Afl Reserves in SANFL

[Rankor]

So the time is near for a decision on the afl reserves teams playing in our traditional heartland.

I'm asking all south aussie footy supporters to discuss which is the best direction that should be taken in regards to whats best for footy in our great state.

I'm all for both Afl teams having ressie sides in our local comp because it may make them both very strong and also improve the sanfl's bottom line. But i would hate making the decision on which model it should be.

So what do all you SA footy supporters think should be done to make footy in this state better and stronger?

 

[Strangled Cat]

I have no doubt that once the Magpies (Power) and Crows reserves get up and running, they will be the two powerhouses in the SANFL. Just look at the VFL and who the strong clubs are. It was once Port Melbourne, but over time they've struggled to compete. They are still a strong outfit, and flying the flag for those clubs who have no AFL affiliate, but for the most part, the clubs who aren't AFL affiliated are suffering on-field. As more Victorian AFL clubs are getting their own reserves sides, the gulf between those who are and aren't affiliated with AFL sides is widening dramatically. The whole reason why AFL clubs want their own team is to fast-track the development of their younger guys. So it's only fitting then that over time, those clubs are going to get better.

Wait until Crows and Port are powerhouses again, and have very few injuries, the list squeeze will be brutal. Take my club for example; Geelong have so many AFL ready young players who would be walk up best 22 players at most other clubs, but due to the competition for spots - mainly against single, double and even triple premiership players. They are finding themselves having to fight it out in the magoos. Geelong's VFL team won the GF last year, and are looking very likely to go back-to-back, and with even more stars eligable to play due to less injuries and the fact that we're in red hot form - young players who are even better and more developed than they were last year makes that even more compelling. You just can't expect teams like Frankston, Bendigo et al who have zero AFL listed players to compete.

If the VFL is anything to go by, Port Adelaide Magpies and Adelaide Crows will be playing out in Grand Finals routinely once they get up and running as their respective reserve sides in the SANFL. The argument that team x with 4 AFL listed players defeated team y with only 1 AFL listed players is flawed IMO. The whole point of having your own reserves team is to teach your young kids how to play as a unit which emulates the senior team, so by that extension you could argue that all other SANFL teams aren't at all competing on a level playing field, compared to the ressies, because the professional coaching structure and personnel are all professional, as opposed to the barely semi-professional nature of SANFL teams.

I think it will all be moot soon, as I beleive in the next 10 years the AFL will return to a reserves competition which will see every team have their own reserves side competing against one another where the fixturing will mirror the AFL's, and possibly be shown as a curtain raiser to every AFL match. In that case, Port Adelaide will have a Power reserves and will need to once again relinquish their alleigiance to the Magpies (but retaining the "one club" mantra). The same will go for all interstate teams. By then, every Victorian club will have their own reserves, so the move will be welcomed by the stand alone clubs still competing in the VFL. For the moment though, there's still a lot of water to go under the bridge, so it will be interesting to see how it plays out in the SANFL in the short term.

 

[Heardy_101]

Several points to make:

1) Rucci needs to pull his head in and stop being a one-sided prick. No, seriously, I'm sick of reading his crap at the moment. It reeks of personal agenda and as far as I'm concerned, the Sadvertiser is f**ked in it's current form no thanks to the new Editor in charge plus Rucci's crap. Even Jesper Fjelstad writes better than him at the moment - and Jesper is known to write some crap on his day as well. The problem with Rucci is is that even when his humble pie is backed for him, he would rather argue as to why he should of been right and write more crap.

2) You can't have an SANFL without the Magpies. Regardless of whether Port will get the Magpies as their Reserves or end up keeping the current status quo (having their players scattered amongst the 9 clubs), the Magpies MUST survive. They pull crowds at home and pull the crowds when playing away. This won't change when they become the Power reserves.

3) There needs to be a in-between model between the Crows proposal (only one league side) and Port's proposal (all sides plus recruiting zones). This could come in the form of both the Crows and Port having SANFL League sides and SANFL reserves sides (this then creates the issue of where the extra Crows players will come from). Port's plan is, to put it into Dennis Cometti's words, Ambitious. Whilst the Crows is too simplistic.

4) I support the reserves in the SANFL. It will give the SANFL the boost it needs. Let's face it, the SANFL isn't what it used to be. Clubs are struggling. By having the Crows as the away side each week it will give struggling clubs some extra $$ eg Sturt and Westies. Plus the Crows will probably get some decent crowds as well. Not only that plus as there will then be ten sides, no more byes. Also, it will mean consistency in terms of lists; SANFL coaches won't have to work around which AFL players will be where and whether they'll be picked that week.

