"Can't turn can't climb, can't run" - JSF F-35 is a dud

[finders]

Im sick of Australia buying sub standard military hardware from other nations.

Me Too! Why dont we have a look at the Russian and Chinese ones as well that would really put the wind up the YanksWhy do we only have to buy the s**t the Yanks flog to us - are we an independent Nation or not? Grow some balls boys and girls.

 

[Richo83]

Im sick of Australia buying sub standard military hardware from other nations.

Agreed, but unless Australia develops a serious military production industry like the US with Lockheed-Martin et al (unlikely) we're always going to buy the scraps and the second hands. Thing is, even if you buy scraps, you'd hope that they are still able to be used. Collins class subs.

 

[RUNVS]

Agreed, but unless Australia develops a serious military production industry like the US with Lockheed-Martin et al (unlikely) we're always going to buy the scraps and the second hands. Thing is, even if you buy scraps, you'd hope that they are still able to be used. Collins class subs.

We bought the design of the Collins Class from the Swedes and they arent exactly known as a nations which produces world class military hardware.

Though Collins Class isnt even close to the worst purchasing mistake the Defence Force has made because from what ive heard the Collins Class Subs are actually working reasonably well these days (1 Collins Class sunk 2 US battleships in a War Games afew years ago) but one of the worst decisions is those bloody Seahawks which as far as i can still dont work at all.

 

[Dogga79]

We bought the design of the Collins Class from the Swedes and they arent exactly known as a nations which produces world class military hardware.

Nope you are wrong.

The RBS-70 short range missile /air defence system made by SAAB-BOFORS and the 84mm Carl Gustav are some of the finest weapons ever made. I know because I've fired them.

The JSF will be fine. It takes time when developing equipment this advanced.
Because of the lack of publicly available information on the design and testing process of things such as the JSF, people draw their own conclusions. The rumour mill is in overtime.

It will reaffirm us as the dominant power of the region. The F-111 had its knockers in 1963 when we ordered them off the plan, and they have been one of the greatest acquisitions in RAAF history. They still make the Indonesians nervous.

 

[Dogga79]

I still can't believe we paid the 'new' price for second hand tanks, some of which were 20 years old.

They basically are new once Aniston Army Depot have finished with them. The M1 Abrams is arguably one of the best, most feared tanks in the world. Especially after the TUSK upgrade.

Worth every penny in my book.

 

[Schism]

Come on. How many tanks did we buy?60..70 tanks? Egypt alone has something like 700 M1's to defend their border. What is 70 tanks gonna do for us,assuming we were ever in a position to even need them (never happen). We have the capacity to move what, 6 at a time by air? And slowly at that.

Complete waste of money. We should have spent it on more attack choppers.

 

[Dogga79]

Come on. How many tanks did we buy?60..70 tanks? Egypt alone has something like 700 M1's to defend their border. What is 70 tanks gonna do for us,assuming we were ever in a position to even need them (never happen). We have the capacity to move what, 6 at a time by air? And slowly at that.

Complete waste of money. We should have spent it on more attack choppers.

Think in terms of our region and the likely threats. I will be very surprised if an Australian M1 ever leaves our shores. Its primary role is the defence of Australia.

 

[Schism]

Think in terms of our region and the likely threats. I will be very surprised if an Australian M1 ever leaves our shores. Its primary role is the defence of Australia.

This is precisely my point. If Egypt has 700 to defend its border, and lets face it the part of its border it needs to worry about is very small, then what the hell is 70 tanks going to do for us? I'd feel good about it if we had 1000 in Darwin, 1000 in Townsville and a few hundred somewhere on the north-west shelf. Then it might make sense. 70 tanks is barely enough to defend a suburb.

 

[Dogga79]

This is precisely my point. If Egypt has 700 to defend its border, and lets face it the part of its border it needs to worry about is very small, then what the hell is 70 tanks going to do for us? I'd feel good about it if we had 1000 in Darwin, 1000 in Townsville and a few hundred somewhere on the north-west shelf. Then it might make sense. 70 tanks is barely enough to defend a suburb.

I'd hate to see the size of your defence budget.

I still think you have missed my point. All I am saying, is that it is adequate for our region. The status of the Egyptian army and what it means to their region is completely different to our situation. Don't forget who helps them get their military hardware. They have big pockets.

 

[Schism]

I'd hate to see the size of your defence budget.

