Analysis Did Spud call it correctly. Is Hawthorns 2015 flag tainted?

[Isaac Cumming No 1]

Hawks were an incredible outfit and Spud is a spud but he's probably right. 60% of the best young players in the land were wasted on the expansion clubs. So the draft was compromised and equalisation was compromised. Who's going to benefit from compromised equalisation? The teams who just finished a successful rebuild of course. I don't see how you can deny such a watertight theory as an explanation for how a team managed to go back-to-back-to-back in the modern era.

It might be that simple in your mind but even the simplest of minds would understand that a flag isn't won in a year.

What's your knock on the 2017 flag?

Read what I said?

 

[thedreamisreal]

Read what I said?

It read to me like you're implying there's a legit knock on the 2017 flag, or nar?

 

[Isaac Cumming No 1]

It read to me like you're implying there's a legit knock on the 2017 flag, or nar?

I just dont get how you could read that in what I said.

 

[HolyWars]

I'd argue that flags are more "tainted" now than in 2015 given that those draftees are maturing. Most players (exceptions of course) only become effective after a number of years in the system. Further, if his theory is correct then shouldn't GWS be winning every single flag?

So if Frawley wants to argue that Hawthorn's 2015 flag is tainted, then so are 2016/2017/2018/2019....

 

[kaiserchief13]

Put simply, yes it is

 

[kaiserchief13]

I'd argue that flags are more "tainted" now than in 2015 given that those draftees are maturing. Most players (exceptions of course) only become effective after a number of years in the system. Further, if his theory is correct then shouldn't GWS be winning every single flag?

So if Frawley wants to argue that Hawthorn's 2015 flag is tainted, then so are 2016/2017/2018/2019....

2016 - Umpire cheats*
2017 - MCG cheats*

 

[thedreamisreal]

I just dont get how you could read that in what I said.

Literally this:

I think the OP needs to think carefully about knocking other peoples flags. Specifically it removes your credibility rubbishing other people knocking yours.

Here you imply there's a credible reason to knock our flag, so you must have one right...

I'd argue that flags are more "tainted" now than in 2015 given that those draftees are maturing.

I would have thought 50-100 games in 2015 is mature enough to make a difference.

 

[Sir_Loin]

2016 - Umpire cheats*
2017 - MCG cheats*

You’re now assigning human qualities to inanimate objects. It might be time to get some help

 

[Blue1980]

Why was Hawthorn and no one else a beneficiary of the new teams?

Surely Geelong and the Pies should of benefited just as much, being top sides when the expansion clubs came in?

 

[Isaac Cumming No 1]

Literally this:

Here you imply there's a credible reason to knock our flag, so you must have one right...

I would have thought 50-100 games in 2015 is mature enough to make a difference.

Incredibly precious.

 

[Vic pokiesmon]

Tainted ?.No. this isn't the correct term and Spud hasnt posed the real question.Can the Hawks say they we're unquestionably the best team in 2014 and 15 when they finished below Sydney and West Coast on the ladder yet we're granted a home grand final.No they can't.Home ground advantage is measureable not debateble.Victorians sides have a 19% success rate in interstate finals.

 

[thedreamisreal]

Incredibly precious.

Haha if you say so. Is there a credible reason for me to be precious then?

Cause I can think of a few reasons for Giants supporters...

 

[Isaac Cumming No 1]

Haha if you say so. Is there a credible reason for me to be precious then?

Cause I can think of a few reasons for Giants supporters...

I wish you well in your BF posting career. I wont be a part of it though.

 

[Barry_Badrinath]

Hawthorn’s opponent in the 2015 GF was West Coast. The drafts effected by expansion were 2010 and 2011.

West Coast finish dead last in 2010 and were apparently hampered by only getting picks 4 and 26 instead of 1 and 17. They used picks 4 and 26 on Gaff and Darling. They also jagged Lycett at 29. They finished 4th in 2011 so wouldn’t have had access to high picks regardless.

It made no difference in the end, unless you think they could’ve done better than Gaff, Darling and Lycett with better picks?

 

[HolyWars]

Literally this:

Here you imply there's a credible reason to knock our flag, so you must have one right...