 

[charlie hawk]

The lions reserves in the QAFL works well, they don't dominate. I'm not sure but I think they cap the amount of listed players they can play to 15ish then fill up with promising 17 and 18 yr olds from around the state. Gives kids a chance to play with AFL listed players and even the comp. could this work?

 

[Heardy_101]

The lions reserves in the QAFL works well, they don't dominate. I'm not sure but I think they cap the amount of listed players they can play to 15ish then fill up with promising 17 and 18 yr olds from around the state. Gives kids a chance to play with AFL listed players and even the comp. could this work?

Makes too much sense to the SANFL.

Question, do any of the AFL club reserves dominate in the VFL? I know Geelong have been pretty good for the last few years since 2007, but are there any others that do? How do the stand alone clubs compare?

While we're at it, how do the stand alone clubs compare to the reserves in the NEAFL?

 

[StevenFutureAFL]

I support it as the competition structure stands at the moment, as it would increase viewers, and be in line with how the NEAFL works and how the VFL is going, however having seconds teams is not good for the structure of the AFL in terms of expansion, if you compare it to the EPL where there is promotion and relegation you do not see Manchester United with another team in the 2nd division. Will these seconds teams play off for the Foxtel Cup, and could they be seen as being promoted to an AFL second division in the future? Would we see Adelaide vs Geelong in the Foxtel Cup, how does that make sense.

 

[Dirty Bird]

Give both clubs what they want.
They wont dominate, this isn't AFL Canberra we're competing in, the opposition teams would win more than their fair share.
Infact, Crow games would potentially increase crowds across the board.

ANd yes, Port can keep zonal concessions and all that, when the AFL sets up a national reserves comp Port Magpies will need the foundation remaining to keep alive after that, otherwise, the SANFL version of Port might be ****ed. My guess is 2016 (or is it 2017) when the new tv rights yet to be discussed come into effect when a national reserves comp is set up.

 

[walhawk]

I have no doubt that once the Magpies (Power) and Crows reserves get up and running, they will be the two powerhouses in the SANFL. Just look at the VFL and who the strong clubs are. It was once Port Melbourne, but over time they've struggled to compete. They are still a strong outfit, and flying the flag for those clubs who have no AFL affiliate, but for the most part, the clubs who aren't AFL affiliated are suffering on-field. As more Victorian AFL clubs are getting their own reserves sides, the gulf between those who are and aren't affiliated with AFL sides is widening dramatically. The whole reason why AFL clubs want their own team is to fast-track the development of their younger guys. So it's only fitting then that over time, those clubs are going to get better.

Wait until Crows and Port are powerhouses again, and have very few injuries, the list squeeze will be brutal. Take my club for example; Geelong have so many AFL ready young players who would be walk up best 22 players at most other clubs, but due to the competition for spots - mainly against single, double and even triple premiership players. They are finding themselves having to fight it out in the magoos. Geelong's VFL team won the GF last year, and are looking very likely to go back-to-back, and with even more stars eligable to play due to less injuries and the fact that we're in red hot form - young players who are even better and more developed than they were last year makes that even more compelling. You just can't expect teams like Frankston, Bendigo et al who have zero AFL listed players to compete.

If the VFL is anything to go by, Port Adelaide Magpies and Adelaide Crows will be playing out in Grand Finals routinely once they get up and running as their respective reserve sides in the SANFL. The argument that team x with 4 AFL listed players defeated team y with only 1 AFL listed players is flawed IMO. The whole point of having your own reserves team is to teach your young kids how to play as a unit which emulates the senior team, so by that extension you could argue that all other SANFL teams aren't at all competing on a level playing field, compared to the ressies, because the professional coaching structure and personnel are all professional, as opposed to the barely semi-professional nature of SANFL teams.

I think it will all be moot soon, as I beleive in the next 10 years the AFL will return to a reserves competition which will see every team have their own reserves side competing against one another where the fixturing will mirror the AFL's, and possibly be shown as a curtain raiser to every AFL match. In that case, Port Adelaide will have a Power reserves and will need to once again relinquish their alleigiance to the Magpies (but retaining the "one club" mantra). The same will go for all interstate teams. By then, every Victorian club will have their own reserves, so the move will be welcomed by the stand alone clubs still competing in the VFL. For the moment though, there's still a lot of water to go under the bridge, so it will be interesting to see how it plays out in the SANFL in the short term.

