Opinion First Choice Ruck - Pitto vs TDK

[bigblueboy]

TDK will be our number 1 ruck.
Pittonet to give him a chop out from the bench and play more minutes against the more mature opposition rucks.
Doesn't need to be any more complicated than that.

 

[Arr0w]

I agree with a number of posters suggesting Harry doing chopout stints in the ruck, but given the knee injuries he has had, I suspect the club prefer not to take that risk

No reason he can't take some stoppages in the forward half, but I wouldn't risk him at centre bounces

 

[Sweet Seventeen]

I agree with a number of posters suggesting Harry doing chopout stints in the ruck, but given the knee injuries he has had, I suspect the club prefer not to take that risk

No reason he can't that some stoppages in the forward half, but I wouldn't risk him at centre bounces

You are most probably on the money Arrow. Hopefully he is and will continue to work on his goal kicking routine. He is a former Coleman medallist and we do need him being productive in front of the two big sticks. I will back him in to be productive and kick 50 next year.

 

[agro]

TDK will be our number 1 ruck.
Pittonet to give him a chop out from the bench and play more minutes against the more mature opposition rucks.
Doesn't need to be any more complicated than that.

 

[Soapy V]

I’m told Pittonet has knee issues that need to be managed. Had a clean out again after season.

 

[bmaurizio]

Neither option is exciting as dedicated Ruck,
one would have to select TDK, given Pitto’s durability issues and lack of mobility around the ground.

 

[Soapy V]

My personal opinion is that TDK will go to another level next year and be one of the best Rucks in the competition in 2024

It’s how we support him I’m not sure about

 

[Coona Blues]

My personal opinion is that TDK will go to another level next year and be one of the best Rucks in the competition on 2024

It’s how we support him I’m not sure about

I tend to agree. Plenty undersell Pitto, but I suspect Tom goes past him. Still think Pitto plays a few games in the prime role. I think we will mix and match a bit through the year. TDK could be a quality key forward, and after he shook off the yips in the later half of the year is ready to blossom in either role.

His future is as a ruck, but 2024 will be the perfect time to somewhat explore both options. Unless we count JSOS, we don’t have another ready to go key forward if Harry or Charlie go down. Also having the ability to push either Charlie or H. up the ground to change things up, or break a tag would be excellent.

Pitto will struggle to maintain a spot if Tom becomes first choice ruck. He is not one who could play 50% forward. Thinking that in 2025 we likely have Lemmey and O’Keeffe both pushing for the second ruck position, Lemmey being forward first and Huddo competitive and a great kick at goal.

 

[JustOneTime]

Surely we get our answer this year, one way or another. If not then we will need to start adding / hoping for another.

If they increase the bench then i think we need speed, not height. Some exceptions like Brisbane/Dees/Dockers.

 

[teddy-hopkins]

TDK could push for AA selection this year. He has the ability - it's just a matter of whether or not the stars align for him.

Pitto looks like he's just one of those guys who is either on the comeback from an injury or actually out injured. We haven't seen the best of him.

I still think we're one seasoned ruckman short on our list. With Pitto being so injury prone and the others not ready we're entering another season where I expect TDK and SOS to share the duties for a fair chunk of the season.

Harry isn't going anywhere near the ruck. He's too valuable as a forward and too useless as a ruck.

 

[JuddgementDay]

My personal opinion is that TDK will go to another level next year and be one of the best Rucks in the competition in 2024

It’s how we support him I’m not sure about

I think TDK is tracking like English, given that he’s two years younger I would expect our #1 ruck to emerge in 2024 - akin to English’s 2022 year

 

[BlueJet]

You may get similar output forward from tdk to jack as 3rd tall forward, but you're getting much less output around the ground from pitto than tdk as main ruck.

Pitt is at best an anchor to the side once the ball has been bounced. More likely he is a nett negative result as his opponent will enjoy numerous easy marks, often in their forward 50 as Pitt trails a few metres behind.

TDK main ruck, jack as chop out unless Harry gets better over summer. 5 on the bench is irrelevant as every other team has 5 so if we're carrying an extra slow, they're still going to be quicker.

Pitt is at best, our number 1 ruck.
TDK is hit & miss in there.
JSOS gets beaten but gets an extra handful of possessions.
The trade off is whether the ascendancy at the stoppage is worth that extra handful of possessions - I don't see it as a clear benefit either way & feel all need to put in work to be considered locks in the side.

 

[Juddernaut08]

Pitt is at best, our number 1 ruck.
TDK is hit & miss in there.
JSOS gets beaten but gets an extra handful of possessions.
The trade off is whether the ascendancy at the stoppage is worth that extra handful of possessions - I don't see it as a clear benefit either way & feel all need to put in work to be considered locks in the side.