I still think you have missed my point. All I am saying, is that it is adequate for our region. The status of the Egyptian army and what it means to their region is completely different to our situation. Don't forget who helps them get their military hardware. They have big pockets.

Actually buying 70 is as ridiculous as wanting 2000. The Iraq war has shown that anyone can take out an M1. Even with 100,000+ troops and god knows how many choppers,aircraft and other armor as support,they US has still lost M1's to improvised tactics. What i'm saying is 70 tanks is tokenism,also what is your opinion on my suggestion it would have been better spent on more Tiger choppers?

 

[Dogga79]

Actually buying 70 is as ridiculous as wanting 2000. The Iraq war has shown that anyone can take out an M1. Even with 100,000+ troops and god knows how many choppers,aircraft and other armor as support,they US has still lost M1's to improvised tactics. What i'm saying is 70 tanks is tokenism,also what is your opinion on my suggestion it would have been better spent on more Tiger choppers?

Personally I think the Apache would have been better. It is proven and deadly. But the Euro Tiger looks pretty formidable. I guess time will tell.

Also lessons learned from Iraq led to the TUSK upgrades on the M1 Abrams. Say what you will, but IMO they are an important part of a complete defence strategy.

 

[Schism]

Personally I think the Apache would have been better. It is proven and deadly. But the Euro Tiger looks pretty formidable. I guess time will tell.

Also lessons learned from Iraq led to the TUSK upgrades on the M1 Abrams. Say what you will, but IMO they are an important part of a complete defence strategy.

Mate you are starting to sound like you think we should only buy American, even though they keep ripping us off time and time again. I know it's beast of a tank, but what i'm saying is 70 isn't enough to defend a city let alone a country, so why bother buying any at all. The Euro Tiger is formidable, and i know which one will win if it goes up against an Abrams

I understand the whole argument is somewhat pointless as no country has the capability to invade Australia except the US, but still,it's a huge waste of money.

When the US lets us buy Raptors, then i'll be impressed. Until then, we're just treated like a 2nd rate ally.

 

[Dogga79]

Mate you are starting to sound like you think we should only buy American

Their equipment works where their tactics fail. And anyway I already said I rate the Swedes.

The Euro Tiger is formidable, and i know which one will win if it goes up against an Abrams

Ahh.... you haven't seen the end of Rambo 3 have you. Pure classic.

 

[Schism]

Their equipment works where their tactics fail. And anyway I already said I rate the Swedes.




Ahh.... you haven't seen the end of Rambo 3 have you. Pure classic.

Hey if we had Rambo we wouldn't need tanks or choppers

Which actually reminds me of another alternative to tanks which will for the next 20 years be spending equal amounts of time in the bush and repair bays. Infantry, and lots of it. We always see politicians on TV saying "we're stretched to the limit". Well stop ****ing buying things that will never fire a shot in anger, and raise more battalions. And another sabre squadron over there. Get 4RAR fully manned and equipped.

On the one hand everyone,everywhere agrees Afghanistan and places like it will be the battlefield for the next decade or two, yet we spend money on things that will never be of any help there.

 

[Eastern Rangers]

This is not news anywhere else in the world? Why? Because nobody has listened to some stupid Australian backbencher who knows **** all and because the JSF will destroy any Russian plane before it gets close enough to get into a Dog Fight. Secondly this report did not take into account the new short range weapons currently under development for the JSF.

It's BS, the JSF will own any Russian plane in combat. Not to mention they used the wrong numbers in the simulation.

 

[Juddism]

http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-JSF-Analysis.html

http://www.ausairpower.net/DT-SuperBug-vs-Flanker.html

http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-2008-03.html


some analysis from Australia's finest.

 

[Tasmaniac]

http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-JSF-Analysis.html

http://www.ausairpower.net/DT-SuperBug-vs-Flanker.html

http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-2008-03.html


some analysis from Australia's finest.

Don't you mean some analysis from people with an axe to grind?