Not sure if I agree.
There are three reserves teams in the VFL - Cats are on top, Pies 7th and Bombers 10th.
The stand alone state league sides are 5th, 12th & 14th.
The partnership with old VFL clubs and AFL reserves fill the other spots. Pretty even spread if you ask me.

 

[Strangled Cat]

Not sure if I agree.
There are three reserves teams in the VFL - Cats are on top, Pies 7th and Bombers 10th.
The stand alone state league sides are 5th, 12th & 14th.
The partnership with old VFL clubs and AFL reserves fill the other spots. Pretty even spread if you ask me.

Box Hill Hawks are Hawthorn reserves with a different name. For all other intents and purposes, they operate exactly as a reserves team would. What would change if Hawthorn dumped Box Hill for their own reserves? Very little if anything at all. But your point about Pies and Bombers is valid, and noted. Let's see how it plays out. I have my own opinions, as does everyone else...

 

[walhawk]

Box Hill Hawks are Hawthorn reserves with a different name. For all other intents and purposes, they operate exactly as a reserves team would. What would change if Hawthorn dumped Box Hill for their own reserves? Very little if anything at all. But your point about Pies and Bombers is valid, and noted. Let's see how it plays out. I have my own opinions, as does everyone else...

Not true.
Most of the hybrid clubs still have their own passionate local committees and supporters that are striving for a flag and who recruit new players. Collingwood and Essendon don't really do this.
Geelong is unique as it is a city, but I would suggest that Box Hill, is much, much keener for a VFL flag than Collingwood or Essendon.
Box Hill, Sandringham, etc are football clubs.
Collingwood/Essendon reserves are teams.

 

[walhawk]

Anyway, with Bendigo broke (again), Port should send a team to the VFL next year.

 

[Strangled Cat]

Not true.
Most of the hybrid clubs still have their own passionate local committees and supporters that are striving for a flag and who recruit new players. Collingwood and Essendon don't really do this.
Geelong is unique as it is a city, but I would suggest that Box Hill, is much, much keener for a VFL flag than Collingwood or Essendon.
Box Hill, Sandringham, etc are football clubs.
Collingwood/Essendon reserves are teams.

Do Hawthorn plan to continue their partnership with Box Hill long term?

 

[banjomal]

SANFL is compromised enough as it is with AFL players coming and going, whole teams would wreck it. No AFL in the SANFL.

 

[walhawk]

Do Hawthorn plan to continue their partnership with Box Hill long term?

Yes.
It is and has always been the best in state.
For a number of reasons -
Same part of town (BH in middle of traditional Hawthorn supporter base - they are one of the few clubs that usually get OK crowds)
Same colours
Also - they are stuck with each other, so there have never been any rumblings from either party to end the deal
- Box Hill has no money, so no alternative.
- Hawthorn cannot play games @ Waverley.

If the AFL/VFL had planned it better, some other partnerships may have worked - basically clubs partnered up with the wrong clubs and were doomed from the start.

Interstaters might not realise that most VFL clubs would only have a few hundred supporters, not thousands like in SA/WA.

 

[Strangled Cat]

Yes.
It is and has always been the best in state.
For a number of reasons -
Same part of town (BH in middle of traditional Hawthorn supporter base - they are one of the few clubs that usually get OK crowds)
Same colours
Also - they are stuck with each other, so there have never been any rumblings from either party to end the deal
- Box Hill has no money, so no alternative.
- Hawthorn cannot play games @ Waverley.

If the AFL/VFL had planned it better, some other partnerships may have worked - basically clubs partnered up with the wrong clubs and were doomed from the start.

Interstaters might not realise that most VFL clubs would only have a few hundred supporters, not thousands like in SA/WA.

It will be interesting to see what happens if the AFL bring in their own reserves competition. If they do, can Box Hill remain Hawthorn's reserves side? Would Box Hill be willing to compete in an AFL reserves competition and potentially abandon their local roots? If the AFL reserves can only play as curtain raisers to AFL games, I can see this being a concern for Box Hill, but if they're allowed to remain at their traditional home ground then I suppose that it shouldn't be a problem.

