Review Expansion club list build composition

[The Nostradamus]

Ash Browne mentioned recently that there’s a few AFLW players who will be keen to play under Goddard again and those who started with our VFL women’s team who will want to get back to the HFC.

I’m not sure how true that is, but I love listening to Bec, so hopefully he’s onto something.

Looking back on this now which AFLW players has bec actually lured back that Ashley Browne claimed she would

 

[Lore]

I mean, here's a list of everyone who played at Adelaide in 2017 and 2018:

Australian Football - Adelaide WFC Football Club - Every Player

australianfootball.com

Looking down the list, not too many familiar names on the list in the sticky post.

I think Goddard might have had better luck poaching if Hawthorn hadn't entered the league at the same time as Port Adelaide. Anyone looking for opportunity can go there without moving interstate.

There are some Northern Territory players at Hawthorn now that presumably had something to do with Goddard, but only a few.

Like Essendon, Hawthorn seems to have stockpiled a lot of players they liked into their VFLW team and got them to nominate for the draft last year so they'd be available as Open Age signings now, so most of their players are coming from Hawthorn VFLW. And of course, Goddard has been coaching their VFLW team so that makes some level of sense right?

You’re going to get the same response that you got the first time.

I’m not going to do a deep dive into who Bec has had contact with as a coach, just to see if Ash Browne was right or wrong.

Who really cares at this point.

I gave you the OP btw

 

[Lore]

It was also regarding VFLW.

Eight then I guess?

Signings so far:

1. Bridget Deed - Eastern Ranges/Hawthorn VFLW (Open Age)
2. Zoe Barbakos - Sandringham Dragons (Open Age)
3. Sophie Locke - Port Melbourne VFLW (Open Age)
4. Dominique Carbone - Hawthorn VFLW (Open Age)
5. Eliza Shannon - Hawthorn VFLW (Open Age)
6. Tegan Cunningham - Hawthorn VFLW (Open Age)
7. Jess Duffin - North Melbourne/Tasmania (AFLW Sign & Trade)
8. Tilly Lucas-Rodd - St Kilda (AFLW Sign & Trade)
9. Janet Baird - Gold Coast (AFLW Sign & Trade)
10. Louise Stephenson - GWS (AFLW Sign & Trade)
11. Akec Makur Chuot - Richmond (AFLW Sign & Trade)
12. Jenna Richardson - Hawthorn VFLW (Open Age)
13. Tamara Luke - Hawthorn VFLW (Open Age)
14. Tahlia Fellows - Casey VFLW (Open Age)
15. Sarah Perkins - Gold Coast (AFLW Sign & Trade)
16. Aileen Gilroy - North Melbourne (AFLW Sign & Trade)
17. Ainslie Kemp - Hawthorn VFLW (Open Age)
18. Isabelle Porter - Hawthorn VFLW (Open Age)
19. Catherine Brown - Hawthorn VFLW (Open Age)

 

[RedmanWasHere]

9 if you include Sarah Perkins from the Adelaide days.

 

[Lore]

You guys care too much.

If the resources are there, it only takes 5 seconds

Woody has definitely been using her contacts to get us players at Essendon so it's not a big deal anyway.

 

[Teen Wolf]

Woody has definitely been using her contacts to get us players at Essendon so it's not a big deal anyway.

None of the current* AFLW players recruited by Hawthorn are returning to their old coach or old club, except Perkins. So it wouldn't really be accurate to say that Goddard's contacts have been much of a factor.

I daresay it's possible that some NM supporters may have a problem with that (knowing two players have already moved there and maybe more soon). And I would point out North's inaugural list build only featured 2 genuine Melbourne Uni recruits in Kearney and Ashmore, despite a lot of hoopla at the time that suggested otherwise.

*as in they were on an AFLW list last season

 

[Lore]

None of the current* AFLW players recruited by Hawthorn are returning to their old coach or old club, except Perkins. So it wouldn't really be accurate to say that Goddard's contacts have been much of a factor.

I daresay it's possible that some NM supporters may have a problem with that (knowing two players have already moved there and maybe more soon). And I would point out North's inaugural list build only featured 2 genuine Melbourne Uni recruits in Kearney and Ashmore, despite a lot of hoopla at the time that suggested otherwise.

*as in they were on an AFLW list last season

I think you are either agreeing with me or you didn't read my post above

 

[Teen Wolf]

I think you are either agreeing with me or you didn't read my post above

The speculation was about AFLW players leaving their clubs and returning to Hawthorn where they had previously played VFLW, so no I don't agree with your above post claiming they've signed eight (or nine) of those. At the moment it's one.