I would have thought 50-100 games in 2015 is mature enough to make a difference.

And I'd argue 150-200 gamers would have more of an impact.

 

[Wil79]

Conjured up for ratings/headlines. They sell advertising.

 

[thedreamisreal]

I wish you well in your BF posting career. I wont be a part of it though.

Good to know, you were struggling anyway.

And I'd argue 150-200 gamers would have more of an impact.

It's too late at this point, the average AFL career is only 6 years.

Why was Hawthorn and no one else a beneficiary of the new teams?

Surely Geelong and the Pies should of benefited just as much, being top sides when the expansion clubs came in?

Maybe they did? Geelong did just fine in 2013 thru 2015 considering their window should have been closed. And Collingwood self-destructed.

 

[beta_condition]

I think it is tainted because it was at the MCG instead of Subiaco but that was not Hawthorn's fault.

It was Hawthorn home game, we defeated Fremantle the number one ranked team the week before.

 

[Off The Couch]

Mate, read the OP. I am raising a subject raised by a football/media commentator. Nothing to do with Richmond, but we were impacted by draft choices during that period for sure.

So Frawley begrudges the hawks recognising that quality draft picks were going to be a problem and instead puts a different plan in place and reaps the benefits for forward thinking

Seems legit


If you are going to put an asterisk against 15 then the same lack of drafting options would still be impacting in 16 and 17.

 

[beta_condition]

Hawks were an incredible outfit and Spud is a spud but he's probably right. 60% of the best young players in the land were wasted on the expansion clubs. So the draft was compromised and equalisation was compromised. Who's going to benefit from compromised equalisation? The teams who just finished a successful rebuild of course. I don't see how you can deny such a watertight theory as an explanation for how a team managed to go back-to-back-to-back in the modern era.

It might be that simple in your mind but even the simplest of minds would understand that a flag isn't won in a year.

What's your knock on the 2017 flag?

You're only hurting your own agenda when players are drafted they don't impact right away its 5 years down the track.... which is right about when Richmond won a flag. So if you're arguing the compromised drafts affected team balances its the Richmond flag which is the *

 

[Leviathan Pie]

Danny Frawley, my ******* good lord.

 

[thedreamisreal]

You're only hurting your own agenda when players are drafted they don't impact right away its 5 years down the track.... which is right about when Richmond won a flag. So if you're arguing the compromised drafts affected team balances its the Richmond flag which is the *

Well that suits your agenda but I would argue it's more like 3-5 years and the draft was compromised in 2010 and 11 (when Richmond were on the bottom).

 

[ClokesShankedIt]

Frawley's opinion is unfair on Hawthorn as they played to the rules the afl set. Clarko didnt force the afl to compromise multiple drafts to give fat andy's twin abortions a generations worth of early picks

 

[citizen-erased]

The Spud/Hawks 2015 flag thread has inspired this.
And certainly not a thread for bashing the hawks flags.

The question:
Who challenges the hawks if the expansion clubs didn't come into the game.
Who lost out the most?

Below are the best onfield teams from 2013-15 for any club (hawks included)
Redoing the drafts from 2010 to 2013 - bolded the player and bracketed the one they lose
Mini draft 17yo's placed in the following draft
Trades undone to GWS and GCS.
Poachings reversed
I haven't taken liberties (well too many) with bringing later draft picks in earlier
Some players may be named twice if they moved during the period

Adel:
Laird Talia Kelly
Van Berlo Davis Vince
M.Crouch Thompson
Wright Walker Douglas
Betts Day Lynch
Jacobs Dangerfield Sloane
-Lose B.Smith in 2010 draft for Day.
-Regain Davis from GWS

Bris:
Golby Maguire patfull
Harwood Clarke Hanley
Shiel (lose Longer) Rockliff Bennell (lose Polec)
Zorko Brown Adcock
McGrath Merrett J.Martin (lose Aish)
Martin B.Crouch (lose Mayes) Guthrie (lose Lester)

