in the previous week or so, then the Coranderrk recruit won't have been Johns(t)on, and your original idea is still a chance to be correct.

With a George Johns(t)on playing for Port Melbourne, only making his debut in 1898, and the club recruiting a player from Coranderrk, it did seem like the conclusion I jumped to was a pretty reasonable one to jump to, I must say!!

Thanks for the update, this one is quite the mystery. I will keep disclaimers on Johnstone's DW page.

 

[35Daicos]

On a related topic I'm interested in a player called "Johnson" who was recruited in 1897 (http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/9158422) and is described as "Captain of the Coranderrk", which as far as I can tell was an Aboriginal reserve near Healesville which was still active in the 1890's despite attempts to shut it down.

There's a possibility that he is the same person as George Johnstone (http://demonwiki.org/tiki-index.php?page=George+Johnstone) who I have not been able to find an origin for yet, and if he was this may make him the first indigenous player in VFL history - having played in Round 1, 1897. There's no indication that they are the same people, and it is a very common surname, but if I can confirm that Johnstone is from somewhere other than the Healesville area I can put 'Johnson' aside as a probable indigenous recruit who never played seniors.

Thanks for the update, this one is quite the mystery. I will keep disclaimers on Johnstone's DW page.

I have a look on Trove every now and then in case something new pops up that will help with this old mystery, but have found nothing. However, the 2018 edition of The Encyclopedia Of AFL Footballers says George Johnstone was "ex-Coranderk". The previous edition made no mention of his origin. They've also added a height and weight (179cm/81kg). I'd say it's almost certain they got this information from the AFL. Strangely, the book still has his career games tally as 6 (not 8).

 

[35Daicos]

These are the records from Vic BDM which seem to match the DOB and DOD (04-11-1869/09-11-1956) shown on Wikipedia and AustralianFootball for George Johnstone:
Record information
Event Birth
Event registration number 14363
Registration year 1869

Personal information
Family name JOHNSTONE
Given names George
Sex Unknown
Father's name Alexander
Mother's name Elizabeth (Hunter)
Place of birth CERES

Record information
Event Death
Event registration number 23307
Registration year 1956

Personal information
Family name JOHNSTON
Given names George
Sex Male
Father's name JOHNSTON Alexander
Mother's name Unknown (Unknown)
Place of birth GNARWARRE
Place of death GEELONG
Age 88

Record information
Event Marriage
Event registration number 2136
Registration year 1900

Personal information
Family name AITCHESON
Given names Isabella Mary
Sex Unknown
Spouse's family name JOHNSTON
Spouse's given names Geo

From Geelong Cemetery records:

The parents (Alexander and Elizabeth) can be found buried (together) elsewhere at a Geelong cemetery. George and Isabella had children born (all at Geelong) in 1900, 1902, 1904 and 1908.

George Johnston(e) does seem to have spent the majority of his life at Geelong. It's not out of the question that he went away for a few years and (perhaps) worked at/near Coranderrk, played football there and then in Melbourne before returning to Geelong. It's also not out of the question that the AFL has the wrong person/wrong DOB and DOD details!

 

[the croucher]

I have a look on Trove every now and then in case something new pops up that will help with this old mystery, but have found nothing. However, the 2018 edition of The Encyclopedia Of AFL Footballers says George Johnstone was "ex-Coranderk". The previous edition made no mention of his origin. They've also added a height and weight (179cm/81kg). I'd say it's almost certain they got this information from the AFL. Strangely, the book still has his career games tally as 6 (not 8).

Have just checked the previous edition (pub. in 2014) of the Encyclopedia of VFL/AFL Players and found it has no ref to Johnstone's original club, nor any height/weight for him. Goodness knows what evidence they have for the physical stature details. Cannot immediately find any likely candidates in names listed as serving in WW1.

 

[35Daicos]

Have just checked the previous edition (pub. in 2014) of the Encyclopedia of VFL/AFL Players and found it has no ref to Johnstone's original club, nor any height/weight for him. Goodness knows what evidence they have for the physical stature details. Cannot immediately find any likely candidates in names listed as serving in WW1.

Yes, the point I was trying to make in my post was that while the new edition of the book included a club of origin and height and weight, the previous edition had none of that. It is indeed hard to imagine where they got the height/weight details from!! He'd have been in his mid-40's by the time WW1 came around, so he probably just didn't make it.

I just wonder if they (AFL) have the right person in this George Johnston(e) from Geelong!

 

[rbartlett]

With this thread, are we still waiting to confirm the George Simmonds of Melbourne is the George Simmonds who played with Richmond Seconds?, or has that been resolved.
Cause I see were are now into Johnstone territory with this thread.

 

[35Daicos]

With this thread, are we still waiting to confirm the George Simmonds of Melbourne is the George Simmonds who played with Richmond Seconds?, or has that been resolved.

I don't think that issue was ever resolved. If the George Simmonds who played for Melbourne was the same player who played with Richmond Seconds he would have been still playing in his forties with Northcote, which seems too unlikely. It seems more likely that George Matherson Simmonds, who was born in Richmond in 1905, was the Richmond Seconds/Murtoa/Northcote player.

It's certainly still a mystery!

 

[35Daicos]

From the information above I have two questions.

1) Was George Simmonds at Melbourne every identified as 'Nugget' in contemporary sources?
2) Is there any other picture of George Simmonds other than the Northcote 1933 photo by Boyles (attached)

George Simmonds (b1895-d1973)
Kerang c1923
Melbourne 1924
South Ballarat (Permit 1925)

George 'Nuggett' Simmonds b circa 1909
Richmond Seconds 1925-1927
Murtoa c1928-1929
Northcote c1930-1938

(If age 26 in 1935 would have been 16 on debut at Richmond)

Photo - 1936 Northcote
http://boylesfootballphotos.net.au/...ir_1951_-_Private_Coll_-_Photographer_Unk.jpg

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/243197057 (6 Oct 1933)

As well as a decent picture, this article has the Northcote player at age 23 in 1933 - meaning he should have been born around 1910.

 

[GreyCrow]

A note for exemption for George Simmonds Kerang aged 21 (ie 1895) in 1916 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article87221900

Gives some info to help narrow down . Mother widowed only brother.

This does refer to the n.....r minstrels http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article87222189

After his clearance to ballarat this has him returning from there to play in Kerang http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article223164431

Article 1923 refers to C Simmonds playing for Richmond against North Melbourne http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article171251944

From Herald Sun Sep 29 1933

2) Is there any other picture of George Simmonds other than the Northcote 1933 photo by Boyles (attached)


http://boylesfootballphotos.net.au/...ir_1951_-_Private_Coll_-_Photographer_Unk.jpg