I feel like this is true, when all fit and based on exposed 2023 form.

For 2024, there are a few assumpitons people are making:
1) TDK will take one or more steps towards the next level
2) Pitto will be at least somewhat injury prone and/or miss time
3) The Jacks (Martin and JSOS) will be available for most games in 2024

If all those assumptions are true, then I think we should play TDK for 18 or so games as the solo ruck.
-Bring in Pitto for 5 games to either rest TDK or JSOS.
-JSOS should start on the bench, and play another 3rd tall forward + 20% ruck.
-Martin should start as our 3rd target up forward.

 

[Chookaradley]

I think as different as they are, by definition they are both number 1 ruckman. I expect like most TDK to really break out next season. Despite signing a long term deal I don't think that looks good for Pitto

 

[BlueTongue]

My personal opinion is that TDK will go to another level next year and be one of the best Rucks in the competition in 2024

It’s how we support him I’m not sure about

Yep , I agree. He has been improving a lot more now his body is bigger and it doesnt seem to have affected his spring. This year + finals + short contract will see him take the next step to top 5 I'd say.

 

[TerryWallet]

Imo, as long as our midfield consists of Cripps, Hewett, Kennedy, Cerra and Doc....then our TEAM benefits greatly from 2 genuine ruckmen.

I think both TDK and Pitt can and will improve on this years output next year, but even at this years output they are needed to give our mids a 50% chance of winning the ball. If we give them a 50% chance, they will win it 60% of the time. That's huge. They are actually a good combo.

We dont want our mids chasing tail...attempting to chase tail, for large parts of any game.

 

[JustOneTime]

To put into a harsh context a little bit of what Terry is saying, both TDK/Pitto fare so badly as ruckman vs their counterparts when you check the stats, that we need two of them to get by. Arguably neither Pitto/TDK are yet in the top 15 rucks in the comp, probably even worse than that.

Of course as supporters we read into it many things like TDK is about to turn the corner and Pitto was injury affected. Either it is true or not the but the data says for 22/23 they were weak when ranked vs their peers. It is what it is.

It is a reasonable proposition that we need two to cope and I think that too at times and for some matchups (Gawn/Darcy). The counter argument is that they are our two worst players in the 22 and holding us back and it is better to take into account our strengths elsewhere (i think this most of the time). Pies have no key forward but adapt to their strengths. Carlton should simply find a way to excel without being forced to play two weak links.

Overall, I'd prefer Carlton show ingenuity and work with our strengths and good players than labour with our plodders.

When TDK matures and hits his straps, and when Pitto becomes a force after recovering from injuries, then well, good on them. They being gifted games personally for being not that good. I personally want to keep the gifting to just one of them.

 

[Earls Smother]

To put into a harsh context a little bit of what Terry is saying, both TDK/Pitto fare so badly as ruckman vs their counterparts when you check the stats, that we need two of them to get by. Arguably neither Pitto/TDK are yet in the top 15 rucks in the comp, probably even worse than that.

Of course as supporters we read into it many things like TDK is about to turn the corner and Pitto was injury affected. Either it is true or not the but the data says for 22/23 they were weak when ranked vs their peers. It is what it is.

It is a reasonable proposition that we need two to cope and I think that too at times and for some matchups (Gawn/Darcy). The counter argument is that they are our two worst players in the 22 and holding us back and it is better to take into account our strengths elsewhere (i think this most of the time). Pies have no key forward but adapt to their strengths. Carlton should simply find a way to excel without being forced to play two weak links.

Overall, I'd prefer Carlton show ingenuity and work with our strengths and good players than labour with our plodders.

When TDK matures and hits his straps, and when Pitto becomes a force after recovering from injuries, then well, good on them. They being gifted games personally for being not that good. I personally want to keep the gifting to just one of them.

It will be interesting to see what we do. Teams are notorious for reacting to their last loss (when it's a final).

Terry is right, the 2 of them suit the way our team has played. BUT, do we continue on that path, or adjust a bit?

The ruck stats from that Brisbane final are damning and arguably cost us the game. The key numbers are:

Hitouts. HTA. Ruck Contests. Shots at goal.
Omac 38, 14, 85, 3
Pitto 17, 5, 59, 0
TDK 16, 2, 41, 1
Daniher 3, 0, 15, 3

Brisbane had double the hitouts to advantage and 6 shots at goal to our 1. That is a flogging. Daniher did virtually nothing as a ruckman other than physically attend 15 contests, but he was a dangerous forward. We had 2 blokes doing the job of their 1 - which is ok if you are winning the battle. If you're not, then you are basically one player down.

JSOS can easily match what Daniher did in that game, which was attend 15% of ruck contests and not win a HTA. Pitto's knee situation appears chronic (Soapy mentioned this), which means we are heavily reliant on TDK being the main man.