Carl:
Scotland Jamison Tuohy
Simpson Henderson Docherty (Lose Bootsma)
Murphy Wines (lose Menzel) Gibbs
Caddy (Lose Watson) Waite Garlett
Thomas Casboult Yarran
Kruezer Cripps Judd

Coll:
Shaw Reid Goldsack
Toovey Brown Williams
Seedsman Pendles Billings (lose Scharenberg)
Elliott Bont (lose Freeman) Young
Sidebottom White Blair
Grundy Swan Beams
-Gain Shaw back. Lose Adams & Treloar

Ess:
Hibberd Hooker Carlisle
Stanton Hurley Dempsey
Heppell Adams (Lose Kav) Z.Merrett
D.Smith (lose J.Merrett) Daniher Zaharakis
Fantasia Bellchambers Chapman
Ryder Watson Myers

Freo
Spurr Dawson Duffield
Pearce Johnson B.Ellis (lose Crozier)
Barlow Mundy Conca (lose Pitt)
Coniglio (lose Sheridan)Pavlich Ballantyne
Walters McCarthy (lose Bennell) Mayne
Sandilands Fyfe Neale

Geel:
Mackie Lonergan Hunt
Enright Taylor Kelly
Christensen Selwood Sheed (lose Caddy)
Ablett Tom Lynch (lose Smedts) Varcoe
Motlop Hawkins SJ
Z.Smith (lose Guthrie) Duncan Bartel
-Regain Ablett from GCS

Hawks
Stratton Lake Duryea
Birchall Gibson Hodge
I.Smith Mitchell Burgoyne
Gunston Roughead Breust
Puopolo Hale Rioli
McEvoy Lewis Shiels

Melb
Dunn Frawley Jetta
Howe McDonald Vince
Treloar (lose Salem) Prestia (lose Cook) Scully
O'Meara (lose Toumpas) Hogan (lose Tyson) Cross
Watts Dawes Kent
Gawn Jones Viney
-Regain Scully.

Port
Trengove Carlile Jonas
Polec (lose Jacobs) Hombsch Pittard
Boak Whitfield (lose Wines) Hartlett
Wingard Westhoff Gray
Impey Schultz White
Lobbe Ebert Z.Jones (pick trade from expansion club)

Roos
McDonald Thomson Gibson
MacMillan Tarrant Jacobs (lose Harper)
Wells Cunnington Hoskin Elliot (Lose McKenzie)
Harvey C.Dixon (lose Atley) Ziebell
Thomas Brown Petrie
Goldstein Swallow Adams

Saints
Gwilt Fisher Vlaustin (pick trade from expansion club)
Montagna Gilbert Atley (Lose J.Cripps)
Savage Tyson (lose Ross) Hayes
Armitage Riewoldt Newnes
Acres Bruce Schneider
Stanley Kelly (lose Billings) Steven

Swans
Rampe Grundy Shaw
McVeigh Reid Brodie Smith (Lose Lamb)
Jetta JPK Salem (Lose Jones)
Parker Franklin Rohan
Goodes Tippett McGlynn
Mumford Hanneberry Jack
Gonna assume Mumford stays even with Buddy

Tigers
Chaplin Rance Tomlinson (lose Lose Elton)
Grimes Newman K.Kolodashnij (lose Lennon)
Gaff (lose Conca) Cotchin Houli
Stringer (lose Vlaustin) Riewoldt Lloyd
Edwards J.Cameron (lose Ellis) Deledio
Hickey (lose Batchelor) Miles Martin

Eagles
Butler Schofield Gov
Hurn MacKenzie Scharenberg (Lose Sheed)
Masten D.Swallow (lose Gaff) Rosa
Cripps (lose Lycett) Darling Wellingham
Le Cras JJK T.Greene (lose Newman)
NN Priddis Shuey

Dogs
Wood Talia Morris
Murphy Roughead Boyd
JJ Libba Hunter
Wallis Patton (lose Smith) Dalhaus
Picken Boyd (lose Bont) Dickson
Minson Ward Macrae
Regain Ward

 

[HolyWars]

It's too late at this point, the average AFL career is only 6 years.

Exactly.

The ones who are seen to be viable continue beyond this point and generally peak in their mid/late 20s.