 

[Lore]

The speculation was about AFLW players leaving their clubs and returning to Hawthorn where they had previously played VFLW, so no I don't agree with your above post claiming they've signed eight (or nine) of those. At the moment it's one.

No, that's definitely not what I said. You must have read my posts wrong.

Try again:

I mean, here's a list of everyone who played at Adelaide in 2017 and 2018:

Australian Football - Adelaide WFC Football Club - Every Player

australianfootball.com

Looking down the list, not too many familiar names on the list in the sticky post.

I think Goddard might have had better luck poaching if Hawthorn hadn't entered the league at the same time as Port Adelaide. Anyone looking for opportunity can go there without moving interstate.

There are some Northern Territory players at Hawthorn now that presumably had something to do with Goddard, but only a few.

Like Essendon, Hawthorn seems to have stockpiled a lot of players they liked into their VFLW team and got them to nominate for the draft last year so they'd be available as Open Age signings now, so most of their players are coming from Hawthorn VFLW. And of course, Goddard has been coaching their VFLW team so that makes some level of sense right?



I gave you the OP btw

 

[Teen Wolf]

No, that's definitely not what I said. You must have read my posts wrong.

Try again:

I know what you said, and then you counted players elevated from the VFLW team.

But the Ashley Browne speculation "regarding VFLW" wasn't about players being elevated from the VFLW team. It was about AFLW players leaving their club to return to Hawthorn where they had previously played VFLW.

 

[Lore]

I know what you said, and then you counted players elevated from the VFLW team.

But the Ashley Browne speculation "regarding VFLW" wasn't about players being elevated from the VFLW team. It was about AFLW players leaving their club to return to Hawthorn where they had previously played VFLW.

I don’t have a copy of what Ash Browne said and was no longer responding directly to it.

I was making a comparison to Essendon’s list build and talking about clubs stockpiling players in their VFLW teams to elevate them later. This is called having a conversation.

 

[The Nostradamus]

None of the current* AFLW players recruited by Hawthorn are returning to their old coach or old club, except Perkins. So it wouldn't really be accurate to say that Goddard's contacts have been much of a factor.

I daresay it's possible that some NM supporters may have a problem with that (knowing two players have already moved there and maybe more soon). And I would point out North's inaugural list build only featured 2 genuine Melbourne Uni recruits in Kearney and Ashmore, despite a lot of hoopla at the time that suggested otherwise.

*as in they were on an AFLW list last season

Yep I had a feeling Goddard was going to struggle to get aflw players she’s coached to come over.

She’s only coached adelaide and with port coming in she has no sway

Which is why I was surprised Ashley Browne thought otherwise

 

[Teen Wolf]

I don’t have a copy of what Ash Browne said and was no longer responding directly to it.

I was making a comparison to Essendon’s list build and talking about clubs stockpiling players in their VFLW teams to elevate them later. This is called having a conversation.

That's called a non sequitur.

But if we want to have a conversation rooted in reality regarding Hawthorn's list build, we'd be talking about how much of a horror show it's been so far, rather than sugarcoating it with fantastic tales about stockpiling as if signing so many state league players was all part of the plan.

The vast majority of their open age signings are players who had already nominated for the draft before last year. So the players who nominated again were solely trying to get picked up by a current AFLW team. They weren't nominating for Hawthorn's sake.

 

[Aristarchus]

That's called a non sequitur.

But if we want to have a conversation rooted in reality regarding Hawthorn's list build, we'd be talking about how much of a horror show it's been so far, rather than sugarcoating it with fantastic tales about stockpiling as if signing so many state league players was all part of the plan.

The vast majority of their open age signings are players who had already nominated for the draft before last year. So the players who nominated again were solely trying to get picked up by a current AFLW team. They weren't nominating for Hawthorn's sake.

Any conversation rooted in reality wouldn't immediately describe their list build as a "horror show" imo.

It's been fine. You can see what they've been aiming for: core of the team from the VFL side to help with team chemistry and continuity (that just finished minor premiers), there's experience at both ends with youth in the middle led by TLR. Clear strategy. No star names, sure, but no need for alarm bells needed unless you're basing your whole opinion of how they've been building the list over last 12 months based on one rumour from one journo months ago.

 

[Teen Wolf]

Any conversation rooted in reality wouldn't immediately describe their list build as a "horror show" imo.