 

[marcmurphy3]

It will be interesting to see what we do. Teams are notorious for reacting to their last loss (when it's a final).

Terry is right, the 2 of them suit the way our team has played. BUT, do we continue on that path, or adjust a bit?

The ruck stats from that Brisbane final are damning and arguably cost us the game. The key numbers are:

Hitouts. HTA. Ruck Contests. Shots at goal.
Omac 38, 14, 85, 3
Pitto 17, 5, 59, 0
TDK 16, 2, 41, 1
Daniher 3, 0, 15, 3

Brisbane had double the hitouts to advantage and 6 shots at goal to our 1. That is a flogging. Daniher did virtually nothing as a ruckman other than physically attend 15 contests, but he was a dangerous forward. We had 2 blokes doing the job of their 1 - which is ok if you are winning the battle. If you're not, then you are basically one player down.

JSOS can easily match what Daniher did in that game, which was attend 15% of ruck contests and not win a HTA. Pitto's knee situation appears chronic (Soapy mentioned this), which means we are heavily reliant on TDK being the main man.

It was a big factor in the loss. If we play 2 genuine ruckman we are at a run disadvantage against pretty much every other team in the competition because nobody else does. So we really need to dominate the ruck. If that doesn't happen it's a bit if a disaster. Worse in the prelim because OMAC isn't even top tier.

Trust the coaches to get it right. I suspect we will see a mix of approaches next year. Will also depend on interchange rules and what other teams are doing.

 

[marcmurphy3]

To put into a harsh context a little bit of what Terry is saying, both TDK/Pitto fare so badly as ruckman vs their counterparts when you check the stats, that we need two of them to get by. Arguably neither Pitto/TDK are yet in the top 15 rucks in the comp, probably even worse than that.

Of course as supporters we read into it many things like TDK is about to turn the corner and Pitto was injury affected. Either it is true or not the but the data says for 22/23 they were weak when ranked vs their peers. It is what it is.

It is a reasonable proposition that we need two to cope and I think that too at times and for some matchups (Gawn/Darcy). The counter argument is that they are our two worst players in the 22 and holding us back and it is better to take into account our strengths elsewhere (i think this most of the time). Pies have no key forward but adapt to their strengths. Carlton should simply find a way to excel without being forced to play two weak links.

Overall, I'd prefer Carlton show ingenuity and work with our strengths and good players than labour with our plodders.

When TDK matures and hits his straps, and when Pitto becomes a force after recovering from injuries, then well, good on them. They being gifted games personally for being not that good. I personally want to keep the gifting to just one of them.

I think they are around the 10-15 mark. Both look statistically worse because they have to split ruck time.

None of the other top rucks bar Darcy and Jackson have to do that. If you think of Pitto and TDKs best games they were when the other was out of the team or they got to play main ruck (got the majority of ruck time).

I don't think either is capable of being a top 5 ruck in the comp while the other is playing. That said, the coaches will decide what's best for the team and that might be to play them both.

 

[Arr0w]

People bemoaning TDK and Pitto, one who hasn't reached maturity, the other being injured for most of his time at the club, yet we still finished top 3 this year

 

[JuddgementDay]

People bemoaning TDK and Pitto, one who hasn't reached maturity, the other being injured for most of his time at the club, yet we still finished top 3 this year

Amusing

Not bemoaning as such, more looking at optimal set up

TDK ruck 85%
Either JSOS or H (fwd ruck only) to cover the remaining

 

[Arr0w]

Not bemoaning as such, more looking at optimal set up

TDK ruck 85%
Either JSOS or H (fwd ruck only) to cover the remaining

That wasn't directed at you JD, more amused as to people over thinking our structure and or over rating the influence of ruckmen

Against the Demons in that final, up against Gawn who is recognised as an elite ruckman of the last decade, a combination of TDK and Pitto had a greater team input

That input could arguably be considered a strong contributing factor in our win

 

[JustOneTime]

No one bemoaning on this thread, just having a tactical discussion about supporter preferences on the ruck setup. Some people interpret it as betrayal of players, and others don't when players are called out as weak in their position. I totally accept that some don't like it. Personally, the ones that take it VERY personally rather than as a discussion topic tend to be a bit limited in explaining their point of view or simply stirring the pot.

 

[Arr0w]

No one bemoaning on this thread, just having a tactical discussion about supporter preferences on the ruck setup. Some people interpret it as betrayal of players, and others don't when players are called out as weak in their position. I totally accept that some don't like it. Personally, the ones that take it VERY personally rather than as a discussion topic tend to be a bit limited in explaining their point of view or simply stirring the pot.

Could you point out who has taken someone's point of view personally?

As for being limited in explaining a point of view, perhaps your content of playing the poster highlights a lack of depth and or limited in debating the subject topic