 

[walhawk]

It will be interesting to see what happens if the AFL bring in their own reserves competition. If they do, can Box Hill remain Hawthorn's reserves side? Would Box Hill be willing to compete in an AFL reserves competition and potentially abandon their local roots? If the AFL reserves can only play as curtain raisers to AFL games, I can see this being a concern for Box Hill, but if they're allowed to remain at their traditional home ground then I suppose that it shouldn't be a problem.

There won't be many curtain raiser @ MCG or Docklands. Hawks reserves to play @ Box Hill.

 

[nick1408]

I support it as the competition structure stands at the moment, as it would increase viewers, and be in line with how the NEAFL works and how the VFL is going, however having seconds teams is not good for the structure of the AFL in terms of expansion, if you compare it to the EPL where there is promotion and relegation you do not see Manchester United with another team in the 2nd division. Will these seconds teams play off for the Foxtel Cup, and could they be seen as being promoted to an AFL second division in the future? Would we see Adelaide vs Geelong in the Foxtel Cup, how does that make sense.

You are right about the EPL but how about La Liga or the Bundesliga? Barcelona B and Real Madrid Castilla (seconds teams) play in one division below the main sides. In Germany seconds sides cannot go higher than the 3rd division. Here we find VfB Stuttgatt II and Borussia Dortmund II. The highest leagues seconds clubs can climb to and we find only two sides with teams in the top division. The current European champion doesn't even have their second side in the highest division possible.

Just to answer your other point too; II and B sides are not permitted in their countries cup competitions. I would imagine the SANFL would follow suit.

 

[chibimatty]

Just asking a bit of a left-field question from someone who is a WAFL fan; but if the SANFL has room for a 10th team, was there any suggestion that the Eagles split up into West Torrens and Woodville again?

 

[banjomal]

Just asking a bit of a left-field question from someone who is a WAFL fan; but if the SANFL has room for a 10th team, was there any suggestion that the Eagles split up into West Torrens and Woodville again?

Might have been a suggestion I read once somewhere on the safooty site, but the merge was due to financial reasons and that's still a problem for many SANFL clubs here, so no, it wasn't a serious consideration at any stage, and the push for a 10th side was mainly for the benefit of the Crows and the commercial gain.

 

[Heardy_101]

There was talk that the Eagles merger would fail however I have not found more details on that. How it would fail is beyond me, would it be Northern Eagles (NRL) style with the team reverting back to one name only (eg just Woodville or just West Torrens), with the other club being officially dead.

There was also talk of ANOTHER merger a few years ago if I recall correctly, however I don't know how this would have gone about. Norwood and Sturt were going to merge and enter the AFL if Port didn't get in.

Sturt and West Adelaide nearly folded last pre-season - I hope they don't fall over this year or the next. With Adelaide and Port reserves coming in, the extra cashflow and extra home game would no doubt be appreciated.

 

[chibimatty]

There was also talk of ANOTHER merger a few years ago if I recall correctly, however I don't know how this would have gone about. Norwood and Sturt were going to merge and enter the AFL if Port didn't get in.

Still think South Australia should have three AFL teams. I find it odd that WA and SA have the same number of teams as NSW and Qld.

 

[Team DJ]

Still think South Australia should have three AFL teams. I find it odd that WA and SA have the same number of teams as NSW and Qld.

We only have a million people. And Port struggle enough as it is without another competitor.

It couldnt be another metro team. Something like Mt Gambier in the south east would be the only option,.

 

[Heardy_101]

Mount Gambier?

I actually think the SANFL should expand outside of the metro area personally, eg Spencer Gulf, Adelaide Hills, South East, Riverland, Port Lincoln.

 

[chibimatty]

We only have a million people.

Don't sell yourself short, but in Aussie Rules footballing terms, WA and SA should be having a higher participation than two rugby league strongholds.

 

[Breretonisahood]

Its not about the population of football followers but TV watching. QLD and NSW potentially provide 9 million viewers, even though many couldn't care less for anything other than rugby league. By having 2 teams in each state the AFL/Seven can telecast 2 "local" team games each weekend. I live in QLD and lots of people watch AFL (as it is called here) even though they are rugby league fans. The point is, from a TV perspective as long as the advertisers feel they have a viewing audience, they're happy, even if the audience is not "converted" to AFL. I doubt whether adding 1 new team in each of WA and SA would have any significant effect on TV viewing and advertising revenue.

Don't sell yourself short, but in Aussie Rules footballing terms, WA and SA should be having a higher participation than two rugby league strongholds.