It's been fine. You can see what they've been aiming for: core of the team from the VFL side to help with team chemistry and continuity (that just finished minor premiers), there's experience at both ends with youth in the middle led by TLR. Clear strategy. No star names, sure, but no need for alarm bells needed unless you're basing your whole opinion of how they've been building the list over last 12 months based on one rumour from one journo months ago.

Well they didn't finish as minor premiers, and that's the smallest mistake you've made in a short paragraph riddled with fallacies. The old "team chemistry and continuity" chestnut sounded foolish even before Geelong etc made a mockery of it, repeatedly.

At least Cashion and co. haven't got sucked into actually believing such nonsense. If they were under any illusions with regards to how dire the situation really is, they wouldn't be scrambling at the 11th hour with desperate marquee-sized offers to... solid players. Their aim was to get players like Bates, Lambert, Beeson, Moody, Antonio and Bowen as their core (probably because they didn't want to score 15 points a week and go 1-9) but unfortunately missed out on them and have had to overload on state league players out of necessity, not by some grand design.

My opinion is based on the same basic observations that allowed me to correctly predict five of the first six expansion teams were in for a world of pain (and the other one would be merely good, rather than invincible) despite being told different by such wide-eyed optimists not unlike yourself.

 

[Aristarchus]

Well they didn't finish as minor premiers, and that's the smallest mistake you've made in a short paragraph riddled with fallacies. The old "team chemistry and continuity" chestnut sounded foolish even before Geelong etc made a mockery of it, repeatedly.

At least Cashion and co. haven't got sucked into actually believing such nonsense. If they were under any illusions with regards to how dire the situation really is, they wouldn't be scrambling at the 11th hour with desperate marquee-sized offers to... solid players. Their aim was to get players like Bates, Lambert, Beeson, Moody, Antonio and Bowen as their core (probably because they didn't want to score 15 points a week and go 1-9) but unfortunately missed out on them and have had to overload on state league players out of necessity, not by some grand design.

My opinion is based on the same basic observations that allowed me to correctly predict five of the first six expansion teams were in for a world of pain (and the other one would be merely good, rather than invincible) despite being told different by such wide-eyed optimists not unlike yourself.

Ok mate

 

[Stan Judkins]

Well they didn't finish as minor premiers, and that's the smallest mistake you've made in a short paragraph riddled with fallacies. The old "team chemistry and continuity" chestnut sounded foolish even before Geelong etc made a mockery of it, repeatedly.

At least Cashion and co. haven't got sucked into actually believing such nonsense. If they were under any illusions with regards to how dire the situation really is, they wouldn't be scrambling at the 11th hour with desperate marquee-sized offers to... solid players. Their aim was to get players like Bates, Lambert, Beeson, Moody, Antonio and Bowen as their core (probably because they didn't want to score 15 points a week and go 1-9) but unfortunately missed out on them and have had to overload on state league players out of necessity, not by some grand design.

My opinion is based on the same basic observations that allowed me to correctly predict five of the first six expansion teams were in for a world of pain (and the other one would be merely good, rather than invincible) despite being told different by such wide-eyed optimists not unlike yourself.

yeah agree with all your post Teen Wolf

that old chestnut of state league players being able to transfer their prowess into the AFLW has been shown up, time and time again
being generous you can halve the disposals & impact of these league players when they get into the big league

you're right that out of the 4 clubs only 1 Marquee player was poached, Maddy Prespakis
Erin Phillips is romantic, but she's not the player she was a year or 2 ago

the 4 new clubs are in a world of pain, takes a year or 2 to build up some sort of synergy on field
my club knows this from experience, we got Conti, Brennan & Frederick, some solid VFLW players & poached some middling players and it was like wow we've got a really good side
the reality was no we didn't have a good side

i wish the new teams good luck, but yeah they're going to need it

 

[Lore]

yeah agree with all your post Teen Wolf

that old chestnut of state league players being able to transfer their prowess into the AFLW has been shown up, time and time again
being generous you can halve the disposals & impact of these league players when they get into the big league

you're right that out of the 4 clubs only 1 Marquee player was poached, Maddy Prespakis
Erin Phillips is romantic, but she's not the player she was a year or 2 ago

the 4 new clubs are in a world of pain, takes a year or 2 to build up some sort of synergy on field
my club knows this from experience, we got Conti, Brennan & Frederick, some solid VFLW players & poached some middling players and it was like wow we've got a really good side
the reality was no we didn't have a good side

i wish the new teams good luck, but yeah they're going to need it

If having three marquee players at your club left you in a world of pain, then it’s clearly not the panacea you would have us think it is.