 

[Dry Rot]

Interesting but disturbing reading:

COMMENTARY

8:40 AM, 22 Feb 2010| More
Robert Gottliebsen
Air defence in a spin

One by one, the jigsaw pieces are falling into place. It is becoming apparent that Australians have been subject the largest and most dangerous cover-up in the nation’s history. And what makes the cover-up so hard to uncover is that both our political parties are involved, so there is no incentive for the opposition to put pressure on the government....ten days later, one of Australia’s top defence writers, The Australian’s associate editor Cameron Stewart, revealed significant pieces of the JSF cover-up. While Stewart is yet to be convinced that the JSF is a lemon, his revelations about cover-up mechanisms makes it almost impossible for Defence Minister John Faulkner and parliament to discover the real truth and whether the conclusions of Carlo Kopp and Peter Goon's independent Australian defence analytical group – Air Power Australia – about the superiority of the Russian aircraft are right....

http://www.businessspectator.com.au...over-up-pd20100222-2VS4G?OpenDocument&src=kgb

 

[Krakeour Magic]

I say we inundate the northern coast with the beauties and fling pork at the Indonesian invaders.

 

[Play by Numbers]

The F-35 JSF, Predator or prey?

July 12, 2009 – 2:11 pm, by Ben Sandilands
Various analysts have warned that counter measures to the JSF are being developed and deployed much faster than the troubled project is moving towards delivery.
One of them, an authoritative and experienced military identity, who wishes to remain anonymous until he chooses otherwise, has sent us a review of this dilemma for the JSF in language accessible to lay readers.
Joseph Stalin is quoted as saying: “Quantity has a quality all its own”. And so it goes with the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter. America plans to provide about 2,500 to its Armed Forces, and Lockheed Martin plans to sell another 1,000 to the USA’s Allies. The more hopeful marketers in Lockheed Martin are suggesting that the JSF will annihilate its competition, creating a monopoly market for up to 6,000 aircraft.

http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2009/07/12/the-f-35-jsf-predator-or-prey/

Also a link which actually works to Dry Rot's article:

http://www.businessspectator.com.au...ottliebsen-Air-defence-in-a-spin?OpenDocument

 

[Cap]

I've been doing a fair bit of reading on this since reading an articel in the business spectator early in November 09.

There seems to be a fair bit of scepticism coming out of place like Australia and some of the other smaller countries but there are a fair few sites which back the JSF as being the best thing since sliced bread its just a matter of getting them produced within something like a budget.

I'd hope like hell the project isn't to big to fail and the australian government doesn't just buy them for the sake of it, but from what I can understand from reading various internet sites alot of the arguements against the JSF are dated and have been answered by the manufacturer and the USADF

 

[DarwinRoo]

Mate you are starting to sound like you think we should only buy American, even though they keep ripping us off time and time again. I know it's beast of a tank, but what i'm saying is 70 isn't enough to defend a city let alone a country, so why bother buying any at all. The Euro Tiger is formidable, and i know which one will win if it goes up against an Abrams

I understand the whole argument is somewhat pointless as no country has the capability to invade Australia except the US, but still,it's a huge waste of money.

When the US lets us buy Raptors, then i'll be impressed. Until then, we're just treated like a 2nd rate ally.

By formidable do you mean over budget and late?

 

[Total_Juddshanks]

http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-JSF-Analysis.html

http://www.ausairpower.net/DT-SuperBug-vs-Flanker.html

http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-2008-03.html


some analysis from Australia's finest.

The bloke who runs that site is an 'interesting character.' His doctorate is not related to his enthusiasm for airplanes.

Read one article and you go, hmm okay this guy knows his stuff, but the more you read the more kooky it gets- every article on that site is some combination of -

Russian planes are nightmarishly effective/JSF dud to end all duds/Raptor is the saviour of the free world and America would practically give them away if asked/F111 should be retooled and kept in service until the sun expires.

I am not going to pretend I know enough to offer an opinion, the only observation I'd make is that the Israelis are buying JSFs. Given they are surrounded by neighbours with the petrodollars to buy up the latest russian tech, that seems to me a pretty fair indication that they might have their uses- for obvious reasons, the israelis don't mess around when it comes to arms procurement.

 

[DarwinRoo]

Also the Tiger is not an attack helicopter, it is an armed reconnaissance helicopter.

 

[stormee]

Also the Tiger is not an attack helicopter, it is an armed reconnaissance helicopter.

This. It can take 2 x 4 racks of hellfire missiles on it's external pylons, which is a good amount of firepower to bring to bear.

The only real alternative would be the Apache Longbow but really why would we buy a full blown attack helicopter that costs a huge amount to keep flying when that isnt necessarily what we were looking for in the first place.