We will be in a world of pain anyway, with or without marquee players because we’re going to have 30 players who have mostly known each other for 12 weeks of a part-time pre-season under a brand new coach with a brand new lack of game plan, and who doesn’t know really any of them either.

Although, that also depends on how you define “world of pain”. As an Essendon supporter I can tell you that many of us actually found the circumstances of our 2016 season quite liberating, even enjoyable, despite having a side akin to a VFL team.

It really does depend on your expectations, and the same can easily be true of an AFLW expansion side if you’re realistic about it.

These expansion teams are going to make up the bottom 4, pretty much guaranteed. Whether they still make up the bottom four in five or ten years from now is the thing they ought to be concerning themselves with.

On top of that, each club only has 2-3 Tier 1 spots and six Tier 2 spots, and they all just got their pay doubled with the latest CBA. I don’t think it’s particularly difficult to figure out why expansion teams are struggling to get more than 8 AFLW players to commit to play for them, and generally not from the top few clubs, in these circumstances.

Perhaps your expectations of these expansion list builds need just as much temperance as that strawman’s expectations of immediate success.

 

[Stan Judkins]

If having three marquee players at your club left you in a world of pain, then it’s clearly not the panacea you would have us think it is.

We will be in a world of pain anyway, with or without marquee players because we’re going to have 30 players who have mostly known each other for 12 weeks of a part-time pre-season under a brand new coach with a brand new lack of game plan, and who doesn’t know really any of them either.

Although, that also depends on how you define “world of pain”. As an Essendon supporter I can tell you that many of us actually found the circumstances of our 2016 season quite liberating, even enjoyable, despite having a side akin to a VFL team.

It really does depend on your expectations, and the same can easily be true of an AFLW expansion side if you’re realistic about it.

These expansion teams are going to make up the bottom 4, pretty much guaranteed. Whether they still make up the bottom four in five or ten years from now is the thing they ought to be concerning themselves with.

On top of that, each club only has 2-3 Tier 1 spots and six Tier 2 spots, and they all just got their pay doubled with the latest CBA. I don’t think it’s particularly difficult to figure out why expansion teams are struggling to get more than 8 AFLW players to commit to play for them, and generally not from the top few clubs, in these circumstances.

Perhaps your expectations of these expansion list builds need just as much temperance as that strawman’s expectations of immediate success.

yeah fair points Lore

will Sydney have a strong list in 4 - 5 years ? doesn't look like it, considering the state of good players in NSW region
will Hawthorn, Essendon & Port have a strong list in 4 - 5 years ? probably but i'm not betting my house on it
all 4 will have alot of top picks in the next few drafts

the thing that bothers me is the 4 new teams had ample time to plan their lists and the best they could do was Prespakis between them
sure they gave it a red hot crack, but the lack of their success has me worried & Prespakis only moved on the basis of following her childhood club
what happened to Port pillaging the Crows list ? didn't happen at all, terrible outcome for all the other teams

as you said there's only so many tier 1 & 2 spots to go around, but most if not all target players stayed due to the "wanting to stay at original club for team success"
rather than a money reason, so tiers weren't as much a factor as it seems
i read or heard that Emily Bates was going to be the highest paid player in the league if she moved to Hawthorn. she didn't budge

my "world of pain" point is directed at possible 20 point scores maximum & 0 - 10 or at best 1 - 9 season(s)
this is going to be alot worse than the AFL's GC & GWS expansion in the men's
i can see record low scores, record scores being kicked and record highest winning margins being dished out

this last expansion had all the hallmarks of being the best yet, alas it has turned into probably the worst
like i've said a few times i wish the 4 new teams good luck, they're going to need it

 

[Teen Wolf]

If having three marquee players at your club left you in a world of pain, then it’s clearly not the panacea you would have us think it is.

It's the most important thing by a huge margin (even more so in comparison to the men's), the stats are emphatic about this.

If a club's tier 2 and 3 is really weak then, sure, they're going to struggle no matter what. But even teams with a strong tier 2 and 3 have been pretty awful when tier 1 isn't up to scratch. Hence the transformation of, say, GWS with the addition of Eva and Gum in 2018. Or Fremantle once Bowers debuted in 2019. Or likewise Collingwood in 2020, with the addition of Davey and return of Molloy. To mention just three of many examples.

It really does depend on your expectations, and the same can easily be true of an AFLW expansion side if you’re realistic about it.

These expansion teams are going to make up the bottom 4, pretty much guaranteed. Whether they still make up the bottom four in five or ten years from now is the thing they ought to be concerning themselves with.

On top of that, each club only has 2-3 Tier 1 spots and six Tier 2 spots, and they all just got their pay doubled with the latest CBA. I don’t think it’s particularly difficult to figure out why expansion teams are struggling to get more than 8 AFLW players to commit to play for them, and generally not from the top few clubs, in these circumstances.

Perhaps your expectations of these expansion list builds need just as much temperance as that strawman’s expectations of immediate success.

The realistic expectation is Hawthorn and Sydney won't win more than a game per season until they recruit some genuine marquee players from other clubs. But it shouldn't be unreasonable to expect that the 18 teams each have something like 2 of the top 36 players. The distribution is currently nowhere near that.

"5 or 10 years from now" is another trap. Nothing will change if the marquee players aren't there. Having sufficient top talent set the standards and maintain competitiveness is what helps ensure a) enough lower tier players properly develop into higher tier players; and b) enough young guns want to stay rather than join a decent team.

 

[Lore]

It's the most important thing by a huge margin (even more so in comparison to the men's), the stats are emphatic about this.

If a club's tier 2 and 3 is really weak then, sure, they're going to struggle no matter what. But even teams with a strong tier 2 and 3 have been pretty awful when tier 1 isn't up to scratch. Hence the transformation of, say, GWS with the addition of Eva and Gum in 2018. Or Fremantle once Bowers debuted in 2019. Or likewise Collingwood in 2020, with the addition of Davey and return of Molloy. To mention just three of many examples.


The realistic expectation is Hawthorn and Sydney won't win more than a game per season until they recruit some genuine marquee players from other clubs. But it shouldn't be unreasonable to expect that the 18 teams each have something like 2 of the top 36 players. The distribution is currently nowhere near that.

"5 or 10 years from now" is another trap. Nothing will change if the marquee players aren't there. Having sufficient top talent set the standards and maintain competitiveness is what helps ensure a) enough lower tier players properly develop into higher tier players; and b) enough young guns want to stay rather than join a decent team.

Well done, you really knocked the stuffing out of that strawman. Points for conviction though.

 

[Stan Judkins]

Well done, you really knocked the stuffing out of that strawman. Points for conviction though.

​

hey Lore is Teen Wolf the strawman ? if so, who's the tinman, lion and scarecrow ????
also can i be Dorothy ??? please, please

 

[Lore]

​

hey Lore is Teen Wolf the strawman ? if so, who's the tinman, lion and scarecrow ????
also can i be Dorothy ??? please, please

There’s no place like home Toto

 

[Stan Judkins]

It's the most important thing by a huge margin (even more so in comparison to the men's), the stats are emphatic about this.

If a club's tier 2 and 3 is really weak then, sure, they're going to struggle no matter what. But even teams with a strong tier 2 and 3 have been pretty awful when tier 1 isn't up to scratch. Hence the transformation of, say, GWS with the addition of Eva and Gum in 2018. Or Fremantle once Bowers debuted in 2019. Or likewise Collingwood in 2020, with the addition of Davey and return of Molloy. To mention just three of many examples.


The realistic expectation is Hawthorn and Sydney won't win more than a game per season until they recruit some genuine marquee players from other clubs. But it shouldn't be unreasonable to expect that the 18 teams each have something like 2 of the top 36 players. The distribution is currently nowhere near that.

"5 or 10 years from now" is another trap. Nothing will change if the marquee players aren't there. Having sufficient top talent set the standards and maintain competitiveness is what helps ensure a) enough lower tier players properly develop into higher tier players; and b) enough young guns want to stay rather than join a decent team.

yes 100% to all that

if we (Tigers) didn't have Conti and Brennan we'd be in a whole lot of trouble

with 18 teams and say 2 top tier players per team, if you have 2 players in your team that are top 36, it makes a huge difference
if you double the 36 players to 72 that's when the discrepancy starts to grow with the top 6 teams dominating these top 72 players on their lists

 

[Teen Wolf]

Well done, you really knocked the stuffing out of that strawman. Points for conviction though.

That reminds me: who in the thread is asking for, in your words, "immediate success"? Success is certainly no less than making finals, in anybody's footy dictionary.

I've just been talking about what Hawthorn needs in order to be somewhat competitive--i.e. if not on Richmond's level, then at least Essendon's. Characterising that as an unreasonable expectation actually is textbook strawman arguing.